Someone is wearing leather armor +3 (+2 armor bonus, +3 enhancement) then they drink a potion of mage armor (+4 armor bonus), what would that persons AC be?
W/o figuring in anything else, 17
Someone is wearing leather armor +3 (+2 armor bonus, +3 enhancement) then they drink a potion of mage armor (+4 armor bonus), what would that persons AC be?
the leather armor +3 provides a higher Armor bonus (+5) and would not be affected by the mage armor as they do not stack.
W/o figuring in anything else, 17
So the Armor bonus of the leather is replaced by the spell but the enhancement bonus of the leather armor remains?
the leather armor +3 provides a higher Armor bonus (+5) and would not be affected by the mage armor as they do not stack.
Or the Enhancement bonus is added to whatever Armor bonus it is part of and the higher prevails? (+5 vs +4 in this case)
W/o figuring in anything else, 17
why would it be 17 ? the mage armor is not enhanced. the enhancement bonus to the leather would not apply to the mage armor.
W/o figuring in anything else, 17why would it be 17 ? the mage armor is not enhanced. the enhancement bonus to the leather would not apply to the mage armor.
They way I was looking at it is the armor bonuses don't stack, so the +4 from MA replaces the +2 from the leather armor. The +2 is still there, as is the +3 enhancement bonus, but it isn't counted. The higher of the 2 armor bonuses overwrites it. He's still wearing the armor though, so the enhancement bonus (+3) still counts. It's just off the top of my head, but that's how I would rule it. It's occasionally helpful to cast mage armor on someone wearing armor, as it's a force effect and applies to incorporeal touch attacks.
If I'm wrong, then I apologize.
Someone is wearing leather armor +3 (+2 armor bonus, +3 enhancement) then they drink a potion of mage armor (+4 armor bonus), what would that persons AC be?You've got it a mistaken.
He has a single armor bonus of +5 from the leather armor +3. (The enhancement is directly to the armor bonus, it's not separate).
The potion of mage armor has no effect it's bonus being overlapped by the leather. It does have one situational difference.
Mage Armor is force armor so incorporeal attacks do not bypass it the way they do the leather. In that case the character would receive the armor bonus from the potion as the leather armor bonus is not applicable in such attacks.
Ahh, I see. You're absolutely correct. I was wrong.
So, in the case of a touch attack, it would negate the entire +5 to AC granted by the leather armor +3? Or just the armor bonus would be negated and the enhancement bonus would still apply to your touch AC?
Also, where is this written?
I bring this into question since armor bonuses and enhancement bonuses are two different bonus types. In the case of the touch attack, it would go through the armor but I see the enhancement, being magic protection, as something that might stop that touch attack from getting through.
If that is true then why would you add the armor and enhance together when comparing vs another armor bonus?
This is something that has come up recently that requires some hard proof.
yes, a touch attack would deny the entire +5 to your AC as the +3 is an enhancement to the Armor bonus of the leather.
think of the enhancement bonus not as being a magical protection as much as a magical hardening of the armor. it doesn't prevent attacks from hitting you, but helps to stop them from poking you in the fleshy meats.
the enhancement bonus is the only way to add to an existing bonus. again, like above, think of it as a magical hardening of the base armor.
I'll try to find it in the rulebook.
Bonus (Enhancement)
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
here is a link to the site:
This is what I needed. Thank you.
"The information has been modified where necessary to apply to Pathfinder"
I just wish that Pathfinder had an official statement on it.
What happens if you cast Mage Armor (+4 AC) and then a cleric then casts Magic Vestment (+2 ac).
Would they stack, or do that not stack.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
What happens if you cast Mage Armor (+4 AC) and then a cleric then casts Magic Vestment (+2 ac).
Would they stack, or do that not stack.
Both spells grant armor bonuses in this case, One spell grants a flat armor bonus of +4, the other spell modified the armor bonus of a worn piece of armor or clothing.
So again, they are granting the same bonus so they would not stack. However one would protect against incorporeal attacks and the other would not, so the former bonus would apply in that case.
I'd allow it to stack. I can't say I'm right on this but Mage Armor provides you with force armor which magic vestment could enhance.
The spell Mage Armor doesn't come out and say it's armor but it implies that with the this sentence in my opinion. "Unlike mundane armor, mage armor entails no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction." The comparison is made to mundane armor for armor check penalties, speed and spell failure chance. If it's not armor then this would be an issue and this sentence wouldn't need to exist.
So I think Mage Armor is Armor and therefore Magic Vestment can enhance it.
Just my opinion here because it's not clear if that can be done. I think this a good FAQ question.
The OPs question:
The AC would be 15 (the spell mage armor would not change the AC)
Regarding Mage Armor vs Magic Vestment: Mage Armor does not (and should not) stack with armor worn by the target - but Magic Vestment can be cast on top of armor. The enhancement bonus granted by Magic Vestment does not stack with other enhancement bonuses though.
Ok... what i thought, but just double checking.
So Enchantment bonus count as armor bonus or shield bonus when added to such.
Natural Armor will stack with Armor and enchantment bonus ((why i do not know, but the rules say so... so going with that)).
Defection bonus will stack with anything. (except defection)
Luck bonus will stack with anything (except luck)
and i see a list, which i do not want to repeat....
Although at this rate, new bonus can be made up, just by giving them a different name, from the looks of it. :(
Oh well.
I'll mention that it is deflection bonuses, not defection bonuses. Changing alliances won't grant you any AC.
The responses that said mage armor and leather armor +3 result in AC 15 are correct, the mage armor will also apply to incorporeal touch attacks.
Something I've wondered...if your attack would be a touch attack regardless of corporeal/incorporeal status, is mage armor still effective against incorporeal versions of it?
I'll mention that it is deflection bonuses, not defection bonuses. Changing alliances won't grant you any AC.
The responses that said mage armor and leather armor +3 result in AC 15 are correct, the mage armor will also apply to incorporeal touch attacks.
Something I've wondered...if your attack would be a touch attack regardless of corporeal/incorporeal status, is mage armor still effective against incorporeal versions of it?
Mage armor has no affect on regular touch attacks.
Although it is slightly strange at first hearing:
Ghosts have a harder time touching you with mage armor on.
But normal folks cannot tell the difference.
The reason is that for ghosts its not really a "touch" attack per se, it is just that all physical armor, shield, etc have no bearing on a ghost and are thus discounted. Saying ghosts do touch attacks is a bit misleading in that regard. The mage armor is a force effect and thus the armor bonus generated by it is effective against ghosts which only ignore mundane physical defenses.
Mage armor has no affect on regular touch attacks.I'll mention that it is deflection bonuses, not defection bonuses. Changing alliances won't grant you any AC.
The responses that said mage armor and leather armor +3 result in AC 15 are correct, the mage armor will also apply to incorporeal touch attacks.
Something I've wondered...if your attack would be a touch attack regardless of corporeal/incorporeal status, is mage armor still effective against incorporeal versions of it?
Right, so here's my example. A 1st level ghost wizard. Casts shocking grasp. Touches 1st level human wizard with mage armor. Mage armor = effective? Or no?
|
Although at this rate, new bonus can be made up, just by giving them a different name, from the looks of it. :(
Oh well.
Oliver, you're making it too difficult. Bonuses of different type stack. Bonuses of same type don't stack with others of same type; there are exceptions (dodge, competence, maybe others). If they don't stack, you get the benefit of, at most, the best bonus of each type.
As for making up bonuses: Yes GM can, in capacity of designer, make new types. Players can certainly suggest new types, but as with most things, is up to GM.
thanks alot guys i've been going back and forth with some friends of mine about mage armor and regular armor and the truth of the matter paizo should put the restrictions in the spells like they did for a few others cuz in my hearts of hearts i do believe they stack cuz i understand that wearing a hide armor and then putting on scalemail dont stack but to wear hide armor then cast mage armor do stack its like having equipped a shield than casting the spell shield two totally different things but it they say it dont stack I for 1 dont understand how having a shield and having a force sheild dont stack a shield you strap on a force shield hovers in front of you
The armor is providing an armor bonus to AC and so is the mage armor. Since they are both providing an armor bonus you only get the highest one. Bonuses of the same type don't stack unless they are dodge bonuses, untyped bonuses from different sources, or circumstance bonuses.
|
|
So Enchantment bonus count as armor bonus or shield bonus when added to such.
So, there any rules that say this?
In general, magic armor protects
the wearer to a greater extent than nonmagical armor. Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1.
So, the +3 is an enhancement bonus, not an armor bonus, as far as I can see.
So Enchantment bonus count as armor bonus or shield bonus when added to such.So, there any rules that say this?
LordClammy already posted the relevant text regarding enhancement bonuses: "Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC..."
However, if you want the actual Core Rulebook quote, it's on pg. 179: "Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides."
|
|
So Enchantment bonus count as armor bonus or shield bonus when added to such.So, there any rules that say this?LordClammy already posted the relevant text regarding enhancement bonuses: "Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC..."
However, if you want the actual Core Rulebook quote, it's on pg. 179: "Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides."
And yet, according to the other part of the Core I quoted earlier, it doesn't, as well.
Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses).
Unfortunately, that makes it confusing, especially since your quote is from the Combat, not the Magic Item, section of the rulebook.
The 1st question by op, imo, the answer is that he gains +3 from leather enhancement, with the +4 from Mage Armor, as one is AC, the other Enhancement, and usually, the better overrides the worse.
Mage Armor does not say, word, or imply that it cannot be used over or on top of any former armor.
Actually, found the proper wording now I think, found under common terms in PFSRD.
"Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies."
Last line being the key.
The 1st question by op, imo, the answer is that he gains +3 from leather enhancement, with the +4 from Mage Armor, as one is AC, the other Enhancement, and usually, the better overrides the worse.
Mage Armor does not say, word, or imply that it cannot be used over or on top of any former armor.
Actually, found the proper wording now I think, found under common terms in PFSRD.
"Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies."
Last line being the key.
No Tyki,
You are missing that it's +3 Leather armor, which means it's actually +2 (Leather) +3 (Enhancement) = 5AC armor. Since 5AC > 4AC, the leather armor is used, not the mage armor. You can't separate the enhancement bonus from the armor it's cast on. It only enhances that specific set of armor. So, assuming the guy had a 10 Dex, he'd have an AC of 15, and a touch AC of 10.The mage armor would still affect incorporeal, so he'd have a 14 AC vs ghosts and other incorporeal creatures.
I would have to say we have an honest question here, due to the rules contradicting themselves as said by callarek and dragonchess player.
common sense would say that the leather armor is what is enhanced by the +3 bonus magic, and is therefore and +5 vs a +4 and we end up at AC 15, but the magic armor section of the rules say it is a different type of bonus that stacks, not a bonus that gets added. so we get +2 overridden by +4 and then +3 = AC 17
No Tyki,
You are missing that it's +3 Leather armor, which means it's actually +2 (Leather) +3 (Enhancement) = 5AC armor. Since 5AC > 4AC, the leather armor is used, not the mage armor. You can't separate the enhancement bonus from the armor it's cast on. It only enhances that specific set of armor. So, assuming the guy had a 10 Dex, he'd have an AC of 15, and a touch AC of 10.The mage armor would still affect incorporeal, so he'd have a 14 AC vs ghosts and other incorporeal creatures.
Right, except the tidbit I linked specifies that multiple bonuses of same origin take the best of two. I didn't see any texting that "The enhancement on an item is an exception to the rule above."
There neither isn't anything that the enhancement and armor bonuses are fused and locked together, only that because it now becomes a part of the armor, it does not work towards touch attacks.
Bonus Rule: Only better bonus of a given type works.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works.
Armor Bonus Rule: Stacks with bonuses other than Armor.
An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses.
Enhancement Bonus Rule: Take highest of all, does not work against touch.
Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
Together, the top rule says that you take best, the armor says you can stack it with other, does not state they are locked together as a single Bonus, ergo, you got two separate Bonuses to track, third rule again says that you take best bonus worn currently.
Leather armor gives +2 Armor bonus. +3 Enhancement bonus.
Now on top of that you wear a +4 Armor bonus. Since Armor Bonus does not state anything about overwriting, you default to the Bonus ruling, which says best takes lead, which is the +4 from Mage Armor.
+4 mage armor, +3 enhancement since you still wear the leather armor.
Edit:
Note, as Callarek linked:
Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses).
It says stacks, just like all the bonus ruling does. It says nowhere that they become a single bonus, and therefor compared as one vs a bonus from another source.
Tyki,
An Enhancement Bonus is not an enhancement bonus to the PERSON's AC, it's an Enhancement Bonus to the item that is enchanted. If it weren't, then you would only be able to have one Enhancement Bonus. Not One to Armor AC, one to Shield AC, and one to Natural AC.
Your argument has been done to death, and it's wrong. Go look up the threads on the subject.
An enhancement bonus is an enhancement bonus to the item it is enchanted into. The section of rules you are talking about that you quoted above is in regards to spells that can cast enhancement bonuses, such as Magical Vestment.
Enhancement Bonus Rule: Take highest of all, does not work against touch. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
Note the two bolded statements. The enhancement bonus to the Mage Armor spell in the above example is 0. It has no enhancement bonus. The leather armor has +3 enhancement bonus and no other enhancement bonus, so it takes the +3. If someone cast Magical Vestment on the leather armor, then it would have two enhancement bonuses, one +2, and one +3. It would choose the +3. The mage armor spell is not a valid target for magical vestment (not being worn clothes or armor).
You can't transfer the enhancement bonus from an object to another object. It only affects the object that's enchanted.
That's not entirely true, while you're showing your opinion, you haven't referred to any official text that shows otherwise.
The bonus rule clearly said that you take the better one, that was the pretext for ALL bonuses, not only enhancement bonuses.
Just like Mage Armor would have no effect unless it's to the force property, the enhancement effect from an inferior armor comes into play when affected, ie, when you are the victim of an attack roll.
The bolded example you gave is mentioned in occurance to touch attack, not overlapping armor.
Armor/shield bonus says:
"The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn't stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn't stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus."
It does not say that it nullifies a non-armor bonus effect on the inferior item, only that the armor does not stack.
I am able to back my opinion with text from the Bonus and Armor/shield section ruling. I'm not paraphrasing, and I'm not changing the meaning of the text.
Rule 1 says all effects stack unless they are from the same source, in which case, the superior source is the one counting (no mention that all effects on the inferior armor are gone).
UNLESS, it's Bracers of Armor, those you have a right on, because they, exception to the rule. These, and only these, back you up.
"If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning."
Find me the bolded text in Bonus rules, armor rules, enhancement rules, Mage Armor, and I will give you truckload of x-mass candy, until then, it is the single armor bonus source I've seen that makes another source cease to work INCLUDING effects on it. Bonus rules dictate unless a fresher source overrides them, if not, it default back to the original wording/ruling.
The rule reference you want is in Combat, specifically in how Armor Class (AC) is calculated. As noted, the standard formula to calculate AC is 10 + Armor Bonus + Shield Bonus + Dexterity Bonus + Other Bonus. Note also that Armor Bonus and Armor Class are specifically defined as two separate items. Armor, Shield, and Dexterity Bonus are defined in other sections, but this section has the following:
Other Modifiers: Many other factors modify your AC.
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
Deflection Bonus: Magical deflection effects ward off attacks and improve your AC.
Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC.
It specifically states that Enhancement Bonuses modify the Armor Bonus, whereas others (I included Deflection and Natural Armor for reference) modify Armor Class. As such, the interpretation in this thread that the Enhancement Bonus from magical armor will not stack with the Armor Bonus from mage armor is correct as the Enhancement is not modifying the target "armor" from the spell. Anecdotally, I can say I've played d20 since it was first released and the developers, both for 3.x and for Pathfinder, have always stated this position is correct.
Now see, that I can't argue against, thanks for taking the time to link me the text.