How does reloading work in this case?
Assume that you have two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and rapid reload.
How does reloading work in this case?
Assume that you have two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and rapid reload.
Benefit: Reloading a firearm with an already filled box magazine or speed loader is a free action. Reloading a revolver without a speed loader, or reloading any firearm with an internal magazine, is a move action.
Normal: Reloading a firearm with an already filled box magazine or speed loader is a move action. Reloading a revolver without a speed loader, or reloading any firearm with an internal magazine, is a full-round action.
Copied from d20 Modern SRD
Use this instead of rapid reload for firearms. I'd allow the player to reload both weapons (without sheathing) as a round action; with quick draw, I'd rule a standard action. Quick draw, all the above feats, and speed loaders applied, maybe a move action.
The rules have always been vague about this level of firearm combat. Most GMs would probably require the player to sheath a weapon in order to reload the other; I'd just "double" the amount of time required.
How does reloading work in this case?
Assume that you have two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and rapid reload.
Currently it doesn't -- you'll have to put one gun somewhere to reload the other, and then switch. With a weapon cord on your revolvers you could drop one, reload the other, swift action to get the one you dropped back in your hands, drop the loaded one (I know this would be insane IRL, but still) load the second one, swift action to get the loaded one back.
All in all complicated no matter how you go about it, and will probably take multiple turns. You would be better off with multiple pistols honestly.
Read the Dark Tower, use Roland's quick loading technique for his revolvers; whip open the chambers and flow the bullets down your wrists onto your hands into the revolver lol. Remember too that certain revolvers have "cartridges" that already have a full load of bullets attached to it so that the empty cartridge is dropped out automatically and a full new cart can be popped in, off your belt of with the fingers not holding the revolvers at the moment.in just as much time as it takes to pop a mag into a pistol. Also you can hold the revolvers with just a pinky finger if you want, without need to tie straps to the guns, although thats not a bad idea either.
Karl I think what you are referring to as "cartridges" are actually speed loaders. A speed loader holds a cylinder's worth of bullets at their base so that when the cylinder is open all you have to do is line up the bullets with the chambers and push the quick release button.
However such things would be of limited use for "cap and ball" firearms since you still have to place the cap on the pin outside of the chamber.
In the end it wouldn't matter unless your GM allows you to do so since by RAW (currently) the method of loading and firing are pretty much preset.
Well thank you Abraham you are very correct :) I was not thinking of "cap and ball" ammo being used.
Revolver What kind.
Cylinder (holds 6) or Clip (hold 6-15) or Musket (holds 1)?
This based off Hand Pistols, Western guns, Modern guns, ??
The rules as they stand definately require you to have a free hand (putting away or dropping one of the revolvers) But I would allow a feat tree to help a 2weapon gunfighter to work out his realoading. Within a fantasy world where you can fire 10 arrows in 6 seconds, it stands to reason that someone could reload 2 revolvers rapidly as well (such as with Roland's finger trick in the dark tower).
These are a pair of talents from my homebrew gunslinger class based on the dark tower series, but there is no reason you cant turn them into feats for your game:
Finger Trick: A gunslinger is taught a trick that allows him to reload his gun rapidly and efficiently. A gunslinger with this talent may reload his gun as a swift action and does not require a free hand to do so
Double Finger Trick:
A gunslinger has greatly improved at the finger trick. He can reload both his guns with a single swift action.
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Finger Trick
Revolver What kind.
Cylinder (holds 6) or Clip (hold 6-15) or Musket (holds 1)?
This based off Hand Pistols, Western guns, Modern guns, ??
I mean the ones in the PF Campaign Setting.
Oh well, I do not have that Reference material on hand.
Wish ya good luck then
I made a quick little archetype for my player who wants to dual-wield revolvers.
Gunslinger
The gunslinger has perfected the deadly use of firearms, a cruelly efficient weapon, as a craftsman mastering a lethal tool.
Quick Reload (Ex)
At 3rd level, a gunslinger can reload his firearm rapidly and efficiently. Flintlock weapons and revolvers now require a move action to reload. Percussion cap weapons can reload a single shot as a swift action.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1.
Firearms Expert (Ex)
At 5th level, a gunslinger gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with firearms. This bonus increases by +1 per four levels after 5th
This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.
Advanced Reload (Ex)
At 7th level, a gunslinger is able to reload firearms at an amazing speed. All firearms can be reloaded as a swift action. However, both hands must be used to reload a firearm.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2.
Ricochet (Ex)
At 9th level, a gunslinger may, as a standard action, attempt to angle a single shot off a hard surface (stone, metal, brick, etc.) to hit an opponent who has full cover or concealment. In order to accomplish this attack, the gunslinger must either see (via a reflected image) or pinpoint the intended target by sound. The attack is made at a -4 modifier to hit, but the target does not benefit from cover or concealment from the attack.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 2.
Reload Mastery (Ex)
At 11th level, a gunslinger can reload his weapons with blinding speed. He now only needs one hand to fully reload a firearm. If the gunslinger is using two one-handed or light firearms, he can reload both firearms with a single swift action.
This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
Safe Shot (Ex)
At 13th level, a gunslinger does not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks with a firearm.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 3.
Pinpoint Targeting (Ex)
At 15th level, a gunslinger gains Pinpoint Targeting as a bonus feat.
This ability replaces Armor Training 4.
Trick Shot (Ex)
At 17th level, as a standard action, a gunslinger can make one attack with a firearm at a –4 penalty. If the attack hits, it inflicts damage normally and the target is subject to a bull rush, a disarm, or a trip maneuver using the attack roll as the combat maneuver check. The gunslinger must decide which maneuver to attempt before making his attack roll.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 4.
Penetrating Shot (Ex)
At 19th level, when a gunslinger confirms a critical hit with a firearm, the bullet pierces the target and can strike another creature in line behind it. The gunslinger must be able to trace a line starting at his space and passing through both targets to make this additional attack. The secondary attack is made at a –4 penalty, in addition to any modifiers for added range. If this attack is also a critical hit, the bolt can continue to hit another target, but the penalties stack.
This ability replaces Armor Mastery.
Weapon Mastery (Ex)
A gunslinger must choose a type of firearm for his Weapon Mastery class feature.
Revolver What kind.
Cylinder (holds 6) or Clip (hold 6-15) or Musket (holds 1)?
This based off Hand Pistols, Western guns, Modern guns, ??
If it's a revolver then we can safely say it will not have a magazine and it isn't a musket.
Cylinders come in many sizes beyond 6 (6 and 5 are the most common though) -- Several famous models come in anything between 3~7 and if I recall correctly (and I very well may not) the highest ammunition count in a revolver was 13 shots -- but again I could very well be wrong on that point.
In real life, speed loading a revolver can take a fraction of a second if you train at (google worlds fastest shot)
Two is trickier. Basically you tuck one under your armpit while you load the other (make sure you're wearing something thick so you dont burn yourself on the barrel.)
You can even speed load with one hand with a simple belt attachment. You jack knife the gun, dump the casings, drag the gun along your belt to drive in the speed loader that's sitting and waiting on it's handy dandy belt attachment, thumb the release and whip the gun up to close it. With practice you could just alternate hands. This works only one or two decent reloads on each side. there's only so much usable space on a belt.
my personal solution is the Boondock Saints/Matrix special. Screw reloading all together. Just carry lots of guns strapped to yourself. Drop them when they're empty and quickdraw another. Pick them all up and reload them after the fight.
In terms of mechanics, they dont exist currently. It's up to your GM, which is why my choice on the matter avoids reloading all together. No reason to dump a feat or two on something so avoidable.
I'd be interested to see a discussion of whether/how 2 weapon fighting stacks with rapid shot when using two guns.
I'd be interested to see a discussion of whether/how 2 weapon fighting stacks with rapid shot when using two guns.
Rapid shot states you get one extra shot, and all attacks take a -2 penalty.
So that's all you would get from it. Because you are fighting two handed though you would get the extra attacks (and penalties) from doing that as well.
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High Standard Double 9, holds 9 shots.
Don't forget that many western style revolvers did not have cylinders that flipped out. you had to empty and reload each round one by one.
EDIT:Not trying to say the Double 9 is the largest ammo capacity, just giving an example of a revolver that has more than 6 rounds.
You may want to consider top breaking pistols like the British Webley or American Schofield (sp) which might be another option for your character.
High Standard Double 9, holds 9 shots.
Don't forget that many western style revolvers did not have cylinders that flipped out. you had to empty and reload each round one by one.
EDIT:Not trying to say the Double 9 is the largest ammo capacity, just giving an example of a revolver that has more than 6 rounds.
True many western revolvers require they be reloaded one bullet at a time into a small chamber on the right side of the internal cylinder, popping the empty shell out the other side if using shelled rounds.
I made a quick little archetype for my player who wants to dual-wield revolvers.
** spoiler omitted **...
You forgot the ability to count one "true" minute.
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I agree with Abraham even with an auto you need two hands to change clips in a pistol. So with a revolver it is even more involved.
This is patently false. For those trained in such matters, like myself, reloading a pistol can quickly and efficiently be accomplished with 1 hand. It does however, require one to holster or "stow" the firearm as that hand then removes and exchanges a magazine (talking about semi-auto pistols here like a Glock, H&K, or Sig). Once the magazine is exchanged, you will either have to rack the round by using your belt or pocket opening along with your rear sight aperture, or if the slide is already in the rear position, just hit the slide release and there you go. The entire process takes roughly 5 seconds. I could probably do it faster, but if you are reduced to reloading with one hand, things are already pretty dire by my estimation.
With revolvers, it is basically the same, with some minor adjustments due to the nature of the firearm. The process does take a little longer though. As it pertains to Pathfinder though, for balance sake, some restrictions should be mandated.
This is patently false.
+1
There's quite a few methods for reloading and automatic with one hand.
Same is true for revolvers, though as I mentioned earlier, you need a mechanical gimic to do it quickly and easily.
I'm pretty sure those mechanics don't involve reloading the pistol with just the SAME HAND THAT'S HOLDING THE GUN.
They do if the mechanical device holds the gun for you -- like a holster. I've seen break open holsters (holsters that will hold a revolver with the cylinder disengaged and "open") before -- not common, and would be a bit bulky but definitely workable. Combined with a speed loader I very much believe that a person could quickly reload a revolver.
I'm pretty sure those mechanics don't involve reloading the pistol with just the SAME HAND THAT'S HOLDING THE GUN.
The device I'm talking about doesn't hold the gun for you. It holds the bullets, in a circle, face up. Like a speed loader facing upward attached to your belt by an L bracket.
You just pop open the cylinder, dump your spent rounds and then bring your gun down, cylinder open, barrel up, onto the speed loader. The cylinder depresses the release as the bullets slide in, loosing the bullets but still supporting them from below so they don't just fall. You then simply tip the the barrel forward and down. now all the bullets are in the cylinder and the loader is empty. a flick of the wrist to close the cylinder again and you're ready to rock\. The whole process takes about 2 or 3 seconds once you get used to it, and can be done with one hand without ever letting go of the gun..
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One thing to keep in mind, the current firearms rules don't involve cartridge weapons, we're still looking at 18th century or earlier single shot flintlock type guns. What you're describing pretty much looks like it would take at least a standard action. Remember a full round is six seconds.
I agrree with you. Based on late 17th and 18th century designs, I would even go so far to say that it takes 10 full round actions for an untrained shooter and 2 full round actions for a trained shooter to reload such guns. Most experts in such matters would agree that ~1 minute is really expert level reloading ability with such weapons. So, for Pathfinder, I'd say my suggestion above is really generous.
Hmm... Why not make a magic bullet pouch that teleport new rounds into the gun? (and the old ones out)
Look at the Outlaw Josey Wales - there's a scene where he swaps out the entire cylinder on at least one revolver. Swap out fired cylinder for a loaded cylinder using cap-n-ball ammo.
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On a side note, PFS pre gen gunslinger used two pistols to make two attacks. They aren't TWF attacks but iterative ones, but if you can not reload your guns while having both guns out, that character would...umm kinda fail to work in a major way. I know by RAW you can't. But yeah, another example of PF kinda needs to get their internal rule system in order...but also possible an example of maybe you are suppose to be able to load pistols with one in each hand.