What skill would be used for a game of chance (gambling?)

[Ravenlute]

If I wanted to roll a skill check to see how well a character could do vs other characters or NPC's while gambling or playing other games of chance, what would the skill used be? I know you can have Profession (Gambler) but that's different, it's a job that makes you a set amount of money and wouldn't apply in the same way.

[Morain]

Just opposed d20 or d100 rolls if nobody is cheating. sleight of hand vs perception checks if somebody is cheating.

What we've done on several occations is play texas hold'em poker for ingame gp's. It's fun if you like playing poker :p

[IkeDoe]

Some games involve something more than having luck, others not, so the question is what game is it.

I.e. For Poker I would roll opposed checks, then I would give a +2 bonus to the guy with the best Bluff skill modifier and the guy with the best Sense Motive modifier. I could also give a bonus to characters with high intelligence that can use statistics for they advantage. You could also give a bonus to characters that roll high numbers in Streetwise checks, as they usually know those games better.

[Quantum Steve]

Opposed Profession checks to see who "did it better" is not unprecedented. Profession (Gambler) would, in fact, be the opposed check in this case.

[Ravenlute]

Quantum Steve wrote:

Opposed Profession checks to see who "did it better" is not unprecedented. Profession (Gambler) would, in fact, be the opposed check in this case.

Not a bad idea vs a character or NPC but Profession is a Trained Only skill. You certainly don't need to be trained to throw down some money on a game and try to win it.

EDIT: A basic Wis check could cover that.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Bluff vs Sense Motive = you don't have it but want them to think you do
Intimidate = the dastardly gambler, causing others to fold through threats
Profession(gambler) = opposed check
Sleight of Hand vs Perception = cheating

Don't forget gamblers items such as loaded dice, marked cards, or other items may alter the game as well.

[Ravenlute]

I like a lot of what has been said here, how does this sound?

Profession (Gambler) (or Wisdom check if they don't have the skill) for the opposed check.

Then as additional options:

Bluff vs Sense Motive for lying, success grants +2 mod
Sleight of Hand vs Perception for cheating, success grants +2 mod
Intimidate (demoralize) for threatening, success makes opponent Shaken giving them a -2 mod
Int check vs DC 15 for statistical knowledge, success grants +2 mod

[karkon]

Start the game off by letting all characters with Profession Gambling make a skill roll. The number on the skill roll is the bonus pool.

So play each hand using the rolls suggested by LeBlanc when appropriate. When a professional gambler wants a little bonus he can take a +1 or +2 and subtract that from his bonus pool. These bonuses must be declared before a roll. The professionals can use their pool until it runs to zero.

In this fashion you let the people who do it for a living get bonuses to reflect that experience.

You could also give everyone a d20 luck roll at the beginning of the game. That result, unmodified, is their luck pool and can be used in the same way as the bonus pool. They also stack. So a professional gambler could take +2 from both pools for a total of +4.

[LazarX]

DM's who want to explore the idea of a gambling hall would be well served by checking out the Golden Goblin from the first part of the Second Darkness Adventure Path, still available as PDF. Using that material you can pretty much recreate good variety of games of chance.

[karkon]

Ravenlute wrote:

I like a lot of what has been said here, how does this sound?

Profession (Gambler) (or Wisdom check if they don't have the skill) for the opposed check.

Then as additional options:

Bluff vs Sense Motive for lying, success grants +2 mod
Sleight of Hand vs Perception for cheating, success grants +2 mod
Intimidate (demoralize) for threatening, success makes opponent Shaken giving them a -2 mod
Int check vs DC 15 for statistical knowledge, success grants +2 mod

Posted my response before I saw yours. I think that would work out fine.

For statistical knowledge you could let them do a knowledge check with a variety of knowledges: Nobility (games nobles play), Religion (for the tricksy gods), Local (popular local game), History (knowledge of great gamblers). Taking from 3.5e you could give a synergy bonus for players having more than one applicable skill.

[Twowlves]

Personally, I'd use Profession: Gambling like any other Profession skill - as a weekly income roll.

As for marked cards/loaded dice, treat them as "Masterwork Artisan's Tools" and grant a +2 to your gambling checks (either for a single game or a weekly profession roll), with the caveat that a natural "1" means you got caught cheating, with all the possibilities that entails.

[Cold Napalm]

Depends on the game.

For pure games of chance...like craps or roulette, set the odds, set the % and use some dice.

For games like poker, us opposed checks.

For cheating, use slieght of hand vs perception.

[Mojorat]

second darknessvhas some stuff on this. though I did it as a player so never read the rules. but basically you can do it two ways. actually p,ay out a game or roll a profession check to speed things up. I don't know how it handled no profession though.

[Ravenlute]

Twowlves wrote:

Personally, I'd use Profession: Gambling like any other Profession skill - as a weekly income roll.

As for marked cards/loaded dice, treat them as "Masterwork Artisan's Tools" and grant a +2 to your gambling checks (either for a single game or a weekly profession roll), with the caveat that a natural "1" means you got caught cheating, with all the possibilities that entails.

If you use Profession only for the weekly roll, what would you use for a single game?

[Ravenlute]

Cold Napalm wrote:

Depends on the game.

For pure games of chance...like craps or roulette, set the odds, set the % and use some dice.

For games like poker, us opposed checks.

For cheating, use slieght of hand vs perception.

If you used percentiles for games of pure chance, how would you adjust it for luck modifiers?

[Freesword]

Ravenlute wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Depends on the game.

For pure games of chance...like craps or roulette, set the odds, set the % and use some dice.

For games like poker, us opposed checks.

For cheating, use slieght of hand vs perception.

If you used percentiles for games of pure chance, how would you adjust it for luck modifiers?

Every side to a d20 roll is 5%. The math translates over nicely. Treat each +1 as +5%.

If you win by bluffing - Bluff vs Sense Motive (ex poker)

If you win by cheating - Sleight of Hand vs Perception (ex marking cards, dealing from the bottom, switching in loaded dice)

If you win by luck - straight rolls (if a card game substituting drawing high card from an actual deck works as well)

Darts would be opposed ranged attack rolls.

Arm wrestling would be opposed strength.

[Cold Napalm]

Ravenlute wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Depends on the game.

For pure games of chance...like craps or roulette, set the odds, set the % and use some dice.

For games like poker, us opposed checks.

For cheating, use slieght of hand vs perception.

If you used percentiles for games of pure chance, how would you adjust it for luck modifiers?

Well if there is something that makes the characters extra lucky, you modify the %.

So lets look at roulette. You have a 1 in 35 chance to win and the payout is 1 in 33. So you have a 2.8% chance to win. Now if the players are extra lucky then they get a 5% chance to win...but the payout of 33 gold for ever gold bet stays the same.

[Stephen from Redmond, WA]

What if you're a professional gambler (Profession: Gambling) and you routinely use marked cards, loaded dice, and cards up your sleeve (Sleight of Hand), in addition to your Bluff skill? How much would this affect your weekly income?

Thanks!

[Maezer]

Cold Napalm wrote:

So lets look at roulette. You have a 1 in 35 chance to win and the payout is 1 in 33. So you have a 2.8% chance to win. Now if the players are extra lucky then they get a 5% chance to win...but the payout of 33 gold for ever gold bet stays the same.

I am just curious where you play roulette. Usually its 1 of 38 wins (1-36+0 and 00)for single number bets. With a payout of about 35 to 1 though more variance here.

[Maezer]

Stephen from Redmond, WA wrote:

What if you're a professional gambler (Profession: Gambling) and you routinely use marked cards, loaded dice, and cards up your sleeve (Sleight of Hand), in addition to your Bluff skill? How much would this affect your weekly income?

I generally assume professional gamblers are like travelling entertainers. They bring the props into town, set up shop in a tavern or tent (and give the owner/mayor a cut) and provide the props (the cards, the dice, the wheel, the fighters etc.) And then make money by taking the houses natural cut. I'd have the final profit of a profession gambler roll per day be equal to what preform generates at whatever given DC. I also apply a cumulative -2 penalty for each consecutive night you operate out of the same establishment. Which resets after a week of inactivity. (I'd negate this penalty if their was a reason for new clientele (tourists/sailors/pilgrams) to be coming on a regular basis but you can only milk a give town for so much.)

If you are trying to roll a particular individual or group. You set the stakes (all the players have to agree). It should be an opposed roll. The Odds start at even. And I'd give you a +2 for a successful sleight of hand to cheat. And a +2 (if succesful) or -2 (if failed) for opposed bluff/sense motive (and probably have the other players try the same thing).

If you cheat more blatantly I'd up the bonus by +2 for every +10 you give to the opposed rolls.

[deusvult]

A GM needs to know what he wants to accomplish by providing gambling roleplay for a player.

If the player is wanting to make money, it's in the GM's interest (if only for rules continuity) to insist on not resolving the PC's efforts game by game and instead calling a whole evening/week/whatever's worth of gambling a single profession:Gambler check.

If the GM is bringing this issue into the game as part of something larger (maybe some sort of scenario where you're gambling with an infernal for someone's soul) it's best to make the rules (and possible ways to cheat) tailored to the scenario, rather than look for something univeral to apply to every sort of gambling.