Isn't it just easier to not give them the time to craft? In the campaigns I am in I have never had more then a day off of adventuring, and most small towns don't have a magic shop.
It can make for an interesting universe, but makes some items such as scrolls improbable for spontaneous creation and likewise the same with wands, unless occasionally single chopsticks throughout the land become imbued with power.
The current game is kind of an odd ball. One of the players is the prince of a nation and the party spends, sometimes months, in one of the largest castle towns in the world.
Even in the previous game I ran for another group, while they didn't always have time to make items, they occasionally made time for it, knowing that I wouldn't artificially hurry them. At that time, I had complicated rules requiring questing for components and a very increased likelihood for curses. They only ever made a few, and only when they thought it was really important.
I still didn't like it and I never felt like it added much to the game. Picking magic items yourself for a character is less like strategy, and makes the game less satisfying for me.
Being able to take a few months off usually means your characters don't have any real goals, let them craft all they want, not like they have anything important to use it on
I guess I don't see what the meaningful difference is between
A) Letting the players buy or craft pretty much exactly the items they need to be competitive or
B) You arrange things such that they just happen to find exactly the items they need to be competitive.
Unless the point is that you're doing
C) The players don't remotely have the items they need to be as competitive as would be standard, so you compensate by throwing them much lower CR'd encounters across the board?
Banning crafting does make it so that you don't have to worry about how reduced cost craft impacts WBL, which seems to be a never ending source of conflict. In addition DM generated magic items can result in more differentiation than is typical under crafting PC.
As long as the PCs still get access to upgrades to the big 6 at roughly the normal time then it really doesn't change much.
One thing I'm tempted to do is go back to the 1e-2e model where instead of getting reduced price equipment as a result of crafting, crafting magic items results in XP gain. That helps explain all these hedge wizards crafting items all the time plus I don't have to deal with WBL issues. I also like it because it basically says "Do stuff in your downtime and you'll still gain XP".
Hey, if it’s working for your group and everyone was informed beforehand, great!
That said, if you are implementing this house rule based on an unsubstantiated belief that “cheap-o min/maxing” will take place unless you preemptive-strike those rules, I would ask you to reconsider and give your players a chance. It just seems to me like this is a over-reaction to a possibly nonexistent problem that potentially creates as many issues as it ‘solves’. The main ones that come first to mind are:
1. It discourages anyone from focusing on all but the most common weapons/armor.
2. Forestalling number one creates more work for you.
3. GM favoritism (perceived or real) is going to be a problem.
4. PCs end up carrying around magic items that they don’t use for anything more than a way to carry more GP with less encumbrance.
5. Forestalling number four creates the problem you were trying to avoid.
Banning crafting does make it so that you don't have to worry about how reduced cost craft impacts WBL, which seems to be a never ending source of conflict. In addition DM generated magic items can result in more differentiation than is typical under crafting PC.
As long as the PCs still get access to upgrades to the big 6 at roughly the normal time then it really doesn't change much.
One thing I'm tempted to do is go back to the 1e-2e model where instead of getting reduced price equipment as a result of crafting, crafting magic items results in XP gain. That helps explain all these hedge wizards crafting items all the time plus I don't have to deal with WBL issues. I also like it because it basically says "Do stuff in your downtime and you'll still gain XP".
+100, I think im gonna use this to encourage my players to RP while in downtime yet still feel good about it, I manage a group of 6, half of them like to RP, while the other half doesn't like it much (not to mention one of my players is a diva-type and monopolizes every rp).
I am the exact opposite. I expect PCs to make most of their magical items. If a magic item is for sale in my campaign, chances are it is cursed or fake.
Isn't it just easier to not give them the time to craft? In the campaigns I am in I have never had more then a day off of adventuring, and most small towns don't have a magic shop.
Unless you warned your players about this before starting the campaing (by telling them they shouldn't take any magic item creation feat in your fast-paced campaing) they may feel a little cheated. At least, this won't happen if you're just banning those same feats.
It's all the same really, but I wouldn't recommand to ban Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll. Those can be really handy at low levels and I don't think that they will mess with the balance of your game too much. Remember that it can be fun for the players to have their own tower/castle/shop/inn in their favored city where they can spend some time to craft new magical gears. Without any magic item creation feat, the PCs won't need a place of their own, because they won't need any laboratory, forge or library.
I guess if your complaint is that I under utilize the beastiary in favor of my home brewed and human encounters, and make up for the lower experience by giving points for role playing and ideas, than sure.
It's not a complaint on my part. If you're hand-crafting encounters and it works for you, I'm all for it.
I'm just puzzled when someone posts that they've dispensed with the magic mart and they're running a low magic campaign, but can't understand why standard adventure guidelines or APs keep throwing TPKs. Jacking with party magic seriously jacks with their power level, which requires that you compensate on the encounter end of the equation as well. Since you're doing that, it can work out great.
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If you're interested in running a game where magic is rarer, and PCs are less reliant on their equipment, you might want to take a look at adapting some things from Iron Heroes. At the very least, you could look at scaling defenses better, so that magic items aren't necessary to keep the PCs competitive with level-appropriate CRs.
Something else I would recommend is that you check out Fantasy Craft, which has some interesting rules for managing PC wealth, and limits on the magic items that players can own. It's better than it sounds...
Isn't it just easier to not give them the time to craft? In the campaigns I am in I have never had more then a day off of adventuring, and most small towns don't have a magic shop.Unless you warned your players about this before starting the campaing (by telling them they shouldn't take any magic item creation feat in your fast-paced campaing) they may feel a little cheated. At least, this won't happen if you're just banning those same feats.
It's all the same really, but I wouldn't recommand to ban Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll. Those can be really handy at low levels and I don't think that they will mess with the balance of your game too much. Remember that it can be fun for the players to have their own tower/castle/shop/inn in their favored city where they can spend some time to craft new magical gears. Without any magic item creation feat, the PCs won't need a place of their own, because they won't need any laboratory, forge or library.
It isn't when I DM, no player will take item creation feats because that usually means you aren't any stronger and you will probably die. We end up having to take whatever feat will counteract whatever weakness our DM is currently exploiting in our character.
if you want scribe scroll or brew potion you gotta be a wizard or alchemist.
Besides if we get downtime we get lazy and lose all reason to adventure except whatever coincidence problem the DM comes up with. Hardly realistic
...and their opponent is me.
I cringed when I read that.
Keep in mind that the WBL and Pathfinder in general assumes at least some magic item creation, otherwise there would little point in putting the feats in.
Keep in mind that the WBL and Pathfinder in general assumes at least some magic item creation, otherwise there would little point in putting the feats in.
No it doesn't. The game no more assumes that you will be crafting than it does that you will have mounted combat.
The proof is in the pudding as it were. Wizards get an item creation feat for free, as does the alchemist. The wizard gets bonus feats that can go to magic item creation or meta magic feats. They put in fully flushed out rules for item creation. They do this under the assumption that players will craft magic items, at the very least consumables. Where is the proof for your opinion?
*EDIT: They do assume you will have mounted combat, they put the rules in for it. Whether you do or not is up to you.
The proof is in the pudding as it were. Wizards get an item creation feat for free, as does the alchemist. The wizard gets bonus feats that can go to magic item creation or meta magic feats. They put in fully flushed out rules for item creation. They do this under the assumption that players will craft magic items, at the very least consumables. Where is the proof for your opinion?
*EDIT: They do assume you will have mounted combat, they put the rules in for it. Whether you do or not is up to you.
The fact that most classes don't get crafting for free. The fact that non-casters have a hard time crafting at all. The fact that wizards aren't required to play pathfinder and alchemists were written after the WBL. Making wealth by level partially based on crafting, which you may or may not even have, is absurd. The real question is where is your proof? I'm not making the claim, you are. You better come up with a better reason than "but some classes can do it" if you want to convince anyone.
And no mounted combat is not assumed. That's also absurd. Options are just that, options. If the rules assume that you will be doing something, than it is no longer an option.
Every class CAN craft magic items, though it is meant for casters. No, you do not have to play casters, but you will have trouble otherwise because a balanced party assumes: offensive caster, defensive caster, warrior/tank, rogue/utility.
You are making a claim, your claim is that the rules do not assume that you will craft magic items.
This is a roleplaying game, not a board game. You do not have to do what is assumed (players rarely do).
The rules exist and the game has to be balanced for it.
and it is not "but some classes can do it", it is "because any class can and the wizard and alchemist do".
Also, you are the one not making an effective argument based on that you are attacking my claims, not presenting your own.
In my Serpent skull game I haven't banned item creation outright, but I have strongly recommended that my player's don't take those feats for several reasons.
First off I wanted to have a survival feel in the AP, and I felt that by creating everything they needed it would mitigate that aspect of the game. Second I find it boring when players can just make whatever they want as it takes away the wonder of discovery.
I don't have anything against crafting of non permanent items like wands and potions, and I allow shopping for magical items as I feel the GP limit of most cities(and that there is only 75% they would have items within that price range anyway)limits what the characters can buy sufficiently to not take away the magic of finding most medium and major items at least.
I play in a Kingmaker game and we've had basically unlimited downtime to craft stuff, and our wizard has taken almost every craft feat in the game. As a result almost every character has the best available items in every item slot at our level. I haven't found a permanent item I have kept since level 5 or so and now we are level 10. It has removed all sense of wonder and discovery from magical items for me which is why I have tried to convince my players to stay away from crafting in my Campaign.
Rebuttal
The rules do make many assumptions. For instance the rules do assume that you will be able to deal damage. If the rules however ASSUMED that you would be able to craft, then the wealth by level was created with that in mind, than you no longer have the option of not crafting in order to stay within those guidelines. The rules only assume that you will acquire a certain amount of wealth per level. That's it. It makes absolutely no assumptions about how or where the wealth will be acquired. Crafting is one possibility, but it is certainly not assumed.
Claiming that "classes CAN do it" or that "certain classes WILL do it" hasn't demonstrated anything in support of you argument.
Rebuttal** spoiler omitted **
Okay whether or not either of you is right you argument is weak. WBL assumes players pick up gold and treasure along their journey, Unfortunately for your argument this is also optional. So some optional things have to be assumed in cases like this
Okay whether or not either of you is right you argument is weak. WBL assumes players pick up gold and treasure along their journey, Unfortunately for your argument this is also optional. So some optional things have to be assumed in cases like thisRebuttal** spoiler omitted **
It takes a hell of stretch of the imagination to assume that players won't be getting wealth. You might as well assume they won't be getting experience. This is nonsense.
It takes a hell of stretch of the imagination to assume that players won't be getting wealth. You might as well assume they won't be getting experience. This is nonsense.Okay whether or not either of you is right you argument is weak. WBL assumes players pick up gold and treasure along their journey, Unfortunately for your argument this is also optional. So some optional things have to be assumed in cases like thisRebuttal** spoiler omitted **
for one, it is still OPTIONAL and for two there have been way more then a few times where members of my party have thrown any wealth they receive at either peasants or random places just to see what happens. You cant say it is nonsense for this to be optional but assuming wizards wont take the best feats they can take isnt
** spoiler omitted **
+1 I'm out
I haven't felt like the "sense of wonder"(tm) with magical items since 2e.
Because magical items are now an expected utility, like getting a better gun in a video-game, and the magical items hardly inspires awe anymore. Playing a Str 16 fighter finding a Belt of Giant Strength? A joke compared to it's predecessor. At best it is a +3 increase to hit and damage, while before it was multiples of this. Why? Because 2e didn't give a rat's buttocks about "balance". Now you just kinda need it to scale in usefulness. Once "balance" entered the issue, items had to take a back-seat in power, and thus follows the decrease in "wonder".
This also creates the basis for the flip side of the argument:
What if the AP doesn't give out a certain group of items? Is it OK that the fighter never gets a decent magical suit of armor and fails at his job, because he has 5 less AC than expected by CR? Is it OK that the rogue is barred from usefulness because there are no items mitigating the poorly acaled skill system? Is it OK that ONE martial character gets a sweet weapon/item/maguffin that makes his viable in combat, while the other stands back and wallows in his uselessness?
@Mortagon: Sure, kingmaker allows you to take much more advantage of item creation, but that's the fault of the campaign, and not the system. And the reason you don't remember any cool items you picked up is because there was none. There was the fey-bane that was pretty spiffy at the level you found it, but that's about it. If I denied you the item creation feats, you'd be walking around in mundane steel store-bought +1/+2 armor and +1 shields and swinging the +2 defending/+2 fey-bane swords at lv12.
What if the AP doesn't give out a certain group of items? Is it OK that the fighter never gets a decent magical suit of armor and fails at his job, because he has 5 less AC than expected by CR? Is it OK that the rogue is barred from usefulness because there are no items mitigating the poorly acaled skill system? Is it OK that ONE martial character gets a sweet weapon/item/maguffin that makes his viable in combat, while the other stands back and wallows in his uselessness?
When I DM, I usually ask for a wish list from the players, and drop those items in as appropriate. Removes some of the randomness, but guarantees that the players get what they need, even if none of them can craft magic items.
Isn't it just easier to not give them the time to craft? In the campaigns I am in I have never had more then a day off of adventuring, and most small towns don't have a magic shop.
That doesn't work any more. Even given the oddness of going from a first level no one to epic before the sorcerer has to start shaving, there are rules for creating magic items while adventuring for DM's that pull this sort of cheese.
I think the question here is WHY are people banning magic item creation? Do they feel the rules make it too easy to get their hands on very powerful items? Is it that they're effectively doubling the parties wealth? Or is it a control thing: you don't like that the party is selecting the items that THEY feel fits and helps their character, rather than what the DM thinks they need?
I know pathfinder society had to ban magic item creation, but i think that's just to level the playing field accross a number of different tables
Been there and I'm still doing that, I'm sorry to say. I game at a table where both GMs are not very knowledgeable about the crafting rules. One has upped the ante for making magical items in his homebrewed world into the "ultra-rare" category, while the other has to be reminded that crafting costs are only 1/2 listed costs each time. It is only in published modules that I am allowed to craft at all. One player still argues the "wands are merely spell capacitors, it takes 50 spells to make a wand, so it takes 50 days" nonsense (don't get me started).
I realize that even with the mathematical advantages of 3.0+, magical item creation still has a gaping plot hole in the middle of it, and I've spent quite a lot of role-playing time getting the materials to make stuff. Even when it's solely for another person; if I try to make a magical item just for myself, the rest of the table, GM included, seems determined to not let me have that much time, or a stable location, to do any magical item creation at all. I get these blank looks and people asking me "But why do you want to make a Wand of Cure Light Wounds?"
Too many players are in the "plunder it, don't make it" category. Like a long video game.
I think the question here is WHY are people banning magic item creation? Do they feel the rules make it too easy to get their hands on very powerful items? Is it that they're effectively doubling the parties wealth? Or is it a control thing: you don't like that the party is selecting the items that THEY feel fits and helps their character, rather than what the DM thinks they need?
Easy magic item selection, whether via item creation or purchase at Ye Olde Magic Mart, is what leads to the Big 6 problem. Before 3e made obtaining specific magic items so easy, there wasn't much of a Big 6 problem. Yes, people wanted rings/cloaks of protection, good ACs, magic weapons, stat-boosting girdles of giant strength/gloves of dexterity, but hardly anybody could pursue them as a rational strategy simply by selling off quirkier and more mysterious magic items the DM put in treasure hoards.
Honestly, not many people keep a ring of shooting stars in 3e when you can easily turn around and sell it to fund an item that gives you a consistent bonus all the time.
I don't like infinite magic idea of magic item creation. As it just cost gold and time. Since magic items are durable wouldn't this mean eventually everything would be magical. Doesn't make much sense to me. I like to put finite limit on magic items. Meaning if you want to create magic items you need magic to do so. You can take magic from other items to create better items or you can find source magic. So basically what this does is if a player wants to craft magic items it usually takes a quest for magical components. Like maybe you need the blood of power magical creature like dragon. Makes creating adventures easy.
Easy magic item selection, whether via item creation or purchase at Ye Olde Magic Mart, is what leads to the Big 6 problem.
I think that's a very common misconception. What leads to the big six problem is that 1) The big six are so incredibly useful 2) Wealth by level and the fact that anything outside the big six is exorbitantly expensive for the bonus it provides. Why would you spend 7.2 k on a folding boat instead of a +2 weapon? If you're at the level where 7.2k is a viable purchase then water is no longer a problem for you.
The solution isn't to beat players down for taking what is far and away the most optimal option, the solution is to make items outside of the big six viable options: currently they are not. Without re structuring the entire wbl system or the prices for everything, in a campaign you can
1) Ignore things outside the big six in terms of wbl
2) Make it so that there's no real market for most wonderous items, or that they are bought at 1/4 or 1/8th of the price instead of 1/2. This should encourage players to keep the ones the dm drops in their lap.
Honestly, not many people keep a ring of shooting stars in 3e when you can easily turn around and sell it to fund an item that gives you a consistent bonus all the time.
Why should they? If the system as it is doesn't make the ring worth it of course they're going to get rid of it.
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I know pathfinder society had to ban magic item creation, but i think that's just to level the playing field accross a number of different tables
It was banned for the following reasons.
1. The variety of items available for purchase via Adventure Paths and PA awards make item creation pretty much unneccessary.
2. How would like to be the guy responsible for handling magic item creation in a campaign of thousands of players? I didn't think so.
MIC is simply not practical for a Network campaign. And a properly run campain makes MIC not needed.
I don't like infinite magic idea of magic item creation. As it just cost gold and time. Since magic items are durable wouldn't this mean eventually everything would be magical. Doesn't make much sense to me.....So basically what this does is if a player wants to craft magic items it usually takes a quest for magical components. Like maybe you need the blood of power magical creature like dragon. Makes creating adventures easy.
As long as encounters are +3 levels above the party's average player level, most spellcasters are going to run out of spells, including the buffing spells. Especially if GMs throw more than one encounter per day at the party, or they're under some kind of time limit.
Wands help with low-level favorite spells: Magic Missile, Protection against Evil, Cure Light Wounds, Enlarge Person, etc. These are one-day wands, but can be costly.
Rings, clothing, staffs, etc help with high-level spells. Once one member of the party can do Teleport, then the time to use it is just before the TPK, not during the TPK. It will take the sole spellcaster 49 days to make Boots of Teleportation, but it will beat drawing straws to see who in the party gets left behind because of the teleporter's weight limit. Let the spellcaster have the time and party gold to make the boots, everyone. The fighter can grab one or two people while all three are bleeding out and teleport with the boots, letting the spellcaster get the ones in the rear to teleport out.
I've been at tables were everyone blinks at each other and goes "How did that TPK happen?" while I'm cursing for a Brooch of Shielding or a Wand of Magic Missile. A night of bad die rolls can be overcome by magical items!
2. How would like to be the guy responsible for handling magic item creation in a campaign of thousands of players? I didn't think so.
MIC is simply not practical for a Network campaign. And a properly run campain makes MIC not needed.
Eh, they made it work in Living Greyhawk.
That being said, I think the changes vs. that to how wealth is handled in PFS dramatically simplify bookkeeping and aren't at all a bad thing.
Lets look at the ring of shooting stars as an example.
Ring of Shooting Stars
Aura strong evocation; CL 12th
Slot ring; Price 50,000 gp; Weight —
*At 50 k, you really can't afford this until 12th level
Description
This ring has two modes of operation: one for being in dim light or outdoors at night, and a second one when the wearer is underground or indoors at night.
During the night, under the open sky or in areas of shadow or darkness, the ring of shooting stars can perform the following functions on command.
* Dancing lights (once per hour)
* Light (twice per night)
*Ok, so IF its nightime you can cast dancing lights or light... something you casters can do every. single. round. at no cost. So this is fairly worthless.
* Ball lightning (special, once per night)
* Shooting stars (special, three per week)
The first special function, ball lightning, releases one to four balls of lightning (ring wearer's choice). These glowing globes resemble dancing lights, and the ring wearer controls them similarly (see the dancing lights spell description). The spheres have a 120-foot range and a duration of 4 rounds. They can be moved at 120 feet per round. Each sphere is about 3 feet in diameter, and any creature who comes within 5 feet of one causes its charge to dissipate, taking electricity damage in the process according to the number of balls created.
Number of Balls Damage per Ball
1 lightning ball 4d6 points of electricity damage
2 lightning balls 3d6 points of electricity damage each
3 lightning balls 2d6 points of electricity damage each
4 lightning balls 1d6 points of electricity damage each
Once the ball lightning function is activated, the balls can be released at any time before the sun rises. Multiple balls can be released in the same round.
* So ... 4d6 damage at level 12? That's hardly worth an action at that point.
The second special function produces three shooting stars that can be released from the ring each week, simultaneously or one at a time. They impact for 12 points of damage and spread (as a fireball) in a 5-foot-radius sphere for 24 points of fire damage.
Any creature struck by a shooting star takes full damage from impact plus full fire damage from the spread unless it makes a DC 13 Reflex save.
*... a dc 13 reflex save at level 12 or higher? What good is that?
Creatures not struck but within the spread ignore the impact damage and take only half damage from the fire spread on a successful DC 13 Reflex save. Range is 70 feet, at the end of which the shooting star explodes unless it strikes a creature or object before that. A shooting star always follows a straight line, and any creature in its path must make a save or be hit by the projectile.
Indoors at night, or underground, the ring of shooting stars has the following properties.
* Faerie fire (twice per day)
*this is, sadly, probably the ring's most useful ability... a first level spell. It does help against invisible foes though, which is very situational. Unfortunately it doesn't always work in some circumstances... so you need to be fighting an invisible creature at night indoors or underground.
* Spark shower (special, once per day)
The spark shower is a flying cloud of sizzling purple sparks that fan out from the ring for a distance of 20 feet in an arc 10 feet wide. Creatures within this area take 2d8 points of damage each if not wearing metal armor or carrying a metal weapon. Those wearing metal armor and/or carrying a metal weapon take 4d8 points of damage.
average of 17 points of damage.. if everyone's wearing metal. Very very VERY low damage.
Construction
Requirements Forge Ring, faerie fire, fireball, light, lightning bolt; Cost 25,000 gp
So, besides the dm FORCING their characters to have half their wealth by level sunk into one pathetic item, what on earth would possibly make this a viable option? A DM shouldn't be at war with their players. If the DM wants players to hold onto the "cooler" items he shouldn't be forcing them.
A part of the issue for me is the flavor of the game worlds I enjoy running. In the end, the setting will reflect the system. If every rogue of note has a ring of invisibility, then everyone guarding something important will have glasses of see invisibility. While this is awesome in it's own way, being no different than active camo and special optics in Ninjas and Superspies or Shadowrun, I don't think it should be ported into a fantasy game unless you plan to go all the way with it.
I care a lot about the internal logic of my game worlds.
There is another thread on here where someone was asking for ideas on making tech into magic items for a super high fantasy game, which is interesting to me because it feels like the implied Pathfinder setting to me.
You can care a lot about internal logic but reed wealth by level rules a NPC Rouge would need be 16 - 18 level there not that many running around in a world. Or that many Ring of Invisibility.
I do not think having no crafting is not that big a deal. But players need to have wealth by level so that they challenge Level Correct CR.. If not you as he GM have to really need to adjust opponents. Not only total but spread out across all type. Weapons, Defenses, Utility, extra.
It gives you help so in case you forget some type of item that party needs they can make it. You control the down time. And spell accesses need to craft.
What about the fire and forget items one shot items Ie Scroll, wands, Potions.
What about bonus feats for wizards?
True with out crafting I would never play Wizard I would only play Scorers.
Wizard with out Scrolls or pearls of power just pales.
Do not get in to the mind set that it you against the party. Causes then you fall in to arms race the GM all ways wins. And as player I do not want to waste my time traveling, playing, or be a way form my family for night or afternoon. D&D if played by the rules PC should win. It 4 on 1.
I know pathfinder society had to ban magic item creation, but i think that's just to level the playing field accross a number of different tables
It was banned for the following reasons.
1. The variety of items available for purchase via Adventure Paths and PA awards make item creation pretty much unnecessary.
- What happens when someone wants something unusual, like a magical elven curve blade or an amulet of mighty fists that deals cold and acid damage?
2. How would like to be the guy responsible for handling magic item creation in a campaign of thousands of players? I didn't think so.
- If you banned custom items i don't see the problem.
What looks like would be a problem is people making things well above their level. The dm at one table might look away when the wizard makes something they could only make on a natural 20, or the fighter makes his magic sword with the aid of the party member's craftman's fortune active (the apg spell that adds to a craft roll) It would also create a disparity between characters when some of them lost their gold attempting to make items and some of them pulled the natural 20 to make something above their level.
MIC is simply not practical for a Network campaign. And a properly run campain makes MIC not needed.Exactly what about a "properly run" campaign would make magical item creation unnecessary? Is the party supposed to just stumble across exactly what they need and want?
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2. How would like to be the guy responsible for handling magic item creation in a campaign of thousands of players? I didn't think so.
MIC is simply not practical for a Network campaign. And a properly run campain makes MIC not needed.
Eh, they made it work in Living Greyhawk.
No it didn't. it was so much a nightmare they went to the AR system that PFS uses got rid of the whole certs thing, and banned MIC afterwards.
No it didn't. it was so much a nightmare they went to the AR system that PFS uses got rid of the whole certs thing, and banned MIC afterwards.
Uh, when did that happen? There was MIC for at least, what, 5 years of the AR system.
Granted, I missed the last year or two of the campaign.