I am currently GMing kingmaker, and playing in Difficult Terrain. (Serpent Skull)
Kingmaker party is mostly optimized, though not glaringly so, as I gave them 25 point buy, let them use 3.X materials, and they are 5 players. Nuff said, that one was a cake-walk when I was not "compensating" by adding +2-5 to all statistics and upping HP by 20-50%. Made the non-optimized cavalier suffer a little, but they were rarely if ever in any real danger. I attributed the ease to my ignorance of APs, and eventually went core. Now, they still mop the floor with most anything, and only the odd lucky fiend getting a duplicate of itself, or cyclops supported by absurd rolling on my part has been able to claim lives. Except for one weird poison fluke.
But anyways, my real topic:
We are playing a rather un-optimized party in Serpent Skull, using 20 point buy. I am a samurai-flavored paladin/monk in medium armor, switching between archery and 2handing a katana (bastard sword) or longspear. Highest stat was a 16, and no 7s on creation. Same deal with he rest of the party, except the rogue, who started with 18 dex. Also, we have NO arcane caster. Now, I can already hear Codzilla and a few others cringe, but bear with me.
We made it through the first part rather well, except for a few flukes on the GMs side (he rolls ABSURDLY many nat20s, like at least 30 per session, often close to 50), as most enemies had low AC, low to hit and do little damage. Few relevant casters to speak of before end-boss. End dungeon has been beefed something fierce by GM, and we were denied the level we technically earned by being active on the exploration front, so it was kinda tricky, mostly because we rolled laughably bad.
Part 2 comes along, GM feels that he needs to hold us back until the very last moment when the AP says we should level up, beefs enemies, restrict magical item availability, even the cheapest stuff in cities with well over 10k base value. And still he thinks the encounters are too easy, complaining that we hit too easily, and it is too hard to hit us back.
Derail:
Now we are level 6. We have gotten our AC up to 22 or so on average, getting it up to 25 or so with buffs, and he claims that we have too good AC. The only REALLY scary encounters have been surprise attacks (90% of all encounters) by creatures of higher CR, or as mentioned in derail above. Otherwise, there has been some attempts at domination, but we have mostly made our saves, and asking a paladin that also adheres to Bushido to do nearly ANYTHING except standing still saying nothing gives a new save with bonuses, which so far has been the best reward for having a strict Code of Conduct.
This might all seem like a complaint, but in all honesty, it is not. I applaud the notion of setting the bar at a level where people can play characters, and take it easy until there is a reasonable chance to be able to bring people back, before ramping up the difficulty curve. Especially considering the boons and the spirit totems.
So yeah, APs easy? Or just us that work well/GM expectations of difficulty unfounded?
should have added in your post that there is concealment for every enemy we encounter rather than the tiefling rogue with max ranks in the skill, 21 Dex, and skill focus stealth for a total bonus of 18 at sixth level. in our game, stealth only works for PCs when the GM allows it to, and characters with over 15 in perception with magical items to assist never see any of his over 30 stealth checks, because each square counts for +8 in their stealth, but never for the party, oh no...
Yes and no!
The main factor if an AP feels easy or hard for average, "normal" chars (as opposed to 25-point buy fully optimzed powerhouses) is HOW the GM plays the opponents.
Also whats your definition of "too easy"? Not going into negative HPs in each and every fight is vastly different from hardly loosing any HPs at all during 90% of all fights. Both could be viewed as too easy.
should have added in your post that there is concealment for every enemy we encounter rather than the tiefling rogue with max ranks in the skill, 21 Dex, and skill focus stealth for a total bonus of 18 at sixth level. in our game, stealth only works for PCs when the GM allows it to, and characters with over 15 in perception with magical items to assist never see any of his over 30 stealth checks, because each square counts for +8 in their stealth, but never for the party, oh no...
That's just how skills work now. 95% of monsters max their perception, add a feat and have a racial +8. If they are designed to stealth (90% of all jungle beasties), then it's the same story that way. This is why there was a 1400 post long "Rogues are poop" thread recently. Told you to take a different feat... like nimble steps to move in difficult terrain >_>
Yes and no!
The main factor if an AP feels easy or hard for average, "normal" chars (as opposed to 25-point buy fully optimzed powerhouses) is HOW the GM plays the opponents.
Also whats your definition of "too easy"? Not going into negative HPs in each and every fight is vastly different from hardly loosing any HPs at all during 90% of all fights. Both could be viewed as too easy.
Indeed. And what might be hell for one party is a cakewalk for another. Since we do not have a Wizard, we do not have AoE or elemental damage, meaning swarms and elemental-oriented enemies become harder. Such an encounter, while it devastates us as we slowly whittle it away with Alchemist Fire and whatnot, might be over in one round with an arcane caster.
Personally, I judge the sensation afterwards. If it feels like a good win, it was about right. If it just felt tedious, anticlimactic and annoying, it was too easy or, well, just a boring encounter...
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Without an arcane caster it should be easier for the group to keep their collective AC ahead of the curve at lower levels. At later levels you are likely going to be hit frequently no matter what your AC is barring an absurdly focused turtle-shell of a character. Looking at the area of the AP for 6th level- yes you are nearly unhittable by the encounters that are meant to be speed bumps, and the first time you go in you will rightly decimate them. If you are facing something intelligent I would expect them to regroup and try a new approach. The things that are meant to be challenge for you however, all have a 50% or better chance of hitting any of you with every swing. Not to mention bypassing AC is only one way to approach a problem. PCs who have very tough low level AC don't usually have the CMD, or saves to match and their touch AC is an invitation.
Right now your party configuration is helping you. Later on it is going to make things significantly more difficult. Looking at the obituary threads for each adventure path confirms that one groups cakewalk is another's TPK.
How many characters in your group?
Four:
- Ewan Starstrider; Half-elf (post reincarnation) Cleric of Desna. Happy-go-lucky explorer with a soft spot for history, something of a lecher, and not at all home in combat. Most under-optimized character in party. (Con 10, less than 40 hp on lv6 <- that alone should speak volumes)- Bhrenit; Elf Spirit Ranger, archer build. Local savage with painted face-mask, big axe when in melee and has a strange fascination with gnomes. Does what he does quite well. Main source of reliable damage in party.
- Erzbet the Stray; Tiefling Rogue, focusing on skills and defensive two-weapon fighting. Has hellcat blood on her, making her slightly feline and scary. Feels mostly useless, as she gets to sneak attack maybe once per three encounters, due to everything getting the drop on us, and acrobatics & stealth being broken/useless for PCs.
- Toshirou/Hippotoshimus; Human Warrior of Holy Light/Zen Archer (pal/mnk), switch-hitter based on samurai fighting styles, with spears, archery and swordplay. The rest of the party jokingly nicknamed him Hippotoshimus as his spirit animal is a hippo, and he is not all that pleased with being compared to a clumsy and rather repulsive creature that sprays fecal matter to deter others.
@ithuriel: Yes, I have noticed that some encounters are easier than one would expect for us, especially fear-inducing ones, as I am immune, and the cleric can remove fear easily. And we tend to be tenacious, as between me and the cleric, I can stand pretty well against most basic damage-dealers. But, barring magical stuff, I will not have my AC increased, so while my AC might be impressive (26 @lv6 when fighting defensively, and fully buffed, some will think it good, some will laugh at it, for the records, I did the math and learned I could have had 30 if I optimized and ignored playing my concept).
I dunno. It guess instead of "easy" I should say it seems like the APs are for role-players first, and optimizers/war-gamers second.
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I dunno. It guess instead of "easy" I should say it seems like the APs are for role-players first, and...
again, it depends on the group... in a few levels your lack of arcane caster will be an issue, when designers have to plan around people having DDoor/Teleport/Fly/ect... so those encounters will be harder.
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I dunno. It guess instead of "easy" I should say it seems like the APs are for role-players first, and...again, it depends on the group... in a few levels your lack of arcane caster will be an issue, when designers have to plan around people having DDoor/Teleport/Fly/ect... so those encounters will be harder.
Yeah, I am a little worried about that, My group does not have a Arcane Caster.
There are SO many variables that contribute to whether an AP is difficult or not. How it is written is only a very small part. Everything else is up to interpretation, how games are run, how they are played, and a great number of other variables.
I don't think any of the AP's I have run have been too easy (RotRL, CotCT, LoF, Kingmaker). Our body count is pretty typical of what I've seen for years. However, I've not run Serpent's Skull yet so...I could be out of my depth.
Then again maybe my idea of easy and hard are extremely skewed from the OP's?
You're running Kingmaker with 5 25-point buy characters using 3.x stuff I would expect you could sleep through it or run it with any two of those five. The group I'm in just finished book 3 and we have a party of 3 15-point buy characters with 1 cohort.
For Serpent's Skull we've just finished book 1 but there's still only 3 of us and we're using 20-point buy this time. The only encounter we had serious trouble with was the one in the cave under the lighthouse.
I recently just started running the group through CotCT and we're halfway through book 1. Once again, 3 players with 20-point buy. So far not too many difficulties and it does appear to be setup that way on purpose.
So I guess in the long run I'd have to agree somewhat that at least the first few parts of any given AP are easier than the last few.
Creative Director
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No two groups are equally powerful. Thus, it's impossible to design a published adventure to be perfectly balanced for every group. We aim for something a little on the tough side for what we think of as the "average" group (four characters using a 15 point buy with moderately experienced players), then rely on the GM to make the final bit of adjustments necessary to make the adventure properly challenging and entertaining for his particular group of players.
If you're finding that your players are having an easy time of things, my suspicion is that your players have a good combination of skill and luck, and that you should consider ramping up the challenge bit by bit until you get where things are comfortable to you. You can up the power simply by increasing all monster hp totals by 25% or 50%, by applying the advanced monster simple template to everything, adding a few extra monsters to each encounter, and so on; the right combination and magnitudes needed will vary from group to group.
If you try to play through the AP's without 3.5 stuff, and a lower point buy things change a lot.
No two groups are equally powerful. Thus, it's impossible to design a published adventure to be perfectly balanced for every group. We aim for something a little on the tough side for what we think of as the "average" group (four characters using a 15 point buy with moderately experienced players), then rely on the GM to make the final bit of adjustments necessary to make the adventure properly challenging and entertaining for his particular group of players.
If you're finding that your players are having an easy time of things, my suspicion is that your players have a good combination of skill and luck, and that you should consider ramping up the challenge bit by bit until you get where things are comfortable to you. You can up the power simply by increasing all monster hp totals by 25% or 50%, by applying the advanced monster simple template to everything, adding a few extra monsters to each encounter, and so on; the right combination and magnitudes needed will vary from group to group.
I'm the DM for the group mentioned by the OP and I have "amped" things up a few times, but for the most part I have run things as written. I generally dislike adjusting the adventure as written, partially as a concern for balance, but also because it feels a bit like cheating.
I think that the concerns for a lack of challenge comes mostly from the groups superior armor class. Most of the time the monsters as written need a natural 20 to hit even with favorable conditions, and since few monsters have anything going for them except physical attacks there is little they can do to harm the pc's. The players have also been extremely lucky with their saving throws making some possibly horrendous encounters much easier than they could have been. I expect the group to have more troubles once they start to encounter beasties with more magical powers later on.
@Kamelguru and Hu5tru; I agree that the stealth/perception issue can be a pain to handle. It is easy to forget all the relevant modifiers and factors when you have a thousand other things to think about as a DM and I would rather have combat run fast and smoothly then get bogged down by needless minutiae. If that means ignoring a surprise round every now and then so be it. As for the rogue being mostly useless, I am sorry you feel that way. I can assure you that I in no way try to handicap your character on purpose, but as written a rogue is a pretty hard character to play mechanically speaking. A rogue isn't really cut out to be a front line fighter, she's more of a support character when it comes to combat and relies heavily on favorable conditions and team players to be at her most effective. In this particular AP your main concern is all the difficult terrain making it hard to get into a flanking position. There are feats, spells and magical items that can alleviate this problem in some part. There will also be some dungeon crawling going on so not all encounters will be in the jungle.
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You shouldn't feel like its cheating to adjust the AP to your group. It's been written for generic party A, but your group will always be it's own creature. It is meant to be tinkered with.
For example- the opponents who can only hit on a 20... well for one thing your group has focused on AC and these are the levels where they can experience the benefit of that and they should, but I can see it must get old sometimes as the GM.
Advanced simple template gives them another +2 to hit. Higher ground if possible for +1, flanking for +2, aid another for as many +2's as you are willing accrue by sacrificing the action of other mooks who aren't going to hit anyway. Without higher ground or the advanced template but with 3 mooks working together to bring down an armored opponent you can go from none of them able to hit outside of a 20 to ONE of them hitting on 14-20. Advanced makes it 12-20. Higher ground makes is 11-20. But they have to sacrifice actions to do that because the PCs are seriously armored up.
You shouldn't feel like its cheating to adjust the AP to your group. It's been written for generic party A, but your group will always be it's own creature. It is meant to be tinkered with.
For example- the opponents who can only hit on a 20... well for one thing your group has focused on AC and these are the levels where they can experience the benefit of that and they should, but I can see it must get old sometimes as the GM.
Advanced simple template gives them another +2 to hit. Higher ground if possible for +1, flanking for +2, aid another for as many +2's as you are willing accrue by sacrificing the action of other mooks who aren't going to hit anyway. Without higher ground or the advanced template but with 3 mooks working together to bring down an armored opponent you can go from none of them able to hit outside of a 20 to ONE of them hitting on 14-20. Advanced makes it 12-20. Higher ground makes is 11-20. But they have to sacrifice actions to do that because the PCs are seriously armored up.
Problem with this is that AC gets a big bump around level 3-4, when you can afford the optimal armor, and then goes static. My character now has 21/23 with Breastplate+1, Amulet of Natural Armor+1, Dex14, Dodge, and sometimes the buckler+1 kicks in for another +2 when I am not attacking two-handed (drinking a potion, buffing, double move, focusing on defense etc). And he will have 21/23 until I get better magical gear. The only reason I jump past 25-ish is because we buff for +1-2, I can smite for +3 that doesn't stack with neither protection from evil nor shield of faith, and I fight defensively a lot, trading to-hit for AC. If I go complete turtle, fighting one-handed defensively for +3 (3 ranks in acrobatics), smiting for +3, having my defensive buffs up for +1, I hit AC30.
At levels 7-10, I will likely have the same AC. Maybe +1 or +2. Then stuff will hit me far more often. Not until I find an enchanted mithril full-plate will I gain a significant increase in AC. My character refuses to wear proper heavy armor, as he wants to be able to climb and jump when needed. (As the Player Guide warns about)
However, he is not without weaknesses. His touch AC is 13, meaning anything spectral or magical will hit him pretty easy. An encounter earlier in part 2 showed that, when a creature spammed Searing Light, and would have killed him in three rounds were it not for the cleric and his LoH. Which leads me to believe that some of the frustration with AC is that the AP has not been targeting touch AC as much.
The players have also been extremely lucky with their saving throws making some possibly horrendous encounters much easier than they could have been.
And that is just about the ONLY place I roll well. Which I guess is better than hitting, when I think about it.
Since I started taking notes, I have scored a single critical in 3 levels, taken 5-6, and fumbled 7-8 times. New dice I got for Christmas at least keeps around average, which usually is enough to score a hit for a dedicated combat character.
Regarding tweaking: In kingmaker I need to tweak, as the players are somewhere around 50-100% ahead of the Wealth by level curve due to infinite crafting time, there are 5 of them, not counting cohorts, and we use a 25 point buy. Tweak is usually just +20% hp, slight alterations in gear, application of archetypes and a bump in point-buy for the NPC bosses.
The downside of tweaking to challenge strongest characters is that the middling and weaker ones become completely impotent. An encounter built to challenge the frontline fighters will squash the 3/4 Bab classes.
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Yeah, I mentioned that before. Your Touch AC, Saves, and potentially CMD are going to be your weaknesses at this point.
I didn't understand why you thought any of the suggestions above were a problem? The only mechanical change I mentioned was the simple advanced template which basically just adds +2 to most rolls, +4 AC/CMD and +2 hp/level. It is the simple go to as an option when things are just a bit too easy. It is there to use or not as you like. If the GM wanted to use it for a while when things were too easy, he would probably stop using it when encounters started to catch up to the ability of the group and he would probably only want to use it on the mook encounters anyway. Based on the chart in the Bestiary the high attack of a CR 8 monster should have a 50% chance of hitting your guy at AC 25. No adjustments need to be made there. But if the easier encounters have no means to tax the resources of your group whatsoever, then they haven't served their mechanical purpose as a preliminary encounter. Therefore you go into the final encounters with your full resources and they will also be easier than they should be.
Still- I only suggested that as an option among several. The others were all tactical options that npcs who are smart enough should be taking at any chance they can get.
The downside of tweaking to challenge strongest characters is that the middling and weaker ones become completely impotent. An encounter built to challenge the frontline fighters will squash the 3/4 Bab classes.
The thread was originally about the Adventure Path being too easy and that your whole group has high AC. I didn't get the idea that you have some characters outshining the others with the exception of your complaint about the rogue dealing with difficult terrain.
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Also as a side note- a poison using assassin wouldn't register with detect evil until it has 6 HD. If it were undead, an outsider, or a cleric/paladin it would have a stronger aura and you could detect it with fewer HD.
As far as I can tell using poison is not an inherently evil act in PFRPG and a PC or NPC does not have to be evil to use it. However, unless your class or archetype grants the Poison Use class feature you always have a chance of poisoning yourself.
Yeah, I mentioned that before. Your Touch AC, Saves, and potentially CMD are going to be your weaknesses at this point.
I didn't understand why you thought any of the suggestions above were a problem? The only mechanical change I mentioned was the simple advanced template which basically just adds +2 to most rolls, +4 AC/CMD and +2 hp/level. It is the simple go to as an option when things are just a bit too easy. It is there to use or not as you like. If the GM wanted to use it for a while when things were too easy, he would probably stop using it when encounters started to catch up to the ability of the group and he would probably only want to use it on the mook encounters anyway. Based on the chart in the Bestiary the high attack of a CR 8 monster should have a 50% chance of hitting your guy at AC 25. No adjustments need to be made there. But if the easier encounters have no means to tax the resources of your group whatsoever, then they haven't served their mechanical purpose as a preliminary encounter. Therefore you go into the final encounters with your full resources and they will also be easier than they should be.
This is sometimes true, other times not so much. My tactic as a paladin is to save at least one smite for the boss fight, and with both a cleric and a paladin, it might SEEM like we do not lose resources as heavily as another party might. And definitions of "hard" also vary. Some think that unless at least half the party is down on their knees and barely walking away with their limbs intact, it has been too easy. Others think that a hard combat is one that just requires tactics, proper teamwork and a bit of luck.
Still- I only suggested that as an option among several. The others were all tactical options that npcs who are smart enough should be taking at any chance they can get.
Indeed. We have seen time and again just in part 2 that being optimized, if only in gear and feats, can turn a seemingly innocent encounter into murder. Both the times the cleric died, the encounter was quite optimized in terms of gear, feats and tactics, and of course, our GM's average on a d20 being 15 helped.
The downside of tweaking to challenge strongest characters is that the middling and weaker ones become completely impotent. An encounter built to challenge the frontline fighters will squash the 3/4 Bab classes.The thread was originally about the Adventure Path being too easy and that your whole group has high AC. I didn't get the idea that you have some characters outshining the others with the exception of your complaint about the rogue dealing with difficult terrain.
That was more of a general observation. A fighter will always be better at combat than, let's say a rogue, unless you've gone out of your way to only do combat as said rogue, and even then, the fighter would have to be middling. I remember having this problem in 3.X, where core martial classes became utterly irrelevant on high level play, and anything that challenged gishes and casters would trample them without a second thought.
My original intention with the thread was to ask if APs were intentionally made with survivability in mind for the first seven levels, as you have next to no means of coming back, barring GM fiat.
Also as a side note- a poison using assassin wouldn't register with detect evil until it has 6 HD. If it were undead, an outsider, or a cleric/paladin it would have a stronger aura and you could detect it with fewer HD.
As far as I can tell using poison is not an inherently evil act in PFRPG and a PC or NPC does not have to be evil to use it. However, unless your class or archetype grants the Poison Use class feature you always have a chance of poisoning yourself.
Oh, that's not the issue. I know you can use poison and not be evil. What broke the suspense of disbelief with a maul on my part was that someone who have no qualms about murdering people (not to mention good clerics and paladins) for money were not evil. I guess only DABBLING in assassinations among other kinds of work doesn't damn you or something.
Oh, I didn't even try to detect them btw, I smote one of them after he murdered the cleric, and nothing happened.
I'll comment on the Kingmaker issue, as I haven't had a chance to really get into the Serpent Skull path.
My own experience with challenge ratings goes something like this:
Using 3.x with Pathfinder: +0 to +1
Using 25 pt buy: +2
5 players: +1
Optimized: +1
So, an effective challenge for a 4th level party is something like a CR 7 - 8 encounter.
Now, challenge ratings are flexible, subjective, and entirely based on how the GM runs the event, but if you're finding Kingmaker "too easy" I would theorize that you haven't taken the characters into account.
As has already been mentioned, there are too many variables to create the "perfect" adventure. That's the job of the GM. Heck, some of the easiest fights my players had were the most rewarding. I still fondly remember the tank PC punching goblins in Sandpoint because she was so ticked at them for setting fire to everything. Or ganging up on Tsuto (four to one! Poor guy . . .).
I guess the point is, if the players are having fun and feeling like it's not a cakewalk, then you're doing something right. If the players are bored and distracted during play, then the challenge needs to be ramped up.
I'll comment on the Kingmaker issue, as I haven't had a chance to really get into the Serpent Skull path.
My own experience with challenge ratings goes something like this:
Using 3.x with Pathfinder: +0 to +1
Using 25 pt buy: +2
5 players: +1
Optimized: +1So, an effective challenge for a 4th level party is something like a CR 7 - 8 encounter.
Now, challenge ratings are flexible, subjective, and entirely based on how the GM runs the event, but if you're finding Kingmaker "too easy" I would theorize that you haven't taken the characters into account.
Seems about right. I used to counter-optimize encounters, and give them extra HP and effectively upping baddies' "point buy" by giving key enemies bonuses to hit and whatnot.
And yes, I am pretty confident that my kingmaker party can win a CR17-18 battle if they worked at it. Heck, they have beaten encounters 3-4 higher than themselves routinely already. The only times they have had casualties has been through stupidity or bizarre flukes, and most often a combination of these.
One of the "issues" of the CR system is that it's a useful tool, but just as you don't use a sledgehammer to put up nails to hang pictures (nor a tack hammer to build a house).
The optimization issue is probably the biggest issue I have with 3.x. Mix up optimizers and those gamers who are casual towards builds, and you can end up with disaster.
One last bit of wisdom. A GM who says "you guys are way too easy to hit" is rarer than an honest politician. GMs always want to hit more. After all, they are usually playing the losing side! So the question you need to ask is if everyone is having fun. If both parties say yes, call it good and keep on gaming!
One of the "issues" of the CR system is that it's a useful tool, but just as you don't use a sledgehammer to put up nails to hang pictures (nor a tack hammer to build a house).
The optimization issue is probably the biggest issue I have with 3.x. Mix up optimizers and those gamers who are casual towards builds, and you can end up with disaster.
One last bit of wisdom. A GM who says "you guys are way too easy to hit" is rarer than an honest politician. GMs always want to hit more. After all, they are usually playing the losing side! So the question you need to ask is if everyone is having fun. If both parties say yes, call it good and keep on gaming!
Oh, we are for the most part having fun. Jungle is getting kinda tedious now, so we will breathe a sigh of relief when we finally get out of it, and the rogue can shine a little, and tactics such as charging, flanking and so forth becomes relevant again. Ranger might be a little sad though, as he has favored terrain Jungle.
In retrospect, I think the game itself is geared towards survival on lower levels, as martial characters get high enough AC and do enough damage to have a good chance of making it through until later levels, when the opposite is true, and the merit of the casters come into the focus, and the enemies become more of a threat.
One of the "issues" of the CR system is that it's a useful tool, but just as you don't use a sledgehammer to put up nails to hang pictures (nor a tack hammer to build a house).
The optimization issue is probably the biggest issue I have with 3.x. Mix up optimizers and those gamers who are casual towards builds, and you can end up with disaster.
One last bit of wisdom. A GM who says "you guys are way too easy to hit" is rarer than an honest politician. GMs always want to hit more. After all, they are usually playing the losing side! So the question you need to ask is if everyone is having fun. If both parties say yes, call it good and keep on gaming!
Oh, we are for the most part having fun. Jungle is getting kinda tedious now, so we will breathe a sigh of relief when we finally get out of it, and the rogue can shine a little, and tactics such as charging, flanking and so forth becomes relevant again. Ranger might be a little sad though, as he has favored terrain Jungle.
In retrospect, I think the game itself is geared towards survival on lower levels, as martial characters get high enough AC and do enough damage to have a good chance of making it through until later levels, when the opposite is true, and the merit of the casters come into the focus, and the enemies become more of a threat.
Man, posting at 1am makes me say some inane stuff.
Meant to say "martial character's innate AC through optimal gear, and damage levels from innate ability is sufficient to make it through to later levels, when they stagnate unless they have friendly wizards/Gm that drops needed loot/magic-mart around the corner." Fighters can still do some massive damage on higher levels, and if they are tooled out right, they still require 16+ to hit on average, at least in my experience.
Which I guess is about right. A warrior-type is supposed to weather melee, and not be hit by more than every 4 or 5 attack. Otherwise, they would become completely irrelevant, like they did in 3.X, when everything could easily get the ability to hit touch AC, and chainsaw through them in no time flat.
Still need a friendly caster or two to baby-sit them (buff, heal, dispel debuffs, etc) on mid/high level though.
One of the "issues" of the CR system is that it's a useful tool, but just as you don't use a sledgehammer to put up nails to hang pictures (nor a tack hammer to build a house).
The optimization issue is probably the biggest issue I have with 3.x. Mix up optimizers and those gamers who are casual towards builds, and you can end up with disaster.
One last bit of wisdom. A GM who says "you guys are way too easy to hit" is rarer than an honest politician. GMs always want to hit more. After all, they are usually playing the losing side! So the question you need to ask is if everyone is having fun. If both parties say yes, call it good and keep on gaming!
Oh, we are for the most part having fun. Jungle is getting kinda tedious now, so we will breathe a sigh of relief when we finally get out of it, and the rogue can shine a little, and tactics such as charging, flanking and so forth becomes relevant again. Ranger might be a little sad though, as he has favored terrain Jungle.
In retrospect, I think the game itself is geared towards survival on lower levels, as martial characters get high enough AC and do enough damage to have a good chance of making it through until later levels, when the opposite is true, and the merit of the casters come into the focus, and the enemies become more of a threat.
I really wanted you to hate the jungle in this AP, and I think I have succeeded. There will be more ruins and such in part 3 and 4 at least, but there will still be loads of difficult terrain to deal with from rubble and whatnot.
You shouldn't feel like its cheating to adjust the AP to your group. It's been written for generic party A, but your group will always be it's own creature. It is meant to be tinkered with.
For example- the opponents who can only hit on a 20... well for one thing your group has focused on AC and these are the levels where they can experience the benefit of that and they should, but I can see it must get old sometimes as the GM.
Advanced simple template gives them another +2 to hit. Higher ground if possible for +1, flanking for +2, aid another for as many +2's as you are willing accrue by sacrificing the action of other mooks who aren't going to hit anyway. Without higher ground or the advanced template but with 3 mooks working together to bring down an armored opponent you can go from none of them able to hit outside of a 20 to ONE of them hitting on 14-20. Advanced makes it 12-20. Higher ground makes is 11-20. But they have to sacrifice actions to do that because the PCs are seriously armored up.
I have used a sort of "Half" advanced template on occasion and upped the hit points by 25% sometimes. The template basically gives a +1 to everything. I know it's not cheating to tweak the AP to challenge your players, but it still feels like it sometimes.
With all the difficult terrain and a group that can take down most foes in a single round it is difficult to even get the monsters in a position where they can flank or otherwise help each other. I have no problems with some encounters being on the easy side, but it can grow tedious if three or four battles in a row is a mere cakewalk to get through.
I think this is partly due to the level we are playing at. At lower levels you have to be careful what you throw at the players. A couple of more levels and I have a feeling that the encounters might get a bit more interesting.
Could someone give a relative difficulty rating of this campaign compared to Kingmaker and/or Carrion Crown and/or Rise of the Rune Lords?
Could someone give a relative difficulty rating of this campaign compared to Kingmaker and/or Carrion Crown and/or Rise of the Rune Lords?
[u]Melee Combat:[/u] 4. Enemies do not sport exceptional ACs. The encounter format for many books consists of "single combatant vs. party" and so melee combat is often a race to flank and spank. If your DM reads the environment section, there will be difficult terrain. A lot of it.
[u]Ranged Combat:[/u] 6. Two words make any ranged character almost entirely guaranteed to get their organs rearranged at least once a fight: Difficult Terrain.
[u]Spell Combat:[/u] 9. The main enemy of the campaign has a racial stat boost that results in generally high Fort and Will saves, spell resistance and is immune to mind-affecting effects. Good luck.
[u]Social:[/u] 2. I think there is one social check required throughout the entire Adventure Path for success. The opening book has quite a few, but none absolutely necessary.
[u]Knowledges:[/u] 2. Not many necessary Knowledge checks. One character with Know (nature) can identify little over half the encounters in the entire AP.
Compared to Carrion Crown:
[u]Melee Combat:[/u] 5. Enemies do not sport exceptional ACs. The encounter format for many books consists of "many low CR combatants vs. party" and so melee combat is often a race to flank and spank. However, many enemies sport deadly melee carrier attacks such as poisons, disease, paralysis, ability damage and drain.
[u]Ranged Combat:[/u] 2. There are almost no enemies in the entire adventure path that broadside the players, and almost no encounters that contain enemies that try to "sack" ranged players.
[u]Spell Combat:[/u] 2. While undead are immune to mind-affecting effects, almost no enemies throughout the AP have spell resistance. In addition, a channel-focused Sun/Glory cleric can wipe out many encounters on their lonesome-- to the degree that many Paizo posters believe a cleric or life oracle is "absolutely necessary."
[u]Social:[/u] 7. Entire sections of the game rely on diplomacy checks to proceed. Having only one social-focused character can be disruptive to the flow of the game.
[u]Knowledges:[/u] 6. Entire sections of the game lay hidden until revealed through Knowledges. Many encounters are not dressed up as the enemy they appear to be. Having characters with Know (arcana, religion, nature, dungeoneering and local) can make the difference between a prepared party and a dead party.
Could someone give a relative difficulty rating of this campaign compared to Kingmaker and/or Carrion Crown and/or Rise of the Rune Lords?** spoiler omitted **...
I did not understand this statement:
Could someone give a relative difficulty rating of this campaign compared to Kingmaker and/or Carrion Crown and/or Rise of the Rune Lords?** spoiler omitted **...I did not understand this statement:
** spoiler omitted **
Either you stand there, take a full attack, or take an AoO moving away, or take an AoO standing your ground and shooting.
Either way, it's going to hurt.
** spoiler omitted **Could someone give a relative difficulty rating of this campaign compared to Kingmaker and/or Carrion Crown and/or Rise of the Rune Lords?** spoiler omitted **...I did not understand this statement:
** spoiler omitted **
I had forgotten about that rule. I might have to take quickdraw earlier than I expected too. Thanks for the breakdown.
Now I don't get your statement :) How does quickdraw help you with that particular problem?
Now I don't get your statement :) How does quickdraw help you with that particular problem?
Drops a bow, draws a sword, attacks.
I also just realized my awful, awful editing mistake. Siiigh.
The APs are designed around an assumption of 4 players using 15 point buy, yet you are using 20.
If you power-up the PCs, amazingly enough, they will be more powerful than the opposition as printed.
In any case, if you have `optimizing war gamers` as players, I would assume they should cruise thru on the most part,
since the default assumptions WITH 15 pt. buy are in fact the PCs winning all the time (perhaps with losses),
and if they are focusing their attentions extremely on the tactical on optimization side, they should be embarassed if they don`t steam-roll most everything.
The APs are designed around an assumption of 4 players using 15 point buy, yet you are using 20.
If you power-up the PCs, amazingly enough, they will be more powerful than the opposition as printed.
In any case, if you have `optimizing war gamers` as players, I would assume they should cruise thru on the most part,
since the default assumptions WITH 15 pt. buy are in fact the PCs winning all the time (perhaps with losses),
and if they are focusing their attentions extremely on the tactical on optimization side, they should be embarassed if they don`t steam-roll most everything.
I know but we dont like 15 so we use 20. We don't have any real powergamers though. We do have some new guys. I thought I read comments that said this one was easier than the others, but I didn't know if that was due to it actually being easier, or a GM just running it so it was easier.
If this is a particular problem in Race to Ruin, it might be because you get to rest between almost all encounters. Just like the first two adventures in Kingmaker, having the ability to rest between all fights makes them a lot easier (since the PCs can unload several 1/day-abilities). The same CAN be done on the Shiv, but there you have a larger chance of monsters following you home. This will be a recurring balance problem if it's caused by too much resting, as the first adventure with a large-size dungeon is adventure #5.
What I did in our games was to add one or two weaker monsters and maybe up the big guys' hp by around 30% in most encounters. The "the other guys might get there first"-factor in adventure #3 also made my players use each day to he fullest, not just sleep all day.
The first two adventures in the Kingmaker path were extremely easy save for one encounter in Rivers Run Red. It was mainly physical encounters with powerful monsters without caster support. That is a recipe for easy when the PCs have caster support. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
If this is a particular problem in Race to Ruin, it might be because you get to rest between almost all encounters. Just like the first two adventures in Kingmaker, having the ability to rest between all fights makes them a lot easier (since the PCs can unload several 1/day-abilities). The same CAN be done on the Shiv, but there you have a larger chance of monsters following you home. This will be a recurring balance problem if it's caused by too much resting, as the first adventure with a large-size dungeon is adventure #5.
What I did in our games was to add one or two weaker monsters and maybe up the big guys' hp by around 30% in most encounters. The "the other guys might get there first"-factor in adventure #3 also made my players use each day to he fullest, not just sleep all day.
I do this too. If its a one encounter day I just pump up the hit points and/or a stat bump to make the combat more challenging. For other days where its a series of encounters I'll either taper off the HP or CR of the creatures as the player's resources get depleted.
I do like to throw out the odd easy encounter for some light fun. Having an encounter that the players walk over with ease isn't such a bad thing if its every now and then. Same with grinding encounters where its all on the line.
I think it depends on whether you roll for random encounters or put them in. Personally I put them in where I want to either liven up a flat spot, lead the group somewhere, or just generally add a bit more of a challenge. Must admit that with Serpent's skull AP I've found that it hasn't been that easy for the players and we've had one death per book so far. The diseases, difficult terrain and limited resource access has made it a really tough for my players in some sections.
I think it depends on whether you roll for random encounters or put them in. Personally I put them in where I want to either liven up a flat spot, lead the group somewhere, or just generally add a bit more of a challenge. Must admit that with Serpent's skull AP I've found that it hasn't been that easy for the players and we've had one death per book so far. The diseases, difficult terrain and limited resource access has made it a really tough for my players in some sections.
+1
Also, there is a serious dinosaur (more specifically T-Rex) deficiency in this AP, I fixed it with a "random" encounter. Though it lost some of it's magic when I said "You can hear the sounds of a huge creature out in the jungle" and one of my players scream "T-REEEEEEX!!! Let's go kill it!".
I did the T-rex too, but made it a young T-rex. One dead PC, one only a round or two away from death and another severally munted...probably would have been carnage had it been the full adult T-rex.
Definitely have to throw the T-Rex in as an RE in book 2.
Well, it probably can't be the same T-Rex as the second book doesn't take place on the Shiv anymore. And once the group is in the screaming jungle I don't think another high CR encounter is really necessary with the
Why is your DM concerned with it being too easy rather than with whether you are having fun?
One problem is that martial characters are linear and casters are quadratic. So your martial-heavy party is definitely going to rock the early levels: they're designed to. You'll start to have problems once you need a wizard.
If it's so easy, why have you already had a character death?
Why are they always getting to sleep through the night?
+1: 20 point buy, 3e material, 15 minute days. That's going to increase the EL by at least +1, maybe +2.
DM in thread should maybe listen to OP's description of rogue's frustration at being gimped.
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Why is your DM concerned with it being too easy rather than with whether you are having fun?
This +1. My PCs are having a pretty easy time of it (I'm 1/4 of the way through Part 2, no deaths and maybe half-a-dozen down in the negs incidents). But they're having fun developing their characters and enjoying the new setting.
Plenty of time to ramp up the challenge later on.Just my 2 cp.
One thing that is worth pointing out, like roguerouge pointed out, your party is martial heavy. The base assumption of the game is that there will be only 1 primary damage dealer in a party of 4. If you have many, then the game becomes a game of rocket tag, combats are quick and brutal, but when problems are not easily solved by hitting it till it stops moving the challenge becomes disproportionally hard.
As a DM you HAVE to adjust to you're parties abilities. Because even if you are player a fighter, wizard, cleric rogue, the classes can do MANY things now adays. If the fighter is a 2handed smasher, the wizard is an evoker, the cleric is a 'battle cleric' and the rogue is all damage, you have to adjust challenges compared to a reach weapon trip master fighter, a battlefield control wizard, a buff/healing cleric, and a jack of all trades rogue. No AP can prepare for everything. If your party does lots of damage and has lots of AC because they are all martial character, CHANGE THE ENCOUNTERS. Dont just shift stats or apply templates. Change the circumstances of the encounter, the enemies involved, and the general dynamics to better challenge the party you have.
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One thing that is worth pointing out, like roguerouge pointed out, your party is martial heavy. The base assumption of the game is that there will be only 1 primary damage dealer in a party of 4. If you have many, then the game becomes a game of rocket tag, combats are quick and brutal, but when problems are not easily solved by hitting it till it stops moving the challenge becomes disproportionally hard.
As a DM you HAVE to adjust to you're parties abilities. Because even if you are player a fighter, wizard, cleric rogue, the classes can do MANY things now adays. If the fighter is a 2handed smasher, the wizard is an evoker, the cleric is a 'battle cleric' and the rogue is all damage, you have to adjust challenges compared to a reach weapon trip master fighter, a battlefield control wizard, a buff/healing cleric, and a jack of all trades rogue. No AP can prepare for everything. If your party does lots of damage and has lots of AC because they are all martial character, CHANGE THE ENCOUNTERS. Dont just shift stats or apply templates. Change the circumstances of the encounter, the enemies involved, and the general dynamics to better challenge the party you have.
My party had a Martial Paladin with a high stats. He could 1-shot most of the critters in the first adventure. Then we got to the first encounter in the Temple. The Serpent Skeletons were up on a balacony and he could do nothing to them. It neutered him for the encounter and let other players have a chance to shine.
A T Rex may not be the solution, but an ambush by the Rival Faction, where the Agents are snipers up in a tree will challenge your group.
As a DM you HAVE to adjust to you're parties abilities.
+1
Our party facerolls any encounter against a single enemy bc our grapple-barbarian can pin him pretty easily. Conversely they were extremely weak against things with level drain and paralysis, because the druid will consequently not memorize Freedom of Movement or Death Ward, even when they KNOW they will meet undead. To avoid to many easy encounters and TPKs, you have to adjust encounters. But it's a tricky art since players are chaotic beasts, bound to tale the most (to you) insanely reckless course of action or conversely shift into survivalist gear where they can lock down any enemy regardless of power.
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Also its okay that PCs steamroll some encounters. Not every encounter should be a grinding near death experience.
I think the encounter a day element makes the journey to Tarzion fairly easy. If you're finding that its a dull walkover for your group I'd put in RE's just before and/or after the set encounters to drain the groups' resources. You could also adjust the encounters to better challenge your group, such as throw in a spellcaster, boost stats and/or add in additional opponents.
Well, it probably can't be the same T-Rex as the second book doesn't take place on the Shiv anymore. And once the group is in the screaming jungle I don't think another high CR encounter is really necessary with the ** spoiler omitted ** and ** spoiler omitted ** already around. Of course you can do as you please, just saying.
Sorry Null I was meaning that anyone running book 2 should put in a T-rex. Not that I had put one on the Shiv and was putting another in book 2. Basically making a recommendation based on my group's experience with this AP. I'd say that the only place the T-rex belongs is in book 2. The Shiv is too small, already has an apex predator (the RMD) and the characters are far too low a level. Plus a T-rex really belongs in open plains style environment which doesn't fit the Shiv or books 3 & 4.
I put it in between points G & H (2.7 days travel time). My guys easily walked over points F and G so I thought I'd throw in something dangerous. I figured a big predator like a T-rex would have to be a long way from the major cities otherwise they would have dealt with it.
Given at that point your PCs are likely to be levels 5-7 (mine were), I'd recommend making the T-rex young which at least drops down its stats. Its still lethal, particularly if your group isn't prepared or doesn't respect it. I set it up by having the group meet up with some heavily wounded traders who were part of a larger group hit by the T-rex. Basically a diplomatic encounter for the Charisma skills to come into play and a bit of roleplay with the good aligned ones helping the wounded. PCs were able to learn what had happened and buy gear off the traders to help them prepare for the T-rex. My PCs were able to buy low level scrolls and potions, and sell some of the loot they'd picked up along the way.