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If a rogue strikes someone for sneak attack damage and 1d4 bleed damage (via the bleeding attack rogue talent) does the rogue roll 1d4 and the victim takes that static amount of bleed damage round after round? Or does the victim take 1d4 bleed damage in each round (so one round might deal 1 damage and another deals 4)?
If a rogue strikes the same target again with bleeding attack, the victim takes the higher bleed damage from the two attacks, right?
If the FORMER case is true, and one attack yielded a 2, and the second attack yielded a 4, the victim is now bleeding 4 damage every round, correct?
If the LATTER case is true, is the bleed roll now 2d4, with the victim taking the higher of the two rolls each round? What if my orgue attacked five times while dual-wielding? Would the victim now have to contend with the highest d4 roll out of 5d4?
Has there been any official word on how to adjudicate any of this?
You know if you were new here I would let this pass Ravingdork, but this is in the FAQ already so I'm just going to point you in that direction and smirk a bit -- in a friendly manner of course.
I'm looking at the core rulebook FAQ and I don't see it. I even checked the d20PFSRD unofficial FAQ (which isn't normally enough for me, but I checked it anyways thinking that might be what you were referring to) and I still don't see this issue being addressed anywhere.
I asked this question about a week ago and someone pointed me to this on d20PFSRD.
There are a few ways you can handle the multiple bleed attacks:
1) Do nothing, 1d4 = 1d4
2) 1d4+ 1 for each additional bleed attack but the maximum you can get is 4 bleed
3) Roll each die and take the highest.
#1 and #2 are probably the easiest ways to handle this so that time isn't eaten up with extraneous die rolls. I think #1 is probably close to the official way to do this but the only thing supporting that is my strong opinion.
I checked the Core Rulebook, APG, Bestiary, and Game Mastery Guide and didn't see any FAQ info on bleeds..
So now the only question is, after multiple bleed attacks, whether you roll 1d4 each round, or if you roll xd4 take highest.
So now the only question is, after multiple bleed attacks, whether you roll 1d4 each round, or if you roll xd4 take highest.
The link I provided shows that James Jacobs says you should roll each round.
Here it is on the Paizo site.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Since the bleeding results from different wounds/successful hits, the bleeding would vary: for each hit the d4 bleed damage would be rolled (and kept track off) individually - and according to James, if the bleed damage is expressed as a die roll, you roll it again each round (see Bob's link).
Ruyan.
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If a rogue strikes someone for sneak attack damage and 1d4 bleed damage (via the bleeding attack rogue talent) does the rogue roll 1d4 and the victim takes that static amount of bleed damage round after round? Or does the victim take 1d4 bleed damage in each round (so one round might deal 1 damage and another deals 4)?
If a rogue strikes the same target again with bleeding attack, the victim takes the higher bleed damage from the two attacks, right?
If the FORMER case is true, and one attack yielded a 2, and the second attack yielded a 4, the victim is now bleeding 4 damage every round, correct?
If the LATTER case is true, is the bleed roll now 2d4, with the victim taking the higher of the two rolls each round? What if my orgue attacked five times while dual-wielding? Would the victim now have to contend with the highest d4 roll out of 5d4?
Has there been any official word on how to adjudicate any of this?
The answer to your first question is located here.
You're supposed to roll variable bleed damage each round.
Since Bleed effects don't stack, it would seem that you would roll each round and take the highest amount of Bleed damage to apply.
While I'm pretty certain this is the rule, I'll agree that it isn't very elegant, especially if you have multiple creatures or PCs with Bleed effects. It could get ridiculously complicated.
Edit: Oops, ninja'd on the link.
So now the only question is, after multiple bleed attacks, whether you roll 1d4 each round, or if you roll xd4 take highest.Well for the Rogue Bleeding attack you don't need to worry, since it is a Static number.
How is 1d4 a static number?
So now the only question is, after multiple bleed attacks, whether you roll 1d4 each round, or if you roll xd4 take highest.The link I provided shows that James Jacobs says you should roll each round.
Here it is on the Paizo site.
I think maybe you misunderstood the meaning of my last post, as James has not addressed it yet.
What I meant by xd4 was, to use an example, if I were to attack a guy 5 times using bleeding attack, he would have to roll 5d4 every round, taking the highest die roll as his bleed damage for that round (max 4).
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So now the only question is, after multiple bleed attacks, whether you roll 1d4 each round, or if you roll xd4 take highest.Well for the Rogue Bleeding attack you don't need to worry, since it is a Static number.How is 1d4 a static number?
That is easy, Rogue Bleed Attack is not 1d4, it is 1 point of Bleed Dmg per sneak attack Die you have.
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I think maybe you misunderstood the meaning of my last post, as James has not addressed it yet.
What I meant by xd4 was, to use an example, if I were to attack a guy 5 times using bleeding attack, he would have to roll 5d4 every round, taking the highest die roll as his bleed damage for that round (max 4).
Yes. You would roll 5 times (each round) and take the highest. And, yeah, that rule really needs to be rethought. Screams for House Ruling...
I suppose I was...
Hm...sorry 'bout that.
I'd still like to know how bleed damage should be adjudicated though.
Thank you everyone for your help so far.
Why would you apply the bleed damage only once?
I mean, the opponent received five separate hits and I would assume the rogue aiming for vital areas punctured/slashed the guy in different spots, opening five different arteries/veins - so hitting five times with extra bleed damage will result in 1d4 + 1d4 + 1d4 + 1d4 +1d4 damage from five different wounds.
Ruyan.
Why would you apply the bleed damage only once?
I mean, the opponent received five separate hits and I would assume the rogue aiming for vital areas punctured/slashed the guy in different spots, opening five different arteries/veins - so hitting five times with extra bleed damage will result in 1d4 + 1d4 + 1d4 + 1d4 +1d4 damage from five different wounds.
Ruyan.
Bleed damage doesn't typically stack according to the rules. Why the designers did this is likely a matter of balance.
So now the only question is, after multiple bleed attacks, whether you roll 1d4 each round, or if you roll xd4 take highest.Well for the Rogue Bleeding attack you don't need to worry, since it is a Static number.How is 1d4 a static number?
So now the only question is, after multiple bleed attacks, whether you roll 1d4 each round, or if you roll xd4 take highest.The link I provided shows that James Jacobs says you should roll each round.
Here it is on the Paizo site.
I think maybe you misunderstood the meaning of my last post, as James has not addressed it yet.
What I meant by xd4 was, to use an example, if I were to attack a guy 5 times using bleeding attack, he would have to roll 5d4 every round, taking the highest die roll as his bleed damage for that round (max 4).
I don't think it's going to be an issue if you look at any one of the three ways I mentioned above. The easiest and fastest is to just say that 1d4 bleed = 1d4 bleed and be done with it. You could also just say that the rogue deals 1d4+1 (maximum 4) for the second bleed attack, 1d4+2 (maximum 4) for the third bleed attack, 1d4+3 (maximum 4) for the fourth bleed attack), and 4 points for the fifth bleed attack. Theoretically, rolling 4 dice should eventually net him a 4 on at least one of those die rolls so that isn't an out of the way solution. You could also just roll xd4 and take the highest result but eventually you will have so many dice that you will probably just get a 4 anyway.
Personally, I would just assume that 1d4=1d4 and call it a day.
*I know that the variable bleed from the rogue's ability has been addressed, I'm just continuing the thought process because there are variable bleed effects.
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Why would you apply the bleed damage only once?
I mean, the opponent received five separate hits and I would assume the rogue aiming for vital areas punctured/slashed the guy in different spots, opening five different arteries/veins - so hitting five times with extra bleed damage will result in 1d4 + 1d4 + 1d4 + 1d4 +1d4 damage from five different wounds.
Ruyan.
Because the Pathfinder Core Rulebook states on p.565 that "Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worst effect."
Different kinds of damage refers to hit point damage, ability damage, or ability drain.
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I don't think it's going to be an issue if you look at any one of the three ways I mentioned above. The easiest and fastest is to just say that 1d4 bleed = 1d4 bleed and be done with it. You could also just say that the rogue deals 1d4+1 (maximum 4) for the second bleed attack, 1d4+2 (maximum 4) for the third bleed attack, 1d4+3 (maximum 4) for the fourth bleed attack), and 4 points for the fifth bleed attack. Theoretically, rolling 4 dice should eventually net him a 4 on at least one of those die rolls so that isn't an out of the way solution. You could also just roll xd4 and take the highest result but eventually you will have so many dice that you will probably just get a 4 anyway.
Personally, I would just assume that 1d4=1d4 and call it a day.
*I know that the variable bleed from the rogue's ability has been addressed, I'm just continuing the thought process because there are variable bleed effects.
I like the +1 per additional bleed attack mechanic. It's more elegant, requires less die rolling, and it really isn't overpowered. So, thumbs up from me, for what that's worth.
I like the +1 per additional bleed attack mechanic. It's more elegant, requires less die rolling, and it really isn't overpowered. So, thumbs up from me, for what that's worth.I don't think it's going to be an issue if you look at any one of the three ways I mentioned above. The easiest and fastest is to just say that 1d4 bleed = 1d4 bleed and be done with it. You could also just say that the rogue deals 1d4+1 (maximum 4) for the second bleed attack, 1d4+2 (maximum 4) for the third bleed attack, 1d4+3 (maximum 4) for the fourth bleed attack), and 4 points for the fifth bleed attack. Theoretically, rolling 4 dice should eventually net him a 4 on at least one of those die rolls so that isn't an out of the way solution. You could also just roll xd4 and take the highest result but eventually you will have so many dice that you will probably just get a 4 anyway.
Personally, I would just assume that 1d4=1d4 and call it a day.
*I know that the variable bleed from the rogue's ability has been addressed, I'm just continuing the thought process because there are variable bleed effects.
I don't get many thumbs up so it's worth something :)
Oh, and after rereading the bleed rules, I think that the intention is that 1d4=1d4. It doesn't state that you take the highest damage. It stats that you take the worse effect. 1d4 is worse than static bleed. 1d6 is worse than 1d4. 1d4 is the same as 1d4.
thanks, I wasn't aware of that rule.
What if a horned devil hits my character three times with his tail in combat? Would I then have to contend with the highest two rolls out of 6d6 thanks to infernal wound?
Example: In round 3 (been hit with infernal wound once each round) my turn starts just after the horned devil's and I check for bleed damage. Do I roll 2d6? Or do I roll 6d6 adding the two highest?
Building on the theme of the question here: What if I have 1d4 bleed and get hit by a 1d6 bleed effect? Do I only roll the 1d6? Do I roll 1d4+1d6 and take the highest die? If I only roll the 1d6, what if it's between a 2d4 bleed and a 1d8 bleed? What if I have a 10-round 1d4 bleed and a 2-round 6d6 bleed?
The only thing that makes sense to me as RAI is rolling all the bleed and then taking the highest result... but that doesn't really quite mesh with the RAW of "When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worst effect"
Some important questions have yet to be answered.
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I have always played it based on my interpretation of the rules which are:
1) for every attack that lands with a bleed effect find the highest damaging effect & apply that once no matter how many attacks - I based this on the rule bleed effects dont stack so I believed this to mean only one roll but use highest eg. 1D4 bleed & 1D6 bleed I only roll 1D6 each turn
2) bleed damage happens at the start of the damaged opponents turn - made it easier to track particularly if multiple players caused bleed effects (not usually an issue in my games)
3) since I only roll once using the highest bleed effect Ravingdorks question of "Do I roll 2d6? Or do I roll 6d6 adding the two highest?" would not apply - but for a houserule I would roll 2D6 x3 times & take highest result not 6D6 taking highest individual die rolls
Anyone else have any answers?
If a rogue strikes someone for sneak attack damage and 1d4 bleed damage (via the bleeding attack rogue talent) does the rogue roll 1d4 and the victim takes that static amount of bleed damage round after round? Or does the victim take 1d4 bleed damage in each round (so one round might deal 1 damage and another deals 4)?
Just to reiterate what is in the PRD Glossary:
Bleed: A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
When an ability says you take the listed damage, if that damage is randomly determined (1d4), you roll it each time. The same holds true with spells like acid arrow and incendiary cloud.
If a rogue strikes the same target again with bleeding attack, the victim takes the higher bleed damage from the two attacks, right?
Actually, nothing new happens. The target is already affected by the bleed effect. The text from the PRD covers this.
Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage.
The rogue's bleed damage from the first attack will continue to function (unless it becomes healed).
If there were a bleed effect that deals 1d4 damage applied to a monster and that monster were then affected by a 1d6 bleed attack, the 1d6 would "override" the 1d4 bleed attack. Roll only a 1d6, don't roll 1d4. That's because the 1d6 effect is worse than the 1d4 effect. And as the PRD says:
When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect.
If there were a bleed effect that deals 1d4 damage applied to a monster and that monster were then affected by a 1d6 bleed attack, the 1d6 would "override" the 1d4 bleed attack. Roll only a 1d6, don't roll 1d4. That's because the 1d6 effect is worse than the 1d4 effect. And as the PRD says:
When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect
But what happens if someone puts a 3 dpr bleed effect on someone, and then someone else puts a d6 bleed effect. Which is worse? 4 static vs d6?
Or, has been pointed out, what if it comes down to 2d4 vs d8?
Or what about a bleed effect with a set duration but high damage versus an unlimited duration bleed with low damage?
It also comes down to where you draw the line on what an effect is. The whole bleed shebang is an effect, yes. But the individual damage each round is ALSO an effect. Since there are many ways to build scenarios where there is no clear determinant of which is the "greater" effect on the macro level (e.g., 6d6 bleed which auto-heals in 3 rounds versus 1d6 pure bleed with no duration limit), all we are left with is the micro level to say that all bleed status effects exist concurrently, and each round you determine which is the most severe that round. To do that, you roll them all and take the worst. It adds lots of dice rolling, but it seems the only way to deal with the outlier cases.
Also, to be clear, that means that if someone is under 3 2d6 bleed effects, then they would roll 2d6 three times and take the worst, rather than rolling 6d6 and taking the two highest individual dice, as Ceefood pointed out already.
There are a few ways to deal with the "worse effect:"
1) Averages. Just compare the average bleed and the highest would be the worst effect. If a rogue hits for 4 bleed and also manages to get 1d6 bleed in there, the 4 bleed would be the worst.
2) Minimum. 4 bleed would be worse than 1d6.
3) Maximum. 1d6 bleed has the potential of being worse than the 4 bleed, so we could assume that the 1d6 bleed is worst.
4) Do the work. Actually roll the different bleed effects and apply the worst one. If the rogue deals 4 bleed and 1d6 bleed, roll that d6 and see how it turns out.
5) Simplicity. 4 bleed is easier and faster than rolling so it ends up being the worst effect.
Personally, I'm a fan of the Maximum. For my games, it's all about potential. I also like to keep things simple and fast moving. I think bleed should be scary and I love to watch my players scramble to use skills in combat to stay alive. I like them to be be on the defensive sometimes. Making their characters bleed is one way I do that. I've never been a fan of 1-2 round combats. I like to see healing in combat. I like to see skills being used.
The way I see it, 1d6 bleed damage is neither worse nor better than 4 bleed damage until you roll it.
Since the RAW say to use the worse effect, you have to roll the d6 and find out. Roll a 5 or 6, your bleeding just got worse. Roll a 1-4, it has no effect.
Seems straightforward, unless I'm missing something.
And there are effects like belier's bite, that imply that each hit deal 1d4 extra bleed damage.
It's confusing to say the least.
I'm definitely in the camp of "roll them all, then take the worst each turn". Nothing else covers all scenarios that could come up. It does make for a lot of bookkeeping, though.
Does a heal check heal all forms of bleed damage, or just the highest one?
For ease of bookkeeping, I just take the roll on the first bleed and apply that as a static bleed per round. Any new bleed effects are rolled: if the bleed result is higher than the existing bleed, the static bleed amount goes up to the new result. Beats the hell out of rolling Z lots of XdY and choosing the highest result.
I do agree, though, that by RAW, every bleed effect in place should be rolled each round and the highest bleed selected. I just don't want that hassle.
[edit: Bleeding Critical stacks with itself. Bad example to use.]
My DM has been taking it as when the bleed occurs you roll and that's the bleed damage that it does every turn. Each additional bleeding strike allows you to reroll and if it's higher you take the higher value.
Case in point: Monk with Boar Style hits twice, roll 2d6 bleed damage. I rolled a 3 (which happens way more often than it should with 2d6 for me for some reason). Next turn, hits twice again and rends flesh, now rolling a 10 on 2d6. now the target is taking 10 bleed / turn.
Consequently, if I were to then take Belier's Bite, the total bleed would be 2d6 + 1d4.
Not sure if that's how it should work, but that's how my DM is running it, and I'm not complaining.
Rolling once per bleed effect has always seemed like a simpler solution than rolling each time (taking higher if a second bleed hits). There are some consequences to that, such as encouraging the use of a second bleed if you rolled low the first time, and leaving a target alone to deal with other threats if they're bleeding out fast.
You could also just say that the rogue deals 1d4+1 (maximum 4) for the second bleed attack, 1d4+2 (maximum 4) for the third bleed attack, 1d4+3 (maximum 4) for the fourth bleed attack), and 4 points for the fifth bleed attack.
For what it's worth, here's the comparison of the average of xd4 (take highest) vs. the +1:
# , xd4, +1/x1d4: 2.5, 2.5
2d4: 3.15, 3.25
3d4: 3.43, 3.75
4d4: 3.61, 4.0
5d4: 3.74, 4.0
Bleed only stacks if there are different types of Bleed; such as one bleed doing hp damage and one doing Ability damage.
If Bleed does a fixed number of hp damage; multiple Bleeds are ignored, only the worst is applied. 5 points of damage is worse than 3 points.
If Bleed does a variable number of hp damage; multiple Bleeds are ignored, only the worst is applied. 2d6 damage is worse than 1d4 points, you don't roll both and take the
higher value. You use only the 2d6 points which are rolled each turn.
Since the same Bleed does not stack, it does not matter if you get hit once by a horned devil's tail or if 6 of them hit you 3 times each, you only roll 2d6 each round.
As for healing Bleed, I think it was posted somewhere by developers that healing one Bleed heals them all, but I'm not sure.
When dealing with fixed and variable damage, just use the average number for the variable to determine which is worse.
To go with the monk... Some bleeds say take x damage, some say per turn. Raw/rai?
IejirIsk,
I'm not sure what you mean.
Bleed damage is EVERY ROUND until the creatures is dead or the Bleed is stopped.
That is RAW.
What kind of Bleed damage , or its source that is, determines how much damage.
I believe the intent was that a 1d4 = 1d4. So neither is 'worse' than the other.
So if your hit with multiple D4 bleed effects the 'worst' bleed effect is 1D4 so that is the only die you need to roll for the bleed.
Not 6D4 and take the worst rolled effect since that would be essentially a type of stacking.
The bleed rules state you take the one worst effect. Before the actual roll they are all 1D4 hence the worst effect is 1D4. Roll the one die and your done. Quick and simple.
If you were hit with a D4 bleed and a D6 bleed the D6 bleed would be the 'worse' bleed effect and you would roll that instead. You would not roll a D4 and a D6 and take whichever rolled higher.
IejirIsk,
I'm not sure what you mean.Bleed damage is EVERY ROUND until the creatures is dead or the Bleed is stopped.
That is RAW.What kind of Bleed damage , or its source that is, determines how much damage.
The rogue ability is 1 dpr iirc. the boar style says 'takes 2d6 bleed damage'. so it would take 2d6 bleed damage every round?
Yes the target would. And they would Roll the 2d6 each round as well.
As AF says.
It means d6 Hit Dice Beasties should watch out against you as well.