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Greetings all! In my quest to find a low-magic gritty fantasy mod/setting for Pathfinder; I was directed to E6. For those not in the know, E6 is short for "Epic 6", which postulates that the game is better played with a 6 level cap, for a number of reasons. It was originally developed for DnD 3.0/3.5. For those unfamiliar, here is a link:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-house-rules/200754-e6-game-inside-d -d-new-revision.html
Anyways, in my limited experience with it and Pathfinder, many of the coolest abilities of Pathfinder end up being level 8 abilities; but not in a consistent manner; which leads me to the worry the character balance at 6th level isn't as good as it was in 3.5, and a Pathfinder conversion is... tricky.
Here are some examples:
* Barbarian: The Barbarian doesn't gain DR until level 7, and DR is very much a core aspect of the class, imo. Placing DR at level 6 would stack level 6 very much, giving 3 abilities at the capstone level.
* Bards: Actually balance very well in Pathfinder with E6. (No criticism)
* Clerics: This is where it starts to get messed up. On the one hand, they are limited to 3rd level spells, and E6 suggests using ritualized spells (from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana) for higher level. I REALLY like this aspect. On the other hand, Pathfinders very cool new domain abilities, most of them gain the second power at level 8. Now you might say "just make the level cap 8" but that inherits the problem of 4th level spells, and that is not the level of power I want.
Add to that, many of the 8th level domain abilities are... to be blunt; terrible for a game which caps out at 6th level. Examples:
Artifice Domain: Dancing Weapons (Su): At 8th level, you can give a weapon touched the dancing special weapon quality for 4 rounds. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and an additional time per day for every four levels beyond 8th.
My criticism of this is.. it's just stupid, one which you may or may not disagree with. I guess that has nothing to do with my main point haha. Let's move onto a more relevant example:
Chaos Domain: Chaos Blade (Su): At 8th level, you can give a weapon touched the anarchic special weapon quality for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and an additional time per day for every four levels beyond 8th.
This is mirrored by the Good, Evil and Law Domains respective qualities... the problem with this is; how many outsiders are you fighting at level 6 (or even level 8!) to make this a relevant? I feel like I would have to make new abilities to replace these.
Many of the other abilities in other domains happen at level 8 are really cool; but are achieved at 8th level. I worry about the meta-balance in allowing them two levels earlier. Here are a few examples:
Travel Domain: Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.
Weather Domain: Lightning Lord (Sp): At 8th level, you can call down a number of bolts of lightning per day equal to your cleric level. You can call down as many bolts as you want with a single standard action, but no creature can be the target of more than one bolt and no two targets can be more than 30 feet apart. This ability otherwise functions as call lightning.
Glory Domain: Divine Presence (Su): At 8th level, you can emit a 30-foot aura of divine presence for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. All allies within this aura are treated as if under the effects of a sanctuary spell with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Activating this ability is a standard action. If an ally leaves the area or makes an attack, the effect ends for that ally. If you make an attack, the effect ends for you and your allies.
See these are all awesome, and would make for some awesome capstone abilities. I'm just worried about the balance. This is one of the BIGGEST problems I'm having. Please help here if nowhere else!
* Druid: My only concern with Druids is their "Empty" 4th level. Most other classes in E6 get something at every level; making the 6 level progression more fun. Otherwise, I think they are fine for E6.
* Fighter: No changes really necessary here. Works fine.
* Monk: 1 level short of Wholeness of Body sucks, but otherwise; I think it's just fine.
* Paladin: 2 levels short of Aura of Resolve, but it hardly feels necessary. I'm pretty alright with this too.
* Ranger: 1 level short of Woodland Stride, which I don't think would be too imbalanced to shift to level 6. What do you think?
* Rogue: No problems here either. I think E6 benefits Rogues as is because casters can't usurp their roles with magic or items.
* Sorcerer: This one isn't so bad. The rank 3 bloodline powers come at level 9, and are clearly scaled to that power level, imo. They don't get their first Bloodline Feat until level 7, which I think you could make an argument for giving them at level 6. What do you think?
* Wizard: Very similar to the Domain problem; ALL of the 3rd rank school powers except Abjuration comes at level 8. The issue becomes, can we scale these to level 6 without breaking the meta-balance? Would we have to design some new abilities? Beyond that, again, increasing the level cap to 8 doesn't work; because it allows access to level 4 spells outside of ritual; which I explicitly don't want. Some examples:
Conjuration School: Dimensional Steps (Sp): At 8th level, you can use this ability to teleport up to 30 feet per wizard level per day as a standard action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each additional creature brought with you.
Evocation School: Elemental Wall (Sp): At 8th level, you can create a wall of energy that lasts for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. This wall deals acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage, determined when you create it. The elemental wall otherwise functions like wall of fire.
In conclusion; there are some minor issues with most things.. except Cleric Domain powers and Wizard School powers. These two issues are so overwhelming, I have no idea where to begin. Any help would be appreciated.
-Idle
I'd allow clerics and wizards to get their level 8 domain/school power via a capstone feat. I don't think it would cause a big problem; I can't think of any that are particularly unbalanced. One comment, though:
Chaos Domain: Chaos Blade (Su): At 8th level, you can give a weapon touched the anarchic special weapon quality for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and an additional time per day for every four levels beyond 8th.
This is mirrored by the Good, Evil and Law Domains respective qualities... the problem with this is; how many outsiders are you fighting at level 6 (or even level 8!) to make this a relevant? I feel like I would have to make new abilities to replace these.
You realise that an Anarchic weapon does +2d6 damage against all lawful foes, not just lawful outsiders, right?
I'd allow clerics and wizards to get their level 8 domain/school power via a capstone feat. I don't think it would cause a big problem; I can't think of any that are particularly unbalanced. One comment, though:
You realise that an Anarchic weapon does +2d6 damage against all lawful foes, not just lawful outsiders, right?Chaos Domain: Chaos Blade (Su): At 8th level, you can give a weapon touched the anarchic special weapon quality for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and an additional time per day for every four levels beyond 8th.
This is mirrored by the Good, Evil and Law Domains respective qualities... the problem with this is; how many outsiders are you fighting at level 6 (or even level 8!) to make this a relevant? I feel like I would have to make new abilities to replace these.
I did not realize that, and feel like a fool for not doing enough research. Thank you for clarifying that hogarth!
-Idle
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I personally would not have a problem moving some of the 7/8th level abilities to 6th for E6. Making them capstone feats would be fine also. For the most part they are not that powerful, and will be very limited use thanks to the level cap, mostly only once per day. The fact is that spellcasters get their class features in new spells and spell levels, so their other abilities will seem less impressive when taken by themselves and compared to other class features.
You could also consider a scaled-down version, too. For instance, the original E6 rules have a capstone feat that allows a druid to wild shape into a Large animal (normally received at level 8), but he's limited to one particular Large animal.
So, for instance, you could limit the ability to be only once per day for 6 rounds instead of 6 rounds/day broken up as desired.
Creative Director
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The point of a capstone ability is to reward you for reaching the highest level available in your game. In the core rules, that happens to be 20th level.
Converting those rules to E6 or E8 or any other level cap isn't something that we directly support in the game, but it's certainly a fun way to play the game. If you DO play the game this way, though, I very strongly recommend that you add a new capstone ability to whatever level ends up being your level cap. The easiest way to do this is to just graduate down from a higher level ability, moving that ability down to serve as a new level cap ability. You'll probably want to pick abilities from the same levels for all your classes, obviously, to preserve the fairness between the classes; this'll be tricky for some classes like cleric who don't get many special abilities.
I'm actually kind of interested in seeing how simply moving the current 20th level capstone abilities down to whatever level ends up being your max level would work out. It'd probably make the PCs a little too powerful for the tastes of GMs who want to run E6 or whatever games, but I wonder if it'd manage to ride the line between "too powerful" and "cool."
(shrug) In any case, don't be afraid to give your players new capstone abilities if you lower the level limit in your game, is all. That's what we would do for sure if we were to officially produce a lower level limit game.
(shrug) In any case, don't be afraid to give your players new capstone abilities if you lower the level limit in your game, is all. That's what we would do for sure if we were to officially produce a lower level limit game.
James, the idea of "capstones" is explicitly built into the E6 rules. Generally, the idea is that if you take 6 levels in the same class, you can buy a 7th or 8th level ability with a feat.
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I can't find the E6 rules from the OPs link but if my understanding/memory is correct characters still sort of progress after reaching 6th level - via feats.
So if there is a progress or tracking after 6th you could make some tiered abilities (limited in power of course) tied to feat purchases -so everything still stays capped at 6th, but you can actually be able to buy some higher level (again max 8th) class abilities by using feats or multiple feat slots (for greater power). Using feats as currency for buying a range of 7th - 8th level powers.
Not sure if that made any sense.
When I converted Pathfinder for an E6 campaign that never happened I took all those 7th and 8th level abilities and had them as capstone feats that could be taken after characters have achieved 6th level. I thought it would work well and my potential players thought it was a good idea, but I never got to see if it worked in play since I lost some players and the game never happened.
@OP (IdleMind): yea, the 6th vs 8th Cleric stuff is the thing hamstringing me more than anything else in my converstion attempts as well. Because I like to "feat in" up to 8th level abilities as well... but what to do when some come in at 6th? I would hate to just ban domains with 8th level powers. But dropping them down to 6th (or feating them out) seems incongruous.
I'm actually kind of interested in seeing how simply moving the current 20th level capstone abilities down to whatever level ends up being your max level would work out. It'd probably make the PCs a little too powerful for the tastes of GMs who want to run E6 or whatever games, but I wonder if it'd manage to ride the line between "too powerful" and "cool."
I like that idea, I never thought quite about doing that. Hmm. Maybe not make it available right away, but have it be selectable after some point (say, after 10 bonus feats). You'd have to change things up a bit: for example, give the Fighter choice of either Armor Mastery or Weapon Mastery. (And figure out something for Clerics.)
Ironically, if this becomes codified into E6 rules, you might see capstones getting table-use most often in that context (rather than in the traditional 20+ context).That's what we would do for sure if we were to officially produce a lower level limit game.
Just, by the way, if you're wondering, or need encouragement, or whatever, there is a market for this. And E6 APs too. Us low-level types loves us some crazy long and epic plotlines too.
Hi, I was wondering if you were planning a PbP game or if this is for a home game. I have never played an E6 nor a PbP game before, but would love to give it a chance. All my friends here don't like gritty/low fantasy type games. Even though we never seam to play anything past lvl 12 in any of our games. They seam to get board and want to start something different all the time. They may have the MMORPG "alt-aholic syndrome" or something. If you are running a PBP or if anyone knows of one starting soon, and doesen't mind a newb joining, please let me know.
Thanks 4G63