Well he doesn't need the advice, but it really is appreciated...
PC's submitted for pre-approval, and i looks like there will be a dearth of frontline fighters. I got a strait rogue, a ranger, a Close combat w/ a bow ranger (i'm interested in seeing how he does that), a sorcerer, and a Noble Drow Cleric.
Guess which one i'm most confused about.
They're starting at 6th lvl. Drow is CR3+Cleric3=6. But in the "monsters as PC" section it says that for every three lvls of Class gained by the group the monster PC should gain an additional Lvl. Assuming that to include the "free" lvls i've started them out with, should the drow technically be starting Cleric 4? Or should that bump hit when he dings 7? Am i reading this right at all?
I'm also wondering how to best adjust encounters for a finesse heavy group. Combat is the centerpiece of our play and i realize that this calls for more traps and situational adjustments playing to the strengths of their classes. How should i adjust the combat proper? More, but weaker monsters? Hide&seek maneuvers in the dark? More saving throws?
This forum has been a well of good advice for me so far, so i look forward to your suggestions. Any help would be hot.
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I don't like the idea of disallowing it at all -- the Player's request isn't too out there, afterall, and there's no Campaign-reason that a Drow Noble wouldn't fit.
Instead, have a talk -- pre-campaign -- with the Player and let him know that the two of you have to keep an eye on the PC, to make sure he's neither overpowered compared to the other PCs (cuz of his Abilities and tricksies), nor underpowered compared to the other PCs (cuz he's waaay behind on caster level and BAB). If after a few sessions you guys see a problem -- make sure the Player knows you guys will have to fix it by adjusting something on the Character sheet.
Now i'm really confused.
The Noble Drow doesn't have racial hitdice, so if it starts at 6 it gets all 6 class levels in Cleric plus all the racial benefits of being a drow?
Is there any way to mitigate that? I may have to disallow that if that's the way that works. That would be a huge imbalance. We were under the impression that it's CR took the place of it's first three class levels. I was fine with the cost to benefit ratio there...
Well he doesn't need the advice, but it really is appreciated...
PC's submitted for pre-approval, and i looks like there will be a dearth of frontline fighters. I got a strait rogue, a ranger, a Close combat w/ a bow ranger (i'm interested in seeing how he does that), a sorcerer, and a Noble Drow Cleric.
Guess which one i'm most confused about.
They're starting at 6th lvl. Drow is CR3+Cleric3=6. But in the "monsters as PC" section it says that for every three lvls of Class gained by the group the monster PC should gain an additional Lvl. Assuming that to include the "free" lvls i've started them out with, should the drow technically be starting Cleric 4? Or should that bump hit when he dings 7? Am i reading this right at all?
I'm also wondering how to best adjust encounters for a finesse heavy group. Combat is the centerpiece of our play and i realize that this calls for more traps and situational adjustments playing to the strengths of their classes. How should i adjust the combat proper? More, but weaker monsters? Hide&seek maneuvers in the dark? More saving throws?
This forum has been a well of good advice for me so far, so i look forward to your suggestions. Any help would be hot.
I am assuming the CR 3 is the noble drow. "Every" class level adds to his character level. That rule you mentioned is for determining CR's for NPC's. CR's don't work exactly like character levels because they have a different function. So if you are counting the noble drow as 3 class levels then he gets 3 cleric levels to go with it. It is a bad idea though because the class levels are hard to replace. The party will have more hit points, skill points, they he will lose caster levels. However if he is intent on playing the drow(I went through that phase myself) then he should get 3 cleric level. Yeah, I know I said it twice.
I forgot to mention that it takes a standard action to turn SR off so any spell coming from another party member that would be a buff has to bypass his SR.
The cr3 drow noble is partial due to being a lvl 3 cleric as far as i can see in the rules if the dm is willing to let it be played it has a 1 level penalty
Monsters as PCs
Using one of the monsters presented in this book as a character can be very rewarding, but weighing such a character against others is challenging. Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully.
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.
For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.
emphasis mine.
Yeah, i'm having trouble finding the rules for Level Adjustment.
The Noble Drow Says it's CR is defined by it's class levels. And the CR 3 example has three levels of Cleric. Monsters as PCs contains an example of a CR 4 minotaur Only getting 2 Class levels but the Minotaur has 6(?) racial HD. How bad am i messing this up?
Should i instruct my player to just make his Character a Drow Cleric 5 then?
I wouldn't adjust the combat at all from what you had planned for six. Way to easy to just cater to the PCs that way, and you don't want to start that way.
Why not? The DM's goal, IMO, isn't to craft a game in which he attempts to defeat the PCs (yes, I know you didn't say that), but rather is to craft a fun, challenging game in which the PCs can succeed using the abilities they have. This requires a certain among of catering to regardless of party composition.
Yeah, i'm having trouble finding the rules for Level Adjustment.
The Noble Drow Says it's CR is defined by it's class levels. And the CR 3 example has three levels of Cleric. Monsters as PCs contains an example of a CR 4 minotaur Only getting 2 Class levels but the Minotaur has 6(?) racial HD. How bad am i messing this up?
The number of hit dice is not the issue for these rules its the CR of creatures with hit dice so the minotaur being 6 HD but CR 4 counts as 4 levels of character class allowing 2 levels to be gained to make hit level 6
Yeah, i'm having trouble finding the rules for Level Adjustment.
The Noble Drow Says it's CR is defined by it's class levels. And the CR 3 example has three levels of Cleric. Monsters as PCs contains an example of a CR 4 minotaur Only getting 2 Class levels but the Minotaur has 6(?) racial HD. How bad am i messing this up?
Pathfinder got rid of level adjustment which was a poor formula anyway.
Racial HD are not as good as class levels. That is why the minotuar can have HD and still be even with the drow who has more class levels. The Noble Drow was not meant to be used by PC's.I am going to retract my earlier advice about saying the drow itself is a CR 3. I forgot it had class levels.
I would have the PC start with 1 or 2 less class levels than everyone else.
My question is how high does the campaign intend to play to?
It is probably worth 2 levels at lower levels, but worth less levels later on. Pathfinder does not have level adjustment buy off like 3.5 did. I would start him off 2 levels behind the party. Around level 10(just an estimate) I would put him only 1 level behind the party if he was starting to suffer(can't contribute). If he had no trouble contributing I would not adjust anything.
The reason I say 2 levels instead of one is that I am not sure if 1 is enough. If you start him 2 behind and things are not looking good you can always help him by allowing him to be only 1 class behind.
so the drow whose HD is its CL gets a CR for every CL when it's NPC, but A PC gets a LA? If the PC's LA = the CR and the CR is the CL shouldn't the PC have CL = to NPC's CL?
I failed algebra. I was an English major...
Ok so we're going to arbitrarily allow the Noble Drow at a LA of two, and around Level nine we have the option to reduce that to and LA of one if he sucks...
I think i can live with that... and considering hes gets another starting CL out of it he'll be alright with that as well.. Thanks i think...
Yeah, i'm having trouble finding the rules for Level Adjustment.
The Noble Drow Says it's CR is defined by it's class levels. And the CR 3 example has three levels of Cleric. Monsters as PCs contains an example of a CR 4 minotaur Only getting 2 Class levels but the Minotaur has 6(?) racial HD. How bad am i messing this up?Should i instruct my player to just make his Character a Drow Cleric 5 then?
Basically this falls under the text quoted by bertious above. Use the drow+drow noble characters section in place of race for the character and he starts as a level 5 cleric. I would count him as level 6 for xp purposes though (so he needs the same xp as everyone else to get to the next level).
Whenever it says '[monster race] characters' or 'creating [monster] use that and not the straight stat block to create a pc or an npc and adjust accordingly.
so the drow whose HD is its CL gets a CR for every CL when it's NPC, but A PC gets a LA? If the PC's LA = the CR and the CR is the CL shouldn't the PC have CL = to NPC's CL?
I failed algebra. I was an English major...Ok so we're going to arbitrarily allow the Noble Drow at a LA of two, and around Level nine we have the option to reduce that to and LA of one if he sucks...
I think i can live with that... and considering hes gets another starting CL out of it he'll be alright with that as well.. Thanks i think...
For the Noble Drow
NPC(Class level = CR)PC(depends on the race since LA is not an exact science)
Not every CR 3 monster is worth 3 levels. It really depends on what abilities the individual monsters have.
You will have to ad-hoc every monster race is basically what I am getting at.
I wouldn't adjust the combat at all from what you had planned for six. Way to easy to just cater to the PCs that way, and you don't want to start that way.Why not? The DM's goal, IMO, isn't to craft a game in which he attempts to defeat the PCs (yes, I know you didn't say that), but rather is to craft a fun, challenging game in which the PCs can succeed using the abilities they have. This requires a certain among of catering to regardless of party composition.
I don't cater because it leads to unnatural storytelling and makes the game feel either far to easy or unfairly difficult, depending on whether I'm catering or anticipating.
My encounters designs don't go by "Ok, a rogue, ranger, and paladin are walking in here," they go by "Ok, this group of bandits has been active for three weeks, gotten ahold of this level of resources, and fortified their position in this way." I don't think about how the party is going to deal with the problem I come up with. That's the player's job. I consider what my bad guys are going to do that would make sense.
Sometimes that leads to an easier encounter (such as when the half-elf cleric with skill focus (Perception) and a HUGE wisdom easily spots the signs of an upcoming ambush). Sometimes the party has to get creative (when the caster/skill based party takes on a melee challenge, or when the half-caster has to deal with a complex magical thing). But in each case my PCs are happy because they've used their strengths to succeed, and not just in a situation that was built for them.
It also leads to creative play from my PCs, which is always a good thing.
I agree in theory. At lower levels I try to think of several solutions to the problem I created to make sure there is one. At higher levels when PC's can do almost anything I don't worry about it so much. If the players can't solve the issue, and they ask you about it after the fact and you don't have an answer either they probably won't be too happy about it.