Hero points and taking 20

[Kheotour]

Is it possible to use a hero point to get a +8 when you are taking 20? My group is saying no (they claim that since you know what the roll is you can not use a hero point to get +8). But they think that you can use the hero point to get a +4. I was curious if any of you have come across this before.

[Elven_Blades]

Kheotour wrote:

Is it possible to use a hero point to get a +8 when you are taking 20? My group is saying no (they claim that since you know what the roll is you can not use a hero point to get +8). But they think that you can use the hero point to get a +4. I was curious if any of you have come across this before.

Wow, thats a tricky one, I don' even have an opinion on it. The wording states +8 before your roll, +4 after. But if you take 20, you haven't even rolled...

Since you are in a situation where you have plenty of time anyway (cuz take 20 takes so long anyway), just try without the point first and see what happens. If you don't get it, argue that since no roll is made, you get +6.

I suppose you could argue that since take 20 reads "just calculate your check as if you had rolled a 20", you could get thie +4 after finding out that take 20 wasn't good enough, or take 20 again and apply the hero point before you "roll".

[Mahorfeus]

When you take 20, the game is essentially assuming that you rolled repeatedly until you got a 20. You might not have actually rolled, but the nature of taking 20 assumes that you did. So you would only get the +4.

[Ross Byers]

Removed some random edition wars posting.

[Papa-DRB]

Assuming you are talking about the BONUS:

Bonus: If used before a roll is made, a hero point grants you a +8 luck bonus to any one d20 roll. If used after a roll is made, this bonus is reduced to +4.

My take on this is you can NOT take 20 (or even 10). You either a) spend the hero point, declare you want the +8 and then roll, or b) you roll and then spend the hero point for +4.

-- david
Papa.DRB

ps. Notice is says "any ONE d20 roll"

[Xaaon of Korvosa]

Remember that take 20 assumes you rolled enough times to get a 20. Thus it's equal to 20 rolls not a single roll, thus in my games I would disallow it.

from the PRD:

Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you a d20 roll enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).

Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).

[Elven_Blades]

Since taking 20 means you essentially rolled a bunch of times until you got it right, you could say that when you did get it right, ( that is, when you theoretically rolled that 20 ) is when you applied the hero point for +4.

[Raging Hobbit]

My bad

[Troubleshooter]

Elven_Blades wrote:

Since taking 20 means you essentially rolled a bunch of times until you got it right, you could say that when you did get it right, ( that is, when you theoretically rolled that 20 ) is when you applied the hero point for +4.

Seconded.

If the players run into a situation where a natural 20 will still fail, and you disallow them to Take 20 and apply the +4, then they retain the power to do it the old fashioned way and just roll over and over until they actually get a 20. Then spend the point. Meaning, mechanically, they've done the exact same thing but spent a lot longer doing it than was necessary.

So, with no irony whatsoever, the reason (besides inherent validity) that you should allow them to spend a Hero Point for the +4 when Taking 20 is because it's faster than rolling.