| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
In contrast to my other thread over in the General Discussion board, where we discuss whether or not a person should be allowed to augment specific magical armor and weapons, this thread is to discuss the RAW and whether or not they allow such augmentations.
In other words, this is a thread for the rules lawyers.
Say, for example, a player has a beaststrike club, but wants to have it further enchanted with a +5 enhancement bonus so that he will ignore every DR in the game short of DR/- and DR/epic. Another player wants a blade of binding that is a spiked chain rather than a greatsword, while still another player wants a +5 fullplate of luck rather than the more traditional banded mail of luck.
Are such things possible in the rules as they are written now?
If so, how is a person to go about handling things like cost/price of the item?
I would also like to know the developers' opinion on whether this is allowed within the rules.
Discuss.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Say, for example, a player has a beaststrike club, but wants to have it further enchanted with a +5 enhancement bonus so that he will ignore every DR in the game short of DR/- and DR/epic. Another player wants a blade of binding that is a spiked chain rather than a greatsword, while still another player wants a +5 fullplate of luck rather than the more traditional banded mail of luck.
Are such things possible in the rules as they are written now?
If so, how is a person to go about handling things like cost/price of the item?
I would also like to know the developers' opinion on whether this is allowed within the rules.
Discuss.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
So for the beaststrike club you would only need to add +4 enchanment and since the club is already +1, to make it +5, I would make them pay 48,000 gp since the other abilites don't seem to derive from an enhancement bonus.
For the blade of binding, keep the same construction requirements but use the spiked chain. The only difference is that the chain wouldn't change shape. And the same for the fullplate, add 14000gp for the difference of +3 to +5 and 1250 for the difference from banded to full.
Dont forget the most important rule.
I'd say treat the plus of such an item as the plus nearest the COST of the item, NOT the actual plus.
If Gorehound, a +2 ax with other specific abilities cost roughly as much as a +4 weapon. Upgrading it to a +3 enhancement bonus should cost as going up to a +5 weapon.
Say, for example, a player has a beaststrike club, but wants to have it further enchanted with a +5 enhancement bonus so that he will ignore every DR in the game short of DR/- and DR/epic. Another player wants a blade of binding that is a spiked chain rather than a greatsword, while still another player wants a +5 fullplate of luck rather than the more traditional banded mail of luck.
Are such things possible in the rules as they are written now?
If so, how is a person to go about handling things like cost/price of the item?
I would also like to know the developers' opinion on whether this is allowed within the rules.
Discuss.
** spoiler omitted **...
I did not check the math, but I agree with the concept because I that is how the rules seem to work. I would think that if a magic item such as celestial armor were not able to be augmented that it would have been noted at some point, and it would really make such items less valuable, and eventually outdated by armor that could be upgraded normally.
I'd say treat the plus of such an item as the plus nearest the COST of the item, NOT the actual plus.
If Gorehound, a +2 ax with other specific abilities cost roughly as much as a +4 weapon. Upgrading it to a +3 enhancement bonus should cost as going up to a +5 weapon.
The game has special properties that are don't add to the value going off of the enhancement chart, because they have their own specific value. By the rules you can only use specific enhancements price when upgrading via enhancements.
Glamored and undead controlling special properties have specific prices that don't have anything to do with the enhancement price chart, for example.I don't know how clear that was so tell me if I need to restate it.
I'd say treat the plus of such an item as the plus nearest the COST of the item, NOT the actual plus.
If Gorehound, a +2 ax with other specific abilities cost roughly as much as a +4 weapon. Upgrading it to a +3 enhancement bonus should cost as going up to a +5 weapon.
Yeah, it's not clear what portion of a specific item's cost counts as "extra pluses" and which is a flat fee. So it's up to the GM to decide.
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Okay by RAW it doesn't say you can so...you can't. It's like going well can you imagine a flying purple people eater into existence...because you know, nothing in RAW says you can't. RAW tells you what you CAN do. If RAW doesn't say...then you can't. The guideline for adding new abilities is for the DM to make new items for his/her game...there was a reason why that was a part of the DMG and not the player's handbook. Even then the very first thing it says to do is see what the item does and place a value based on that...and ONLY use the math as a last resort for setting the value of the new magical item. Hence why the ring of true strike that gives you +20 to hit for a mere 2000 gold isn't RAW, RAI or anything else legal.
Okay by RAW it doesn't say you can so...you can't. It's like going well can you imagine a flying purple people eater into existence...because you know, nothing in RAW says you can't. RAW tells you what you CAN do. If RAW doesn't say...then you can't. The guideline for adding new abilities is for the DM to make new items for his/her game...there was a reason why that was a part of the DMG and not the player's handbook. Even then the very first thing it says to do is see what the item does and place a value based on that...and ONLY use the math as a last resort for setting the value of the new magical item. Hence why the ring of true strike that gives you +20 to hit for a mere 2000 gold isn't RAW, RAI or anything else legal.
There is no rule separating magic weapons and armor with special names from ones that don't. The RAW rule is you can add things. In order for you to not be able to add things they would have to be called out as exceptions. What you can add, other than base(what the book specifically says you can add) properties and how much they cost, is up to the DM.
PS: We may be arguing different points. I think you are your statement is on making new custom items, which is not the question unless I misunderstood it.
I thought they were asking could an assassin dagger, as an example, be upgraded to a +4.
Ok, this has intrigued me for a bit so though I would throw in my two cents.
I was firmly in the camp that special armor/weapons were as is items no changes until one of my players pointed out to me that a mithral chain shirt, and adamantite armors are presented as special and we all know those can be improved on with enchantments. So I did the following breakdown.
Cost of Celestial Armor: 22,400
Cost of +3 chain mail: 9000 Enhancement + 300 Chain mail = 9,300 gp
Cost of 1/day fly: (Caster Level 5 x Spell level 3 x 1800gp)/5 = 5,400 gp
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So "Celestial Property" which grants:
+6 dex bonus
-3 Armor check
-15% spell fail
Makes armor one category lighter
Cost is: (22,400 - 9,300) - 5,400 = 7700 gp on medium armor
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Mithral cost:
Light: 1,000 gp
Medium: 4,000 gp
Heavy: 9,000 gp
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So using mithral as factors you get Celestial property cost of:
Light:1,915 gp
Medium:7,700 gp
Heavy:17,235 gp
Therefore the difference on buying celestial vs mithral is:
5% arcane spell Failure
4 Max Dex bonus
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For a cost difference at each tier of:
Light: 915 gp
Medium: 3,700 gp
Heavy: 8,235 gp
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Obviously the cheapest and easiest is on light armor however, I do not see this as too overpowered but would have to see it in play.
Please correct me on any of this that is wrong.
Ok, this has intrigued me for a bit so though I would throw in my two cents.
I was firmly in the camp that special armor/weapons were as is items no changes until one of my players pointed out to me that a mithral chain shirt, and adamantite armors are presented as special and we all know those can be improved on with enchantments. So I did the following breakdown.
Cost of Celestial Armor: 22,400
Cost of +3 chain mail: 9000 Enhancement + 300 Chain mail = 9,300 gp
Cost of 1/day fly: (Caster Level 5 x Spell level 3 x 1800gp)/5 = 5,400 gp
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The addition of the fly spell has a different total price than yours because those formulas are just guidelines. Celestial armor also does not allowing flying once per day. If it was 1/day if you flew and then turned it off then you could not use it again. The way Celestial armor works allows you to fly and turn it off, and turn it back on. This increases the versatility of the armor so the developers had to ad-hoc the price.
Many items have ad-hoc'd prices to prevent them from being too expensive or too cheap.
Wraithstrike wrote:
The addition of the fly spell has a different total price than yours because those formulas are just guidelines. Celestial armor also does not allowing flying once per day. If it was 1/day if you flew and then turned it off then you could not use it again. The way Celestial armor works allows you to fly and turn it off, and turn it back on. This increases the versatility of the armor so the developers had to ad-hoc the price.Many items have ad-hoc'd prices to prevent them from being too expensive or too cheap.
Thank you for the correction, however on page 465 of the hard copy of the core rule book I have for celestial armor it states,
It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Is it changed in an errata?
Wraithstrike wrote:
The addition of the fly spell has a different total price than yours because those formulas are just guidelines. Celestial armor also does not allowing flying once per day. If it was 1/day if you flew and then turned it off then you could not use it again. The way Celestial armor works allows you to fly and turn it off, and turn it back on. This increases the versatility of the armor so the developers had to ad-hoc the price.Many items have ad-hoc'd prices to prevent them from being too expensive or too cheap.
Thank you for the correction, however on page 465 of the hard copy of the core rule book I have for celestial armor it states,
It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.Is it changed in an errata?
I stand corrected on the armor, but I keep my position with the ad-hoc advice. I guess armor that can allow you to fly is the reason. The fly spell is also not using a magic item that is taking up it's own slot. It is sharing it with the armor. That is the 3rd time I have been wrong about something this week.
I am guess I am getting them out of they way now so I can be right the rest of the year. :)
These are the revised numbers after Wraithstrike was kind enough to point out that multiple different abilities in the same slot increase cost.
Cost of Celestial Armor: 22,400
Cost of +3 chain mail: 9000 Enhancement + 300 Chain mail = 9,300 gp
Cost of 1/day fly: ((Caster Level 5 x Spell level 3 x 1800gp)/5)*1.5 = 8,100 gp
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So "Celestial Property" which grants:
+6 dex bonus
-3 Armor check
-15% spell fail
Makes armor one category lighter
Cost is: (22,400 - 9,300) - 8,100 = 5000 gp on medium armor
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Mithral cost:
Light: 1,000 gp
Medium: 4,000 gp
Heavy: 9,000 gp
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So using mithral as factors you get Celestial property cost of:
Light:1,250 gp
Medium:5,000 gp
Heavy:10,750 gp
Therefore the difference on buying celestial vs mithral is:
5% arcane spell Failure
4 Max Dex bonus
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For a cost difference at each tier of:
Light: 250 gp
Medium: 1,000 gp
Heavy: 1,750 gp
------------------------------------------------------------------------
After the changes this seems a little cheap to me and I may still use the original numbers even though the nice round numbers here suggest to me that these are the prices intended.
I suspect at this cost difference mithral would find little use.
In another thread a Dev broke down costs of celestial as a magical effect added to armor in the creation process, coming up with around 13,000 for medium armor. The 1/day fly is built in to Celestial, not a separate deal, so if you craft armor with the Celestial modifier, you keep the 1/day fly with it.
So I believe I have found the thread you are speaking about:
If so then the costs would be as follows.
Cost of Celestial Armor: 22,400
Cost of +3 chain mail: 9000 Enhancement + 300 Chain mail = 9,300 gp
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So "Celestial Property" which grants:
+6 dex bonus
-3 Armor check
-15% spell fail
Makes armor one category lighter and requires that category of armor proficiency.
Fly 1/day
Cost is: (22,400 - 9,300)= 13,100 gp on medium armor
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Mithral cost:
Light: 1,000 gp
Medium: 4,000 gp
Heavy: 9,000 gp
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So using mithral as factors you get Celestial property cost of:
Light:3,275 gp
Medium:13,100 gp
Heavy: 29,475 gp
Therefore the difference on buying celestial vs mithral is:
5% arcane spell Failure
4 Max Dex bonus
Fly 1/day
Makes armor one category lighter and requires that category of armor proficiency.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For a cost difference at each tier of:
Light: 2,275 gp
Medium: 9,100 gp
Heavy: 20,475 gp
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The large difference here after reading where James Jacobs answered in the linked thread is the fact that celestial armor lets a character with only medium armor proficiency use celestial full-plate.
At first this seemed powerful to me, however this would most likely be most useful to a cleric and would mean a cleric would then require high dexterity, wisdom and charisma along with most likely strength to use this completely efficiently.
An inquisitor may cause more of a problem with this however a 20,000 gp price tag will I believe keep this in line.
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Covent...and you think 3750 gold is a fair price for a light armor with fly once per day on top of the reduced ASF, more max dex and mithril properties?!? This is why the first rule of new magic item (or modified magic item) costing is see what it does and place a value. Honestly with this every single wizard and sorcerers would use clestial studded leather (0% ASF) over bracers as it would save them bucketloads of money.
Wraith, there isn't anything that says you can add magic after the fact to an item. It is just a very common houserule (unless I missed something...these small changes do creep up).
Covent...and you think 3750 gold is a fair price for a light armor with fly once per day on top of the reduced ASF, more max dex and mithril properties?!? This is why the first rule of new magic item (or modified magic item) costing is see what it does and place a value. Honestly with this every single wizard and sorcerers would use clestial studded leather (0% ASF) over bracers as it would save them bucketloads of money.
Wraith, there isn't anything that says you can add magic after the fact to an item. It is just a very common houserule (unless I missed something...these small changes do creep up).
I think our point of contention is that you see the specially named armor and weapons as specific magic items. I just see them as armor or weapons that have properties which can't be added separately by the book. I don't see why them having a special property would mean you can't add regular enhancements to them.
Wraith, there isn't anything that says you can add magic after the fact to an item.
Incorrect. Scroll all the way down.
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
Note that it specifically says, "Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place."
In other words, if you have the time, you have the money, and you have the pre-requisites to craft the added ability, then you can add it. There's no restriction against increasing the bonus or adding new abilities on celestial armor or a sun blade or any other specific weapon or armor.
In other words, if you have the time, you have the money, and you have the pre-requisites to craft the added ability, then you can add it. There's no restriction against increasing the bonus or adding new abilities on celestial armor or a sun blade or any other specific weapon or armor.
Agreed; the issue is that the cost to add new abilities/bonuses is not defined, so it's basically up to the GM to come up with the cost.
Agreed; the issue is that the cost to add new abilities/bonuses is not defined, so it's basically up to the GM to come up with the cost.
In other words, if you have the time, you have the money, and you have the pre-requisites to craft the added ability, then you can add it. There's no restriction against increasing the bonus or adding new abilities on celestial armor or a sun blade or any other specific weapon or armor.
If the enhancements are the normal weapon/armor enhancements then I think the chart works fine. Now if you are trying to make your own custom item such as by making armor that cast scorching ray against anyone that attacks you then it is a DM call. Even when adding flat cost things such as glamour the price to update the armor goes off of the enhancement bonus. If I misunderstood you then oops. :)
If the enhancements are the normal weapon/armor enhancements then I think the chart works fine. Now if you are trying to make your own custom item such as by making armor that cast scorching ray against anyone that attacks you then it is a DM call. Even when adding flat cost things such as glamour the price to update the armor goes off of the enhancement bonus. If I misunderstood you then oops. :)
Let's take a Dwarven Thrower warhammer as an example. How much does it cost to add another +1 enhancement bonus to it?
Well, it's sort of like a +2 warhammer with some extra abilities. But it's also sort of like a +3 throwing returning warhammer with a racial restriction and some extra abilities. At a stretch, you could even say it's similar to a +3 throwing returning giant-bane warhammer with some restrictions.
So does the extra "plus" cost 10,000 gp (the difference between a +2 weapon and +3 weapon)? Or does it cost 22,000 gp with a 30% discount (the difference between a +5 weapon and a +6 weapon, but with a discount for a racial restriction)? Or something else?
Answer: ask your GM.
Similarly, there are issues with other weapons:
- Sylvan Scimitar -- It has a circumstantial +1d6 damage bonus, similar to a Flaming or Merciful weapon.
- Shifter's Bane -- It has a sort-of-but-not-really Bane ability.
- Sword of the Planes -- Is it priced as a +1 longsword with a flat fee attached, or as a +4 longsword with a discount?
Etc.
If the enhancements are the normal weapon/armor enhancements then I think the chart works fine. Now if you are trying to make your own custom item such as by making armor that cast scorching ray against anyone that attacks you then it is a DM call. Even when adding flat cost things such as glamour the price to update the armor goes off of the enhancement bonus. If I misunderstood you then oops. :)Let's take a Dwarven Thrower warhammer as an example. How much does it cost to add another +1 enhancement bonus to it?
Well, it's sort of like a +2 warhammer with some extra abilities. But it's also sort of like a +3 throwing returning warhammer with a racial restriction and some extra abilities. At a stretch, you could even say it's similar to a +3 throwing returning giant-bane warhammer with some restrictions.
So does the extra "plus" cost 10,000 gp (the difference between a +2 weapon and +3 weapon)? Or does it cost 22,000 gp with a 30% discount (the difference between a +5 weapon and a +6 weapon, but with a discount for a racial restriction)? Or something else?
Answer: ask your GM.
Similarly, there are issues with other weapons:
- Sylvan Scimitar -- It has a circumstantial +1d6 damage bonus, similar to a Flaming or Merciful weapon.
- Shifter's Bane -- It has a sort-of-but-not-really Bane ability.
- Sword of the Planes -- Is it priced as a +1 longsword with a flat fee attached, or as a +4 longsword with a discount?
Etc.
For the dwarven thrower, you subtract the +2 price from the +3 price.
For weapons like the Sword of planes I don't think it is so cut and dry.
:)
For the dwarven thrower, you subtract the +2 price from the +3 price.So does the extra "plus" cost 10,000 gp (the difference between a +2 weapon and +3 weapon)? Or does it cost 22,000 gp with a 30% discount (the difference between a +5 weapon and a +6 weapon, but with a discount for a racial restriction)? Or something else?
Answer: ask your GM.
Either you're missing the point (that the GM has to decide because the rules aren't clear), or you're the GM in your game and you're agreeing with me.
Just throwing this out there even though it's not a society question, but there was a similar question asked about adding +2 dex to a belt of giant strength as far as pfs goes. It was either josh frost or sean reynolds that weighed in saying that yeah you can add abilities to items for 1.5 times the original cost of the item as stated on page 553 core. However at least as far as society is concerned it turned out that you could only do this to a belt of giant strength (add +2 dex to it) because that item already exists in the form of a belt of physical might. I believed this to mean that you couldnt take a belt of giant strength and toss +2 dex on it because there is no such thing as a belt of dwarven kind with dex added to it. So I'm not 100% sure on this one but I think that the specific items in the core rulebook cannot be added to like a flame tongue sword with keen thrown on it. Definately not in society play at any rate, but sean was referring to regular play when he commented on this if I remember correctly.
Society uses different rules because they have to ensure that everyone plays on a level playing field. PFS's rules are not terribly useful for determining what is actually legal by the rules for those of us that don't play PFS.
The large difference here after reading where James Jacobs answered in the linked thread is the fact that celestial armor lets a character with only medium armor proficiency use celestial full-plate.Read the thread in question and need to bring up two points.
1. There is no such thing as celestial plate. What Jacobs brings up in the discussion is Mithral Full Plate which is used as a comparison of a different type of magic armor.
2. He also makes it clear that celestial armor specifically is essentially a unique and specific magic item and it can not be further enchanted.
On point 1 you are incorrect:
Celestial Plate Armor
Source Pathfinder #11 29
Aura faint transmutation (good); CL 8th
Slot armor; Price 28,650 gp; Weight 25 lbs.
Description
Celestial plate armor is a sturdier version of the standard celestial armor. This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be good, fly; Cost 115,150 gp
Rhino-hide armor allows you +2d6 damage on a charge for what would be calculated as a cost of 1,000gp.
Pouncing Barbarian with six attacks. That is all.