One of my players has died, and wants to come back as a Paladin of Gorum.
I actually have no issue with this, as I think the LG requirement in silly. As long a you are always trying to uphold your God's desires, you can be a paladin.
Therefore, I plan on changing nothing of the paladin except. Alignment to CG. And spell list to chaos stuff instead of law stuff, and vice versa as needed. And Aura of Justice to be Aura of Freedom (wording change only)
Any other suggestions?
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"I actually have no issue with this, as I think the LG requirement in silly. As long a you are always trying to uphold your God's desires, you can be a paladin."-- Krongar
Well its more of a philosophical argument, isn't it? If your god's desires are the destruction of creation, ala Rovagug, then I personally don't see a holy warrior devoted to that desire as being a paladin. Sure he might be the incarnation of his god's will, but thats probably best personified by a different class (perhaps a chaotic neutral inquisitor or cleric).
Paladins, by definition, have a strict morale code that reflects the society they are from. Hence the lawful requirement. Sure, as the DM you could waive the lawful requirement and make a chaotic good paladin of Gorum, but is that character truly playing a paladin anymore? Would he gain the same powers as a lawful paladin? Since a chaotic character follows his own morale code as opposed to that of society, how would he be viewed by the locals? The established church?
Being lawful is one of the defining characteristics of the paladins class. A paladin is SUPPOSED to be the shining example to the people, he's the one that has to make the hard decisions, the ones that may put him at odds with the majority of humanity that might want to act on their own desires. Your supposed to be the guy who protects the criminal from a lynching; a chaotic paladin would probably be the first one there with a rope! Its the difference between why Superman doesn't just kill Lex Luthor, and why Han Solo shoots Greedo under the table (i'm ignoring special edition). You take away that level of morality, and you've lost what the paladin is.
Of course its your game, so do whatever you like. My personal opinion is that a chaotic good holy warrior is not a paladin, he is something else. Don't get me wrong, I think the CG holy warrior concept is really cool, I just wouldn't call it a paladin, and I'd encourage my character to try a different class (or aim him toward the pile of 3rd edition WoTC books I have with CG holy warrior type prestige classes in them)
Just my two cents
Duane Choquette
We choose to do these things "not because they are easy, but because they are hard" -JFK
Greetings, fellow traveller.
Any other suggestions?
Don't!
My take on the issue:
Reading the "birth legend" of Gorum and what he stands for I don't see this deity fitting the paladin's code.
The paladin is not only upholding his deity's "desires" - he is the epitome of righteousness, an example to everyone adhering to law, sound ethics, morale and belief in the greater good of humankind.
In my games, paladins are restricted to Torag, naturally Iomedae and Aroden - I even have problems imagining a paladin of Erastil. Although, I would allow a paladin of Abadar, I think.
Why not simply let him take a cleric of Gorum?
On the other hand: if you have fun - go for it. Maybe there is more stuff on that in the APG or you should aim for 3.5 material.
Ruyan.
Well, if we're talking RAW, there's nothing to prevent this. Though Paladins often offer their services to a deity, that's not where they draw their powers from. Their strength comes from their conviction and their devotion to the ideals that a paladin seeks to uphold - they aren't bound to the "one-step" alignment that clerics are. A paladin who focuses his efforts on noble warfare and glory in combat could easily worship Gorrum.
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Well, if we're talking RAW, there's nothing to prevent this. Though Paladins often offer their services to a deity, that's not where they draw their powers from. Their strength comes from their conviction and their devotion to the ideals that a paladin seeks to uphold - they aren't bound to the "one-step" alignment that clerics are. A paladin who focuses his efforts on noble warfare and glory in combat could easily worship Gorrum.
Two asides: although the Pathfinder rules are subtle about it, the Paladin write up does consisntently mention "your diety" in discussions about where the paladin's supernatural powers come from.
And several senior Paizo design-team members have mentioned that they certainly require the same one-step restriction for their paladins in their campaigns. So, that's the way the rules were intended.
But you're right: there's nothing in the core rulebook that would stymie a paladin worshipping, and drawing his powers from, Urgathoa. It's just sort of odd.
One of my players has died, and wants to come back as a Paladin of Gorum.
I actually have no issue with this, as I think the LG requirement in silly. As long a you are always trying to uphold your God's desires, you can be a paladin.
Are you familiar with the D&D 3.5 "Paladins of Freedom, Slaughter, and Tyranny"?
You are not wanting a Paladin, you are wanting a Cavalier :)
Are you familiar with the D&D 3.5 "Paladins of Freedom, Slaughter, and Tyranny"?
The Paladin of Freedom, from UA is what I was thinking about allowing him to do. However, I think some of the other posters have a point that Gorum's overall philosophy is one that would require him to be thinking Anti-Paladin from the APG.
For that matter, does someone know if there is a link to a conversion to PFRPG for the Holy Warrior that was in the Campaign Setting, that would allow my player to make a Holy Warrior cleric of Gorum?
I'd disagree with that take on Gorrum. To me, he seems savage but not cruel. I tend to portray him as a god who exists for battle, and nothing else. The form of combat that his followers utilize do not matter to him, so long as they fight. I see him as exulting in his triumphing over a worthy opponent, though being largely unconcerned with decorum, dogma, or process. The battlefield is Gorrum's temple, and all who bear arms there are welcome in it.
I'd disagree with that take on Gorrum. To me, he seems savage but not cruel. I tend to portray him as a god who exists for battle, and nothing else. The form of combat that his followers utilize do not matter to him, so long as they fight. I see him as exulting in his triumphing over a worthy opponent, though being largely unconcerned with decorum, dogma, or process. The battlefield is Gorrum's temple, and all who bear arms there are welcome in it.
Now see, that is the view on Gorum that I initially had...
But Can that be made into a PFRPG version of a Paladin of Freedom?
Is the CG variant really necessary? As has been said, desite a strong tradition, there's nothing in RAW that enforces the one-step alignment rule for paladins. Gorum himself is chaotic because let's face it, a battlefield is a pretty hectic place. But it's also for that very reason that many seasoned veterans and career soldiers prefer to approach it with a highly disciplines (lawful) mind.
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I would say to get a good grip on just what kind of god Gorum is you should look here or pick your self up a copy of this, a pdf atleast.
As has been said, desite a strong tradition, there's nothing in RAW that enforces the one-step alignment rule for paladins.
There's no rule for this because there shouldn't NEED to be a rule.
Paladins MUST be lawful good.
In order to worship a deity, you need to follow that deity's teachings and philosophies and do things that would make that deity proud.
If you don't worship a lawful good deity, you are increasingly doing things to impress your deity that are at odds with being a paladin.
Once an axis of your alignment drifts more than one step away (law to chaos or good to evil), maintaining a paladin's code and following a deity's philosophy and teachings become pretty much impossible to maintain for long. And without long-term maintenance, that faith simply cannot hold the order together.
To be devout, you need to adhere closely to your deity's alignment. To be a paladin, you need to be lawful good. That pretty much sums it up, as far as I can tell.
On Golarion, the following deities in particular are established in game canon as having paladin orders: Erastil, Iomedae, Torage, Sarenrae, Abadar. I suspect that both Shelyn and Irori have a few paladins worshiping them as well, but they don't have as many as the other five. There are no paladins serving any of the other deities.
That being said it's your game do what you feel is right. If you want Gorum to have paladins, or if you just want to ignore the alignment requirment all together, go for it. As long as it's fun for you and your players.