Your parents kill you at Birth - and other less fatal die rolls


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YOUR PARENTS KILL YOU AT BIRTH
AND OTHER LESS FATAL DIE ROLLS

Player: Oops! My strength is a roll of 3. Can I roll again?
DM: Nah! Stick with it.

Frankly this is unrealistic even in a Fantasy setting. There are consequences for getting a low Ability roll in Classic D&D.

THE CONSEQUENCE OF ROLLING 3D6
Let’s look at the odds of your possible ability values. Notice the nice bell-curve of 216 possible dice rolls.

3d6 ability..............spread...................%
3.............................1.....................0.46
4.............................3.....................1.39
5.............................6.....................2.78
6.............................11....................5.09
7.............................15....................6.94
8.............................21....................9.72
9.............................25...................11.57
10...........................27....................12.50
11...........................27....................12.50
12............................25...................11.57
13............................21....................9.72
14............................15....................6.94
15............................11....................5.09
16.............................6.....................2.78
17.............................3.....................1.39
18.............................1.....................0.46

Basically you have a bit over 48% chance of getting a 9-12, over 25% for a stat of 13+ and less than ½% of getting an 18.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A CHILD IS BORN?
Very low ability results are mostly physical aberrations that are looked on by society as unacceptable. Anyone with a very low physically recognized aberration (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution) is likely to be knocked on the head at birth; on the other hand those of only a slightly reduced physical ability will probably survive, while multiple poor physical abilities might draw attention.
Intelligence can escape notice for a few years but it will become quickly obvious that you lack the brains to be acceptable to the social order you will be knocked off while those slightly more intelligent who lack the ability to read and write will be relegated to menial.
Charisma can be measured as physical good looks as well as personality so it is hard to decide whether you will be disposed of. A particularly ugly baby will probably be disposed of, and so will a child who is particularly introverted and shy.
Wisdom most of all is a measure of Judgement and gullibility and a very low trait will escape the social order though not if you repeatedly stick your hand in the blacksmith’s forge to find out if the fire is real.
For non-humans these priorities are somewhat different. You may have noticed that elves, dwarves, and Halflings require minimums in certain abilities.

Human
There are no minimums for human but there will be social expectancies.
Str/Int/Dex/Con =3-5: Disposed of at Birth or during early Childhood.
Wis/Cha = 3: Disposed of during early Childhood.
Cha = 4-5: Always considered emotionally weak; might be disposed of in early childhood depending on barbarity of culture.

Optional: The Mystic
This Human class requires a minimum Wisdom and Dexterity of 13. While they might accept the deformed and outcast of Humanity, they insist on exceptional Dexterity and Wisdom:
Dex/Wis 13+, Str/Int/Con/Cha 3+

Elf
Minimum Intelligence (9): So an elf child is disposed of for being unable to learn reading and writing. This means the Elves require you to have the ability to preserve their written culture.
They also value strength and intelligence as a species – the rewards greater for those better endowed.
Let’s say they have a higher charisma threshold – ugly babies are not elf enough and introverts not as outgoing as they should.
Str/Con/Dex/Cha 6+, Int 9+, Wis 4+

Dwarf
Minimum Constitution (9): Amongst Dwarves there is no room for those who can’t put in a full day’s work.
While Strength, Dexterity, Charisma, Wisdom, even Intelligence are not a priority, it is still important to Dwarves that they not be grossly defective.
Str/Dex/ Int 6+, Wis/Cha 4+, Con 9+

Halfling
They have even greater expectations than Elves and Dwarves. Being a particularly small race, and limited in power of advancement the Halflings cull those who present even the slightest defect in Constitution or Dexterity.
They are a somewhat good looking and outgoing people so there is obviously some effort to minimize weaknesses in charisma.
Str/Int/Cha 6+, Wis 4+, Con/Dex 9+

SO WHAT ABOUT YOUR PC?
Well, most likely you survived the rigorous selection criteria of birth and childhood imposed on you and your parents by society. That means you will have the certain minimum requirements in your Abilities that are acceptable to society.
But what of results that are not of the acceptable minimum? While we don’t like to restrict the player’s PCs, there must be a price paid. It is here that we have the possibility that you slipped the net or will be considered a social outcast for life because your parents didn’t toss you off the cliff for that inability to read and write.
Does this mean my elf doesn’t need to conform to the Minimums of the non-humans? Only if you don’t want to, after all – you can have an Elf who is a foul deformity and aberration because your parent(s) broke the rules that protect the elf race – just don’t expect to be treated like anything other than an Orc nailed to an archery target by your fellow elves.

Written by: Sean R. Meaney


What?

The Exchange

Lyingbastard wrote:
What?

Whats Wrong?

Sovereign Court

Are you seriously suggesting that 19.44% of all human births would be "disposed of"?

The Exchange

Calixymenthillian wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that 19.44% of all human births would be "disposed of"?

Certainly in a more brutal world like D&D, yes. Otherwise they would be a burden on the civilization that the civilization would not survive.

If an NPC was born with 3 intelligence (barely above animal) - in all liklyhood the parents of the NPC would nock him/her on the head by the age of six. So we instantly have a culture of exterminating the bottom end of our possible bell curve of population.

SO conceivably the 19.44% who failed to meet the minimum acceptable stat level accepted by society would be already exterminated from the population...leaving people with stats that dont go anywhere near the bottom of the ability bellcurve.

So unless you intend to play your PC as a deformed social outcast that the average Spartan would stick a spear in or toss in a pit, you should roll the ability again until it isnt below six.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
yellowdingo wrote:
Calixymenthillian wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that 19.44% of all human births would be "disposed of"?

Certainly in a more brutal world like D&D, yes. Otherwise they would be a burden on the civilization that the civilization would not survive.

If an NPC was born with 3 intelligence (barely above animal) - in all liklyhood the parents of the NPC would nock him/her on the head by the age of six. So we instantly have a culture of exterminating the bottom end of our possible bell curve of population.

I think you are confusing the majority of Civilization with the Spartans, Yes the Spartans are known for that but Not most of civilization.

That said, it would be unlikely such a child would survive child hood because of other reasons but not because their family killed them off.

Sovereign Court

Brutal world or not, childbirth is a risky business, if you're lucky enough to survive it, I doubt you'd be willing to throw away the result 1 in 5 times.

The Exchange

It puts a whole new spin on those minimum racial stats...

The Exchange

double post

Dark Archive

yellowdingo wrote:
If an NPC was born with 3 intelligence (barely above animal) - IN ALL LIKELYHOOD the parents of the NPC would nock him/her on the head by the age of six

Capitals mine. Yeah is the most probable thing to happen...Are you serious?

The Exchange

ESCORPIO wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
If an NPC was born with 3 intelligence (barely above animal) - IN ALL LIKELYHOOD the parents of the NPC would nock him/her on the head by the age of six
Capitals mine. Yeah is the most probable thing to happen...Are you serious?

Can you imagine what a D&D human city looks like where that doesnt happen? For intelligence alone, 4.5% of the population would be considered animal - sub human in intelligence. In a city of 10,000 that equates to 450 people - who are likely living in back alleys and sewers, or contained in prisons as a threat to the rest. There are over 26% who cannot read or Write because they lack intelligence to do so and if we remove the 4.5% who are animal/sub human that leaves 21.5% (2150) who are treated as little more than menials.


So what's the point of this?


Yellowdingo is, IMHO, describing the worst case scenario. We have a modern society that has been educated to the lowest common denominator, including the naturally inept. In a Dark Age medieval type society, which a lot of D&D is based upon, it was 'survival of the fittest'. Especially for those not in the rich class. A CON of 3 doesn't mean multiple afflictions - it means you are sickly, get sick often, and are not as naturally robust as a person with a CON of 10. If you were the first son or a daughter of a noble, you got to live but you were known as 'sickly'. If you were a peasant's child, then you might not make it past age five, or the next harsh snowfall.

Other 'threes' were dealt with in a similar fashion, according to wealth and the century you were born in. INT of 3? Muck hauler or insane asylum. WIS of 3? Gardner or monastery. CHA of 3? He'll be drunk more than he'll find a woman, or she'll work as a scullery maid the rest of her life.

After the Renaissance it wasn't much better. Our "enlightened" attitude of the Gentle Giant or the Hunchback with a Heart of Gold is very modern, and very merciful, compared to the last few millennium.


Luckily, the powers that be controlling my gameworld opted for point buys and fixed stat arrays for the people. Avoiding all that culling. It was just too depressing. Only ones that miss it are the corpse haulers. But they are an odd bunch already.

Greg

Sovereign Court

I'm not going to get into the children disposal discussion, but I would say that someone with a 3 in any physical stat would not be suitable for a life of adventuring. Having a 3 stat in a mental stat might still work for a thuggish brute.

The Exchange

sputang wrote:
I'm not going to get into the children disposal discussion, but I would say that someone with a 3 in any physical stat would not be suitable for a life of adventuring. Having a 3 stat in a mental stat might still work for a thuggish brute.

Which is why the Miller probably has Bob the Animal(Str 18,Int 3) tied to his mill wheel and throws him raw meat and food scraps. Certainly it is a matter of time before Bob breaks free and goes on a rampage killing folk.

Sovereign Court

There is the chance of that, but if Bob the Animal was a PC, then I'd say it's more of a George and Lenny thing with the party brain.

The Exchange

sputang wrote:
There is the chance of that, but if Bob the Animal was a PC, then I'd say it's more of a George and Lenny thing with the party brain.

It would take a gifted pair of Players to roleplay those two roles...

But now if we throw the PCs into the opposite end of the pool where they must deal with Bob the Animal out on a rampage, the moral ambiguity of Bob being treated like an Animal by the Miller, as well as Society's decision to exterminate/cage Bob rather than find a better alternative...

We can really test the Players for all they are worth. Imagin a PC being treated badly by the Villagers because his below acceptable Stat draws their atttention.

SO now when your PC is wandering through the city at night, and thinks he/she is being followed - slipping down an alley to lose them - the PC is ambushed front and back by twenty sub-humans who attack and kill your PC as food.

Dark Archive

yellowdingo wrote:
Which is why the Miller probably has Bob the Animal(Str 18,Int 3) tied to his mill wheel and throws him raw meat and food scraps. Certainly it is a matter of time before Bob breaks free and goes on a rampage killing folk.

Yeah because the most logical thing to do with a person with int 3 is chain him and call him animal, and everyone knows that when someone with int 3 is free starts killing people for no reason (well maybe if he is chained and called animal could all this make some sense).

Average int is 10 the 3-18 is intended for playing characters, excepcional caracters get a 15-14-13-12-10-8 reaaly excepcional characters like pc have some other stats a 3 is not a 0.46% but rarer.

I nominate all this to the darwin prize, for both nosense and too dumb to live, your call to who deserve what.

The Exchange

ESCORPIO wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
Which is why the Miller probably has Bob the Animal(Str 18,Int 3) tied to his mill wheel and throws him raw meat and food scraps. Certainly it is a matter of time before Bob breaks free and goes on a rampage killing folk.

Yeah because the most logical thing to do with a person with int 3 is chain him and call him animal, and everyone knows that when someone with int 3 is free starts killing people for no reason (well maybe if he is chained and called animal could all this make some sense).

Average int is 10 the 3-18 is intended for playing characters, excepcional caracters get a 15-14-13-12-10-8 reaaly excepcional characters like pc have some other stats a 3 is not a 0.46% but rarer.

I nominate all this to the darwin prize, for both nosense and too dumb to live, your call to who deserve what.

Actually the article is Classic D&D. It is entirely accurate assessment of Classic D&D.

Dark Archive

I have always understand that average people tend to stand in the middle and dice rolls as such are for PCs.

Also the opening quote is funny but I dont picture that happening,most players have never used the strict 3ds in order, no rerolls, stick with first. So funny to see the math breakthrough but I didn see that as an accurate representation of the game world demography.

Shadow Lodge

Using the 4d6 method, the statistics will skew toward the higher numbers. Certain things will be the same, certain things will be drastically different. Getting a 3 will be a less than a .08% chance, while getting an 18 will still be a 1.852% chance. For the former to occur, you'd have to roll four 1s, while the latter only needs to roll three 6s and then any number. I can crunch the numbers and re-post them later.


My Wisdom is pretty low at times, will someone please cull me out of the herd. I can read and write but I have a motivation of 3 so I really plan on just being a burden to society.


EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
My Wisdom is pretty low at times, will someone please cull me out of the herd. I can read and write but I have a motivation of 3 so I really plan on just being a burden to society.

Shhh! Get back to work on that Legion game!

Greg

The Exchange

ESCORPIO wrote:

I have always understand that average people tend to stand in the middle and dice rolls as such are for PCs.

Also the opening quote is funny but I dont picture that happening,most players have never used the strict 3ds in order, no rerolls, stick with first. So funny to see the math breakthrough but I didn see that as an accurate representation of the game world demography.

But as you say NPCs are balanced for an average of 9-12 so as there are NPCs with 18 Intelligence, there would be NPCs with 3 Intelligence to maintain that Balance - however the Society/social order into which they are born cannot stand NPCs with low stats so they exterminate them or remove them from society. While NPCs with high intelligence are useful - even benifical to the state (except amongst the Menial caste where they might pose a threat).


*Reads through thread*

Gee...and here it was I was originally thinking this was a thread about the old 'Traveller' game's character generation system....

=0)

Much seasons cheers to people.


Just a reminder to everyone here - Stats of 3 aren't, as the poster said, "sub human". They are, in fact, the very minimal that a human could get. An Int of 3 would be something like a drooling idiot - subliterate, but still capable of understanding orders. He'd likely be kept as a stable hand or harmless servant by most families (with your Bob the Animal example above by your crueler folk.)

As an enlightening example, Minsc from the Baldur's Gate series has an Int of 8 and a Wis of 6. And he was little more than amusingly crazy, not a drooling, useless idiot.


yellowdingo wrote:
Can you imagine what a D&D human city looks like where that doesnt happen? For intelligence alone, 4.5% of the population would be considered animal - sub human in intelligence. In a city of 10,000 that equates to 450 people - who are likely living in back alleys and sewers, or contained in prisons as a threat to the rest. There are over 26% who cannot read or Write because they lack intelligence to do so and if we remove the 4.5% who are animal/sub human that leaves 21.5% (2150) who are treated as little more than menials.

As mentioned 3 is minimum human intelligence, not sub-human. Not to mention that in a D&D world it's unlikely that the full 4.5% would live into adulthood. Beyond that low intelligence, easily manipulated, people can be extremely useful in a low technolgy world. Somebody has to do the more unpleasant jobs which the aristocracy wouldn't touch with a 10' pole. Why not let the 3 intelligence guy do it, who doesn't know how bad he has it?


, wrote:

*Reads through thread*

Gee...and here it was I was originally thinking this was a thread about the old 'Traveller' game's character generation system....

=0)

Much seasons cheers to people.

Reading the title it was my first thought as well, nothing like gambling on extra terms of service to only fail your survival roll and start over. yay.

(Traveler was my first RPG, didn't really understand it till I saw my first DnD game a year later. It didnt clik with my stepfather at the time either, that is why he gave it to me. )


Archmage_Atrus wrote:

Just a reminder to everyone here - Stats of 3 aren't, as the poster said, "sub human". They are, in fact, the very minimal that a human could get. An Int of 3 would be something like a drooling idiot - subliterate, but still capable of understanding orders. He'd likely be kept as a stable hand or harmless servant by most families (with your Bob the Animal example above by your crueler folk.)

As an enlightening example, Minsc from the Baldur's Gate series has an Int of 8 and a Wis of 6. And he was little more than amusingly crazy, not a drooling, useless idiot.

Yeah, but to be fair, he did have Boo to aid him with any of the complex problems.

Dark Archive

One of the great advantages of humans as a specie is the empaty, wich allows us to care for each other and help one another. We arent like tigers going alone without care for each other (wich for humans will be a very bad strategy), persons who lack that empaty (the type wich could approve a culling the weak ideology) are called psychopats, things arent white or black and sometimes societies get strange ideas and hold to them (religion,feet binding, genital mutilation, genocide those jews and so on) but those are exceptions, not the rule, people with disabilities have worked and being productive all through history. Where do you think that the dwarfs as great artisans comes to beging with?


While infanticide was somewhat common (but mostly frown upon) in ancient time, I think it was mostly done on unwanted newborn, whatever it was unwanted because of deformities, overpopulation or social status. I seriously doubt there was a lot of parents that killed their infant because they found out he/she was shy or a bit simple once he/she was no longer a baby. Also don't forget that a lot of child didn't make it to adulthood because of "normal" infant mortality not because their parents killed them. I guess a child with low physical scores (especially constitution) has more chance to die due to diseases and whatnots.


Reptilian wrote:
Also don't forget that a lot of child didn't make it to adulthood because of "normal" infant mortality not because their parents killed them. I guess a child with low physical scores (especially constitution) has more chance to die due to diseases and whatnots.

This tends to be why I question adventurers with too many low stats. Their parents probably aren't going to deliberately kill them, but their chances of surviving long enough to reach adulthood just are not very high in the kind of world that DnD and Pathfinder represent.

Dark Archive

Reptilian wrote:
This tends to be why I question adventurers with too many low stats. Their parents probably aren't going to deliberately kill them, but their chances of surviving long enough to reach adulthood just are not very high in the kind of world that DnD and Pathfinder represent

I dont think so,in d&d worlds most people dont go adventuring, so aside of being somewhat more dangerous than the real world there is no reason for people with low stats not reaching adulthood.

Heh, goblins and kobolds must be all dead.

The Exchange

Archmage_Atrus wrote:

Just a reminder to everyone here - Stats of 3 aren't, as the poster said, "sub human". They are, in fact, the very minimal that a human could get. An Int of 3 would be something like a drooling idiot - subliterate, but still capable of understanding orders. He'd likely be kept as a stable hand or harmless servant by most families (with your Bob the Animal example above by your crueler folk.)

As an enlightening example, Minsc from the Baldur's Gate series has an Int of 8 and a Wis of 6. And he was little more than amusingly crazy, not a drooling, useless idiot.

INT 2: Smart Animal

INT 3: Sub Human. "Ngh!"
INT 4-5: Idiot Menial. "Koto Work!"
INT 6-8: Unable to learn Reading and Writing. "What this Say?"
INT 9: The Minimum Intelligence required to be able to learn reading and Writing.

Shadow Lodge

There would be plenty of reason for people with low stats not reaching adulthood. Including but not limited to:

  • Low Con - falling prey to disease, not being able to outrun something chasing you which then kills you
  • Low Int - not knowing a wild animal is dangerous, or not to eat certain wild plants, or a whole host of other things
  • Low Wis - not being aware of something (such as a runaway cart that kills you), lacking in common sense (which can be deadly)
  • Low Dex - not being able to dodge that runaway cart even if you are aware of it, losing your balance and falling to your death
  • Low Str - being crushed under something
  • Low Cha - offending somebody in such a way as to result in death

    A number of these apply in the current world, too. I'm pretty sure not one of the things I listed is D&D/Path specific.

  • Dark Archive

    jlighter wrote:

    There would be plenty of reason for people with low stats not reaching adulthood. Including but not limited to:

    Low Con - falling prey to disease, not being able to outrun something chasing you which then kills you

    Low Int - not knowing a wild animal is dangerous, or not to eat certain wild plants, or a whole host of other things

    Low Wis - not being aware of something (such as a runaway cart that kills you), lacking in common sense (which can be deadly)

    Low Dex - not being able to dodge that runaway cart even if you are aware of it, losing your balance and falling to your death

    Low Str - being crushed under something

    Low Cha - offending somebody in such a way as to result in death

    There is a difference between could end in death, and usually end in death, most people dont end dead for offending someone with their low cha. One wonders how most people live to adulthood, especially looking at the wilderness random encounters tables of the game with a 10% of encounter each hour with a challege rating 5 or 8 creature, as we usually joke on my group "commoners here are all 20th level". I supose that the gaming world is more logical than that.

    Liberty's Edge

    yellowdingo wrote:
    ESCORPIO wrote:
    yellowdingo wrote:
    If an NPC was born with 3 intelligence (barely above animal) - IN ALL LIKELYHOOD the parents of the NPC would nock him/her on the head by the age of six
    Capitals mine. Yeah is the most probable thing to happen...Are you serious?
    Can you imagine what a D&D human city looks like where that doesnt happen? For intelligence alone, 4.5% of the population would be considered animal - sub human in intelligence. In a city of 10,000 that equates to 450 people - who are likely living in back alleys and sewers, or contained in prisons as a threat to the rest. There are over 26% who cannot read or Write because they lack intelligence to do so and if we remove the 4.5% who are animal/sub human that leaves 21.5% (2150) who are treated as little more than menials.

    That seems perfectly fine and is not a bad reflection on a city of a D&D world. I would have thought that 26% is low for those who can't read/write in a such city in fact. What would most of the population need to know those skills for? Basic counting for buying/haggling would be all that is required. If an intelligence 1-2 animal survive in a city on animal cunning why couldn't an intelligence 3 person?

    But the major point, overlooked, is that STATS are for PC's and major NPC's. Nearly ALL of the inhabitants of a city in 1e AD&D are zero level and can perform the function the DM needs them too completely fine. Need a potter who can quote poems and has an idiot child - BLING! The 1e DMG comes to your rescue and says - here they are DM, use them to entertain your players. I'll admit in a 3e+ your argument has much more traction given that being a potter appears to be a class Expert(potter). Hmmm, killed by a level 20 Potter - now that would be embarrassing.

    1e AD&D is for those who like a dose of reality with their fantasy - 3e+ is for those who don't... ;)

    I think such discussion of numbers is over-analysis.

    S.

    Shadow Lodge

    ESCORPIO wrote:
    There is a difference between could end in death, and usually end in death, most people dont end dead for offending someone with their low cha.

    Thus the "in such a way as to result in death." Not saying it's at all likely, just that it's possible. More often than not, though, even that would likely be the result of a low-Int or low-Wis decision, not a low-Cha. Seems a tad difficult to die from low charisma.

    ESCORPIO wrote:
    One wonders how most people live to adulthood, especially looking at the wilderness random encounters tables of the game with a 10% of encounter each hour with a challege rating 5 or 8 creature, as we usually joke on my group "commoners here are all 20th level". I supose that the gaming world is more logical than that.

    Living to adulthood used to be a lot harder than it is. "Adulthood" also used to have a far different number attached to it than it does now, and it was still hard to reach. To quote a certain Hobbit:

    Bilbo Baggins wrote:
    It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.

    In the event that my life is filled with kidlings at some point in the future, I'll have to remember to warn them of the 20th-level Commoners and Potters out there waiting to kill them.


    jlighter wrote:
    In the event that my life is filled with kidlings at some point in the future, I'll have to remember to warn them of the 20th-level Commoners and Potters out there waiting to kill them.

    Don't forget the TawnyWarrigal.

    Dark Archive

    jlighter wrote:
    Living to adulthood used to be a lot harder than it is. "Adulthood" also used to have a far different number attached to it than it does now, and it was still hard to reach.

    I was reading about greek culture and not so much, their adulthood was very similar to ours and full political rights were not complete until 30.


    yellowdingo wrote:


    INT 2: Smart Animal
    INT 3: Sub Human. "Ngh!"
    INT 4-5: Idiot Menial. "Koto Work!"
    INT 6-8: Unable to learn Reading and Writing. "What this Say?"
    INT 9: The Minimum Intelligence required to be able to learn reading and Writing.

    I like most of where you're going with this, except I don't think Int 9 is the minimum intelligence required to read/write. It's certainly no rule I've ever heard of.

    Being an individual who works with people of "lower than average" intelligence on a daily basis, I'd put the inability to learn how to read or write at far lower - Int 4, at best. Even Koto could read a few simple words - and while perhaps he might not be able to develop grammatical usage, he'll understand what "cat", "dog", and "poison" are.

    Edit: In fact, the rules explicitly contradict what you're saying:

    PRD, Ability Scores, Intelligence Modifier wrote:
    The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.

    Emphasis mine.

    The Exchange

    Archmage_Atrus wrote:


    Edit: In fact, the rules explicitly contradict what you're saying:

    PRD, Ability Scores, Intelligence Modifier wrote:
    The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
    Emphasis mine.

    You are reading the wrong Rulebook. This is Rules Cyclopedia D&D straight from 1980s.

    INT 8: Unable to Read or Write.

    Liberty's Edge

    yellowdingo wrote:


    You are reading the wrong Rulebook. This is Rules Cyclopedia D&D straight from 1980s.

    INT 8: Unable to Read or Write.

    Reading and writing weren't high on the list of things the mass required to survive. That aside, I like this discription better than the PF one. The PF description of INT 3 makes little sense with regards to reading.

    Sovereign Court

    yellowdingo wrote:


    SO now when your PC is wandering through the city at night, and thinks he/she is being followed - slipping down an alley to lose them - the PC is ambushed front and back by twenty sub-humans who attack and kill your PC as food.

    That's unlikely it'd get this far.

    They'd need to organize themselves together, without someone in charge noticing, and given their stats, they are fairly obvious.

    More likely scenario : the thieves guild notices, and recruits a bunch of new enforcers. Hire a wizard to do the job (low will saves) to command them if needed.

    If they ever got to that on their own, they are likely to become ghouls (this is what these curses are for).

    Other options : they never organize as they are bought or kidnapped by a circus. In the case of Bob the animal, that is a pretty high possibility.


    yellowdingo wrote:

    You are reading the wrong Rulebook. This is Rules Cyclopedia D&D straight from 1980s.

    INT 8: Unable to Read or Write.

    Oh duh, yeah. I forgot that you used to have to actually spend proficiencies to know how to read/write. I still was not aware there was an Int cap on it, though.

    I think the best that can be said... is that this is the reason the game went from being 3d6 to 4d6. *Much* lower chances of rolling a 3.


    The starting text of this thread puts the cart before the horse. The minimum requirements for the various races are not an indicator of any "weeding out" by these races, but rather, the minimum level of competence that an adult of this species will have due to natural reasons. Besides, the rules item of "race x needs at least attribute y" is not something that would be a racial law in the game world itself, but is purely a rules thing. Arguing rules items with in-game logic leads to nothing, except strange texts like the above. And how would the dwarfs measure if a child has a con of 8 or 9? Hit it until it is down to 0 hit points, and see how many hits it takes? The whole text is absurd.

    Very low attributes will indeed lead to many deaths of infants and children, but even average does not ensure survival (if you have a look at the real world, infant mortality was about 25% in late 19th century Germany - statistically, not all of those 25% should have low attributes if you see it in D&D terms. Today it varies from ca. 180 of 1000 (Angola) to about 2 of 1000 (Monaco) - the US is at about 6, Germany at 4 (2010 estimates)).

    But even the rules do not support this: If you take the monster entries for NPCs, nothing indicates either below or above average stats of these NPCs - statistically speaking, at least some of the bandits would have stats either above or below average, but the rules don´t reflect this at all. So, I think its safe to assume that the die rolling part only applies to special characters - the PCs and special NPCs. Average characters are generally assumed to have average stats. I would come to the conclusion that the stat generation is not meant to represent each and every person in the game world, but rather only the special cases mentioned above. Another example is a background generator found in the City of Greyhawk box IIRC: it states that 20% of the characters are orphaned and have no idea about their background. But it states explicitly that this is only true for PCs, and not meant to indicate that 20% of the population are orphaned and have no knowledge of their family - it is meant to show that orphans are often forced to take up a life of adventuring. So, judging the game world from the character generation method is like judging the population of our world from hollywood actors as a measurement - it is not representative.

    Stefan


    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    My Wisdom is pretty low at times, will someone please cull me out of the herd. I can read and write but I have a motivation of 3 so I really plan on just being a burden to society.

    Hey - your stat block shows a 20 WIS!! You're not a burden to society.

    Carnivorous hobbits now ...

    The Exchange

    Turin the Mad wrote:
    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    My Wisdom is pretty low at times, will someone please cull me out of the herd. I can read and write but I have a motivation of 3 so I really plan on just being a burden to society.

    Hey - your stat block shows a 20 WIS!! You're not a burden to society.

    Carnivorous hobbits now ...

    More likely to happen amongst humans...they dont have minimum stats.

    Liberty's Edge

    yellowdingo wrote:
    Minimum Intelligence (9): So an elf child is disposed of for being unable to learn reading and writing. This means the Elves require you to have the ability to preserve their written culture.

    I think your looking at this the wrong way. An Elf of less than 9 INT is never born to start with. Genetically (or magically) elves of less than 9 INT just don't come into being. As for the human 'classes', humans with less than those minimums don't become class A or B. WIS 7 person turns up to Cleric school and promptly fails the entrance exam. No one need be killed at birth.

    S.

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