Stuff I mostly agree with.
Maintaining the generalisation that male gamers are basement dwelling misogynists with poor personal hygiene is not doing the hobby any favours.
I won’t deny within any population there are individuals and groups that are jerks. The world being the way it is with its massive diversity of opinion and beliefs you are odds on to encounter people you are going to dislike intensely. My advice is to point out what is upsetting upfront and if it cant be fixed move on and find a better experience and don’t tie yourself down dwelling on negative encounters.On the whole though most gamers male and female are average everyday people looking to have fun and are welcoming to anybody that wants to play.
Comparisons are irrelevant if everybody is having a good time.
What is more interesting to is regional rather than gender differences in gaming
Good advice, especially this:
2) When someone does something unacceptable, TELL THEM about it. See above.
I want to add that everything Ad Astra said goes for men and women both, as soon as anything makes you uncomfortable in the game just stop right there and say, "Hey, that isn't cool" or some variation of that. Be upfront about problems you have and you'd be surprised how many people don't even realize they are doing anything wrong until it is pointed out. Think emperor's new clothes here, if everyone just grins and bears it and then leaves without saying anything than the person doing something uncomfortable never realizes they are the problem. However, if you stop down the game when the problem happens and say, in a polite but firm way, that what is going on isn't acceptable, than it is out there in the open and can be dealt with. If at that point the person doesn't stop whatever uncomfortable thing they are doing it is outside your control and you should feel no obligation to continue trying to fix the situation, but if you leave without even trying to solve the problem it will never get fixed.
Sorry for going off on this tangent but between examples I've seen on the last straw thread and a billion(or thereabouts) other examples of similar threads on the internet and similar problems in real life it seems that people have a hard time speaking up and being direct, preferring to avoid any conflict when sometimes you need to face the situation head on. Also, from what I've seen(though personal experience is worth nothing when it comes to useful data) gamers as a whole aren't more or less socially adept than any segment of the population, especially considering that "gamers" is becoming more and more of a widespread term that is hard to pin down to a specific demographic. It has nothing to do with this argument but the same type of arguments you see here over RPG editions or overpowered classes pops up in gun forums when it comes to things like 9mm vs .45 ACP or Revolver vs Autoloader and sports discussions when it comes to things like Jordan vs Kobe or Emmitt vs Barry. Having diverse interests has helped me see that people are the all pretty much the same and gamers are no exception.
Cos, y'know, women bring it on themselves. Amirite?
If only there were a sarcasm emoticon.
The two gender stereotypes out there are:
"Guys are socially awkward mouth breathing dorks who bathe once a month whether they think they need it or not, and who will hit on any girl who picks up dice because, hey, she's at a _D&D_ game. She /must/ be desperate!"
"Girls don't bother to read any of the rules, because the game's all stupid anyway, and they're not really there to play. They're there to be attention magnets or to keep tabs on the SO. And when they throw a snit, the gaming group is going to dissolve."
The difference is that if you bring up the first stereotype, everyone says "Hear, hear. I'm terribly sorry about the shite my gender has committed on yours." When you bring up the second stereotype, you get told "That Doesn't Happen And You're A Sexist Pig For Saying That".
Personally, I'd like to see both stereotypes buried in the dustbin of old Avalanche Press D&D Painted Porno covers, set on fire, and used as a beacon of warning for future generations.
On the other hand, I have a lot of cat curled up around my left arm and purring loudly enough that it's difficult to type, so...rather than rant, I'll pet the cat.
Many things on the internet would be pleasanter if petting the cat were prioritized appropriately. :)
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to leave those easily dismissible opinions out of it and instead focused on the facts. Like it or not, people that don't like math aren't going to enjoy D&D very much.
I hate math. I’m bad at it, always have been. I struggle with simple sums, second-guess myself when it comes to multiplication, and never completely wrapped my head around long division. I bring a calculator to the game table to add up damage dice and work out buffs, so as to avoid slowing down the game or the shame of being caught counting on my fingers.
I love D&D, have since I started playing it twenty years ago. I’m quite certain I am not the lone exception that proves your rule.
The two gender stereotypes out there are:
"Guys are socially awkward mouth breathing dorks who bathe once a month whether they think they need it or not, and who will hit on any girl who picks up dice because, hey, she's at a _D&D_ game. She /must/ be desperate!"
"Girls don't bother to read any of the rules, because the game's all stupid anyway, and they're not really there to play. They're there to be attention magnets or to keep tabs on the SO. And when they throw a snit, the gaming group is going to dissolve."
The difference is that if you bring up the first stereotype, everyone says "Hear, hear. I'm terribly sorry about the s*&~e my gender has committed on yours." When you bring up the second stereotype, you get told "That Doesn't Happen And You're A Sexist Pig For Saying That".
Personally, I'd like to see both stereotypes buried in the dustbin of old Avalanche Press D&D Painted Porno covers, set on fire, and used as a beacon of warning for future generations.
On the other hand, I have a lot of cat curled up around my left arm and purring loudly enough that it's difficult to type, so...rather than rant, I'll pet the cat.
Many things on the internet would be pleasanter if petting the cat were prioritized appropriately. :)
But..but..I loved those covers...*sniff*
Midway College, by any chance?
I went to a college that used to be an all girls school, before going co-ed relatively recently. The ratio of females to males was around 70/30 at the time I enrolled.
Nope. Goucher.
Ah, this topic again.
The fundamental problem here is assuming that because the guy-centric gamer group made the girl uncomfortable, and she stopped coming, that everything that is wrong with the situation comes from the guys.
If a guy does something at a game table that you find offensive, TELL HIM. Yeah, I know. Confrontation. Arguing. Telling someone they're wrong. Everything you've been told Not To Do since the age of about 6.
I agree that one should speak up when one is offended. However, it's been my experience in such situations that telling a guy in a predominantly male group that he's being offensive usually results in the "Geez! It was just a joke! Don't you have a sense of humor? Lighten up!" reaction from not only the guy who was being an offensive jerk, but the rest of the table.
Personally, I reject the notion that it should be a woman's responsibility to educate men in what should be basic human decency. Gaming is what I do for fun-- not to teach socially clueless jerks how to behave appropriately. If a guy can't get past the fact that I have different reproductive bits and treat me like a human being, then it's his responsibility to fix that about himself, not mine.
edited to fix grammar
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I agree with Lindisty, I have said stuff before. the vast majority of the time, it makes the situation worse or I get the response she mentions. If it is a pickup game or a con, it's honestly not worth my time and effort to deal with them. There is plenty of other games and groups for me to go play with.
AdAstraGames at what point did anyone in this thread say such women gamers you ranted about don't exist? Cause I don't remember it. I know they exist and personally can't stand them anymore than the guys with issues.
If you want a game to remain guys only, that's cool...then don't invite women to the game.
That goes without saying.
I wish Atlantis would surface again already. We really need a big island where we can put certain people, like the guys you have described.
....and then resink it?
Greg
Hm..... can we put it on a lift or something? Lift it up, fill it with undesirables, dunk for a couple of days or so, and voilà - more space for the next batch!
But I was thinking more along the lines of selling tickets to the island to men with guns or stuff like that ;-)
My experience with girls and gaming has been relative to the games in question.
In white-wolf games they tend to gravitate to the same positive and negative stereotypes as male gamers. Why this is, I leave to you to speculate.
In DnD type games; women I have encountered have been in only two varieties. This may offend.
The second type is the typical "signifigant other" gamer, which is common. I don't see alot of girls interested in typically "swords and sorcery" type games. Though in one sad case, I saw a girl go from this type to the former I had encountered.
HERE IS A PC SENTENCE SAYING I'M NOT A MISOGYNIST I'M JUST RELAYING MY EXPERIENCES.
-Idle
I agree that one should speak up when one is offended. However, it's been my experience in such situations that telling a guy in a predominantly male group that he's being offensive usually results in the "Geez! It was just a joke! Don't you have a sense of humor? Lighten up!" reaction from not only the guy who was being an offensive jerk, but the rest of the table.Ah, this topic again.
The fundamental problem here is assuming that because the guy-centric gamer group made the girl uncomfortable, and she stopped coming, that everything that is wrong with the situation comes from the guys.
If a guy does something at a game table that you find offensive, TELL HIM. Yeah, I know. Confrontation. Arguing. Telling someone they're wrong. Everything you've been told Not To Do since the age of about 6.
Welcome to primate pack behavior. No, really. You have just confronted a group when you thought you were confronting an individual. So, the group rallies 'round. Even if they despise the guy who's being an asshat, he's their asshat and a part of their tribe.
So, you say "Hi, I understand that you guys have your ins and outs. I find that one obnoxious. Now, we can argue about finer points, which diverts from playing the game. I'm not saying jokes are a bad idea...but let's set some boundaries here. If you wouldn't tell the joke to your kid sister on prom night, don't tell it to me."
"Your choice boils down to having those jokes, or having me play at the table. I'd prefer to play here - it's a fun game. I can find others."
And they (and you) get a choice:
Their choices are:
Continue behavior
Change behavior
Your choices are:
Stay
Leave
On the 2x2 Pascal's Wager of "Continue/Change" "Stay/Leave", the best choice is "Change/Stay". The second best choice is "Continue/Leave". Unfortunately, the most commonly taken choice seems to be "Continue/Stay" up until it becomes unbearable, usually because the woman involved will NOT take the effort to confront the issue.
Personally, I reject the notion that it should be a woman's responsibility to educate men in what should be basic human decency. Gaming is what I do for fun-- not to teach socially clueless jerks how to behave appropriately. If a guy can't get past the fact that I have different reproductive bits and treat me like a human being, then it's his responsibility to fix that about himself, not mine.
I didn't say it was your obligation to offer remedial socialization for walking psychological trauma victims. I did say it was your obligation to call them on it - and on that, we agree.
I chose walking psychological trauma victims as a term deliberately. There's lots of horrible things society does to girls between the ages of 10 to 16. There are similarly toxic things we do to boys in the same age range, and my contention is that while they're not as widespread, they're generally much more persistent in their effects...and the social outlet for a subset of these walking trauma victims is D&D. This is where they go to not be picked on, and to not have to constantly be on their guard about what they say.
I write games for a living. I interact with my customers. A *LOT* of my customers are borderline Aspergers. I've seen corroboration that indicates that D&D attracts a similar crowd. (More than likely, my products attract some of the more extreme Asperger cases out of the same common gamer pool.)
To Aspies, social interactions with someone outside their circle of friends are the equivalent of sequencing ten three digit numbers, finding which ones are prime, summing the rest and dividing by the sum of the prime numbers. All in their head.
Every time someone changes their facial expression, one of the numbers has changed, might have become prime, and they have to re-check everything. Meanwhile, they do this, don't notice that they're sending out an "I'm not paying attention" social cue while they refactor, cause the facial expression to change again, and, well, the process rapidly devolves from there.
For a most women, reading social networking is as effortless as breathing. I suspect that for a significant chunk of the guys who play D&D, it's closer to the "sum and divide" mental overhead.
I agree with Lindisty, I have said stuff before. the vast majority of the time, it makes the situation worse or I get the response she mentions. If it is a pickup game or a con, it's honestly not worth my time and effort to deal with them. There is plenty of other games and groups for me to go play with.
See above - you're working from an incomplete information set. And the part I highlighted in bold face is important.
If there are other gaming groups to go with, no, it's not with your time and effort to deal with the broken people. If that isn't an option, your choice is to either help them overcome being broken (and have a game group), or pick another hobby.
Without confronting them (and being aware that you're confronting a group), you aren't going to get them to change...and even fairly minor changes need to be nudged into place with clear, direct communications.
AdAstraGames at what point did anyone in this thread say such women gamers you ranted about don't exist? Cause I don't remember it. I know they exist and personally can't stand them anymore than the guys with issues.
On this thread, none - save by omission.
All of the bad examples, until I participated, are men behaving badly. It is, by and large, socially acceptable for women to assume that any predominantly male gaming group she meets will be full of men behaving badly until they prove otherwise...but men working from the reciprocal prejudice (assuming that any girl who joins their D&D group is either The Girlfriend or The Attention Magnet) are sexist.
I object to both prejudices. The double standard is particularly odious, particularly since the prejudice towards the men is about outwards symptoms of inner trauma.
Much the same way you can argue that the choice of positive role models can be used as an instrument of sexism or racism, the same can be said about the choice of negative examples.
Like it or not, people that don't like math aren't going to enjoy D&D very much.
I'm sticking with my cultural argument, because I don't like math all that much, and I like D&D just fine. :-)
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Usually when something awful or shocking happens, I freeze. I just try to get through whatever the situation is. After I'm out of the situation, then I start the self-analysis.
I've tried to break this pattern, but the first time a bad situation happens, that is still my response. After I've spent some time analyzing it and asking for advice and self checks to make sure I"m not misinterpreting something or didn't do something to cause the situation, then I can set up an "if...then..." sort of self command to say "If this happens, then I respond with X".
So I generally won't speak up the first time something bad happens.
After it happens again I've had time to prepare a response such as the ability to speak up about it, or if self analysis reveals that I don't believe it was my problem and I"m unwilling for it to happen again, then I remove myself from the situation entirely (the "It's not my job to fix it, I'll find something more tenable" approach).
Welcome to primate pack behavior. No, really. You have just confronted a group when you thought you were confronting an individual. So, the group rallies 'round. Even if they despise the guy who's being an asshat, he's their asshat and a part of their tribe.
Is the condescending tone of this post intentional? I'm guessing not, but it does come across that way to me. That said, I'm going to try to proceed with this conversation in a spirit of equality.
I understand why 'pack behavior' happens. That doesn't make it acceptable to me in situations like that. Nor does understanding why it happens make it right. Nor does any of that mean it's my responsibility to fix it when it happens.
On the 2x2 Pascal's Wager of "Continue/Change" "Stay/Leave", the best choice is "Change/Stay". The second best choice is "Continue/Leave". Unfortunately, the most commonly taken choice seems to be "Continue/Stay" up until it becomes unbearable, usually because the woman involved will NOT take the effort to confront the issue.
I think statements and attitudes like that contribute to the problem, frankly. Insisting that it's usually women who are at fault for not calling out such behavior as offensive completely ignores the fact that men are behaving inappropriately to begin with. I'm not a social cop. I'm not about to waste time at the gaming table explaining to people why they shouldn't make rape jokes or play all their female NPCs as prostitutes. I have better things to do with my time, so my reaction is almost always going to be to leave. Whether or not it's worth it to explain why I'm leaving depends on the situation.
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For a most women, reading social networking is as effortless as breathing. I suspect that for a significant chunk of the guys who play D&D, it's closer to the "sum and divide" mental overhead.
But this is apples to oranges. Sure, most women handle social networking very well. But so do most men.
If certain types of men fall into the "D&D gamer" stereotype, so do certain types of women.
Are we talking about opening more markets? Attracting different people to gaming? Or just getting women into the current market and D&D subculture?
I think a lot of this is changing already. As more women play and GM, more will join - because they're less likely to be alone facing a group of "other".
If the topic is seeking to find ways to make gaming more welcoming to women, I think it's useful for women to explain that it's helpful if the guys at the table don't make the women feel that "that guy"'s behavior will always be accepted and even defended by the other men. I think it's useful for women to learn to speak up. I think it's important to understand what the goal of the new player is in joining the game or group. If the goal is to play, that's great. If the goal is to keep an eye on a significant other, the other players will have to turn the new member into someone who plays the game for itself, or the new player is going to be more a disruption than a benefit to the game.
I'm sticking with my cultural argument, because I don't like math all that much, and I like D&D just fine. :-)
I like math, but it doesn't like me.
-The Gneech
But I have to ask. If somebody DOESN'T teach him, explain to him that what he's doing is wrong, then he's never going to learn.
The guys at the table who were all "lighten up" were a#!!@#%s, however, I've seen just as many guys (and been one) who were legitimately clueless, and had nothing but the best of intentions for the women I was around. However, certain things I did, and said were sending messages other than the ones I intended, and as a result I had trouble with women.
...
So please, please, be open and direct and bold with men that bother you. If they brush it aside with 'just a joke' then you can just as easily walk away. But if instead they say something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I was joking and didn't realize that would upset you" then you've just helped some poor sap see what he was doing to himself and those around him.
Do I come across as someone who doesn't speak up when I'm offended? ;) Believe me, I do. And if I call someone on offensive behavior, and their reaction is "I'm sorry. I didn't realize it would come across that way. What can I do to avoid it in future?" I'm happy to engage in the conversation and explain further, but I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've gotten that reaction as opposed to the more usual, "Lighten up!" reaction.
And I maintain that it's NOT MY JOB to instill appropriate social behavior in my acquaintances-- male or female. That's something their parents should have done.
If you want a game to remain guys only, that's cool...then don't invite women to the game.
That goes without saying.
I wish Atlantis would surface again already. We really need a big island where we can put certain people, like the guys you have described.
....and then resink it?
Greg
Hm..... can we put it on a lift or something? Lift it up, fill it with undesirables, dunk for a couple of days or so, and voilà - more space for the next batch!
But I was thinking more along the lines of selling tickets to the island to men with guns or stuff like that ;-)
Sweeeet! you chaotic types are always thinking outside the box...thank goodness I am safe inside it.
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@AdAstraGames - I have spoken up many times, but like Lindisty the vast majority of the time I got similar reactions as her and if I pushed then things nine out of ten times got worse. It is not worth my time or effort in a con or pickup group that is going to be playing for only a few hours to fight with them about it. In a regular home group you plan to play in long term that's a different story. But even then if you bring things up and make it very clear what the problem is and why, if they don't change. Then talking about it more isn't going to change their minds. Some people just believe what they want and or act how they want and don't care. When you run into those people the best thing to do is to avoid them.
As far as the all the bad examples being about men... well the topic of this thread was about what Gary said. Which basically was why more women don't game. The topic wasn't about bad gamers in general. That's why it was never brought up, it isn't really what the topic is about. If you want to start a new topic about bad gamers in general that's fine and i will post in it and happily share my stories with bad female gamers as well.
@Kyrt-ryder - I am glad if you was causing problems you changed, i have meet guys like you. You tell them whats wrong and explain why, more often than not they are shocked. Then they change how they behave and that's great.
In my experience most guys are fine and not a problem, just most guys that are a problem. They are aware or just don't care of about the problems they cause. Of the guys which is a small fraction of the guys I have gamed with that are problems, only a small fraction of them turned out to be like kyrt-ryder, i wish all of them was.
Sweeeet! you chaotic types are always thinking outside the box...thank goodness I am safe inside it.
Well, that box does not float...
Given the number of people that say they are playing D&D when what they actually describe is more like freeform, no it doesn't....Like it or not, people that don't like math aren't going to enjoy D&D very much.I hate math... I love D&D, have since I started playing it twenty years ago. I’m quite certain I am not the lone exception that proves your rule.
OK then, make that one more.
I hate most math too. But before I was 10 years old: 1) I got my first computer, and 2) I got my copy of the 2nd ed AD&D Player's Guide and Forgotten Realms Adventures. I'd say both were responsible for improving my math abilities. I still hate most math. But I love Pathfinder (and D&D and Shadowrun). And no, I don't freeform, either as a player or a GM.
Well, that box does not float...Sweeeet! you chaotic types are always thinking outside the box...thank goodness I am safe inside it.
Now, now, KaeYoss, we don't know the box doesn't float. We should test that empirically.
And then blow the box up.
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Given the number of people that say they are playing D&D when what they actually describe is more like freeform, no it doesn't.to leave those easily dismissible opinions out of it and instead focused on the facts. Like it or not, people that don't like math aren't going to enjoy D&D very much.I hate math. I’m bad at it, always have been. I struggle with simple sums, second-guess myself when it comes to multiplication, and never completely wrapped my head around long division. I bring a calculator to the game table to add up damage dice and work out buffs, so as to avoid slowing down the game or the shame of being caught counting on my fingers.
I love D&D, have since I started playing it twenty years ago. I’m quite certain I am not the lone exception that proves your rule.
We play pretty much to the RAW, we frequently reference rulebooks during game, we use character sheets and dice, we roll dice whenever the rules call for it, we often use battle-mats and minis in combat, we tend to run games that have a good mix of roleplay and combat, but are definitely not combat light and are often highly tactical. Many of the people I’ve played with over the years I would classify as optimizers to some degree or another.
Seems like we are playing D&D (or Pathfinder), not freeform.
I don’t think liking math (or whether women ‘tend’ to like math less than men do) has anything much at all to do with liking D&D.
Ugh... that just reminded me of one time the girl in our group had me look at her smartphone without telling me what it was, and it was a fully exposed Inuyasha X Sesshoumaru yaoi picture. I think I'm going to go throw up now...Actually, if most gamers were to come to a game in my all-girl group, they would probably leave needing brain bleach, with their ears on fire, and firmly convinced that all my friends are sadists. I avoid this by staying away from their electronics (which are usually displaying fanfictions or dubious artwork), I'm used to the cussing, and... I already know they're insane.
Hey, I'm used to this by now. Especially in the all-girl game group. Not so much yaoi, but girl-type salty humor and girl-type h gets thrown around semi-liberally.
But I have to ask. If somebody DOESN'T teach him, explain to him that what he's doing is wrong, then he's never going to learn.
The guys at the table who were all "lighten up" were a#!!@#%s, however, I've seen just as many guys (and been one) who were legitimately clueless, and had nothing but the best of intentions for the women I was around. However, certain things I did, and said were sending messages other than the ones I intended, and as a result I had trouble with women.
...
So please, please, be open and direct and bold with men that bother you. If they brush it aside with 'just a joke' then you can just as easily walk away. But if instead they say something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I was joking and didn't realize that would upset you" then you've just helped some poor sap see what he was doing to himself and those around him.
Do I come across as someone who doesn't speak up when I'm offended? ;) Believe me, I do. And if I call someone on offensive behavior, and their reaction is "I'm sorry. I didn't realize it would come across that way. What can I do to avoid it in future?" I'm happy to engage in the conversation and explain further, but I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've gotten that reaction as opposed to the more usual, "Lighten up!" reaction.
And I maintain that it's NOT MY JOB to instill appropriate social behavior in my acquaintances-- male or female. That's something their parents should have done.
Hnnh. An intriguing approach that some might deem hypocritical/defeatist, and others might refer to as incredibly practical/realistic. I'm sure there would be a sharp gender divide there too.
I lean more towards Kyrt's interpretation, but this could be because I'm a guy too, and as a guy we are more geared to "fix the problem" instead of avoiding it, as many girls are taught. Ad Astra brings up some damn good points on both sides of the spectrum(are girls taught/encouraged to be patient and solve problems primarily through non-verbal means, or are they simply taught/encouraged to shut up and let men handle everything, even if they know better? Hm.), which fascinates me(and a big +1 on aspergers awareness/sensitivity. One of my oldest female friends online is seriously aspergers, she is now married with several children and she is helping one of her daughters, who may be aspergers like her, deal). I have always wondered about the overall mental health of many of us in this hobby, partially because it's what I do for a living, and also because I've had a lot of experiences I've had with people who really and truly don't know how to act in a social situation. It fascinates, it intrigues, and I really want to know what I can do to help(if they need/want the help, that is). In short, fascinating stuff from a perennial topic.
Before jumping at me, or concluding that I'm being condescending - please read my original post on the last page.
I'm not condoning the poor behavior. I am, in fact, staunchly saying that the right answer is to confront said behavior. At that means acknowledging that it is not a one-on-one conflict, but it is likely a one-on-group conflict and planning and preparing appropriately.
And based on how the three of you responded, I don't think you have a prepared strategy for it. This isn't meant as condescension - it's me trying to give you a set of tools to use for the next time you encounter this.
1) If you're offended by something - DO NOT second guess yourself. Do the conflict now. Yes, the natural response is to shy away. It is even MORE thoroughly a natural response when you've experienced enough bad runs of this. There is NO objective measure for what is and is not offensive, it's subjective and if you're offended, you're COMPLETELY in your rights to bring it up.
2) Confront the individual. Address the group. Do not address the individual and confront the group. I'm going to say that the guy who's offended you is named "Ken" - that happens to be my name, and we'll just assume it was me who stepped in it.
The right way:
"Hey, Ken. Making the joke about how halfing whores are the best because they're like children with tits and just the right height to put your beer stein on while they suck you? I don't care if you think it's in character. It's in very bad taste." (Shift eye contact to one other person in the group.) "This kind of behavior makes me not want to come to the game with you guys. I'd rather keep playing here, it's a good session. Can we tone this down?"
Note that this goes in two steps. The first is addressing the source of the problem. Ideally, before someone laughs at the joke. The second is to make it clear that you hold the group responsible for the actions of the poorly behaving member, and that you will leave if it continues.
The wrong way:
"I cannot believe that you guys thought Ken's joke was funny! My god, it's offensive on every level. Ken, that's awful."
Note that what you're doing here is confronting the group, and addressing Ken. You are also not presenting them with the risk-reward for continuing or stopping the behavior. They now know that they've offended you, but you've indicted the group, and given them a reason to coalesce around Ken. Nor do they REALLY have a sense of what will happen if they don't change their behaviors. This is the result likeliest to trigger "Hey, Ken was making a joke, lighten up."
The even worse way:
(wait until Ken leaves the room), "Hey, Derek, what Ken said was out of line and really offensive. Could you talk to him about it?" (There's a chance that without you repeating the details, Derek won't recall exactly what was said.)
Note that what this does is put the burden of describing what was offensive onto a third party. Who will then have to do the confrontation on your behalf, without really having felt the offense. He'll have to speculate on your motives when Ken asks questions - and without doing this IN FRONT OF THE GROUP, the social dynamic of applying group pressure is not present to correct Ken's behavior.
The group-to-individual social dynamic tends to be hierarchical. You need to confront the individual and invoke the group to curb his behavior, and you need to make the consequences of failing to curb the behavior clear to the group so that they'll curb it.
I bring this up because I have, at several points in my life, seen women make this kind of mistake in professional contexts, not just at the gaming table. Men GET THIS beaten into them at an early age. People who join competitive team sports live and breathe it. Women don't seem to get this kind of socialization.
It's a strong case of you having one set of social expectations ("I don't have to wipe his ass in public because his parents should've taught him to be a sensible human being") and the man having a completely different set of expectations: ("If she'd been offended, she'd've said something, convinced the group that I was wrong, and I'd've changed it.")
(If I'm not careful, I'm going to end up writing "Men are from Cheliax, Women are from Taldor..." - the parody of the Mars and Venus books for gamers.)
So, again - this isn't trying to lay blame. It's not trying to condone the bad behavior. It's not even saying it's your job to socialize these people.
I'm trying to give you a better tool set for the next time you encounter this problem.
FYI - the Army produces an absolutely EXCELLENT pamphlet on introductory leadership skills. If you're interested, I'll see if I can dig it up online; it's germane here because it gives a very good description of individual versus group and individual into group dynamics.
Before jumping at me, or concluding that I'm being condescending - please read my original post on the last page.
In what way did I jump at you? I asked if the condescending tone of your post was intentional. I didn't think it was, but I thought it worth mentioning that you were coming across that way to me. What you do with that information is up to you.
I'm not condoning the poor behavior. I am, in fact, staunchly saying that the right answer is to confront said behavior.
And I, at least, have been saying that there may not be a *right* way to deal with such behavior, and that not everyone in the world is going to be comfortable with your solution. And even if every woman were comfortable following your formula, I still think you're placing the responsibility for *fixing* poor behavior on the person who is offended, rather than on the offender. I simply don't agree with that premise.
And based on how the three of you responded, I don't think you have a prepared strategy for it. This isn't meant as condescension - it's me trying to give you a set of tools to use for the next time you encounter this.
I'm sorry. I think I missed the part of this thread where anyone asked for your advice on how to handle such situations. And this is where I get the impression that you're being condescending. Several of us are saying that we DO speak up, and yet you persist in trying to tell us how we're doing it wrong.
You've never met me. You've never seen how I deal with such situations, and your insistence on trying to 'teach' me how to do it 'right' is somewhat insulting. I can't speak for the other women in the thread, but I, at least, would prefer it if you didn't automatically assume that I'm unable or unwilling to confront offensive behavior when it happens, or that I don't have adequate tools to do so. Until you see evidence otherwise, I'd appreciate if you'd assume that I'm a fully competent adult who doesn't need remedial instruction in social interaction.
Perhaps the way to deal with the 'uncomfortable' situation so many people have mentioned is to call it, but not confront it.
For example:
Male Y: {makes derogatory comment}
Female X: "That's offensive!"
Other Males: {rally to defend Male Y from the Outsider}
Could be better handled:
Male Y: {makes derogatory comment}
Female X: "It's a good job there are no ladies present." [waits for Penny to drop]
Or even better:
Male Y: {makes derogatory comment}
Female X: "I'm sorry, I know I'm an outsider here, and I'm sure you didn't intend offence, but I feel you should know that could sound pretty offensive. It's the kind of thing that turns girls off you, you know, and I don't you guys well enough yet to be comfortable with it."
Of course if you really need to ram the point home:
Male Y: {makes derogatory comment}
Female X: "You know I've heard that guys that say that stuff about women do it because they are lacking in size" [wiggles little finger] "maybe you can settle the question?"
Other Males: {laughter}
Perhaps the way to deal with the 'uncomfortable' situation so many people have mentioned is to call it, but not confront it.
...
Could be better handled:Male Y: {makes derogatory comment}
Female X: "It's a good job there are no ladies present." [waits for Penny to drop]
And yet we've been told that subtle hints don't work. Personally, I wouldn't do this, because it's implying that my sensibilities are 'too delicate' to handle whatever was said. More often than not, that isn't the case.
Or even better:
Male Y: {makes derogatory comment}
Female X: "I'm sorry, I know I'm an outsider here, and I'm sure you didn't intend offence, but I feel you should know that could sound pretty offensive. It's the kind of thing that turns girls off you, you know, and I don't you guys well enough yet to be comfortable with it."
Why should the woman apologize? She didn't do anything wrong. I also wouldn't do this, because it implies that the behavior is acceptable and that the fault is with me for finding it uncomfortable.
Of course if you really need to ram the point home:
Male Y: {makes derogatory comment}
Female X: "You know I've heard that guys that say that stuff about women do it because they are lacking in size" [wiggles little finger] "maybe you can settle the question?"
Other Males: {laughter}
I also wouldn't do this, because it invites response in kind.
What I probably would do:
Male Y: {makes derogatory comment}
Me: I find that offensive because {insert reason}. Please don't say things like that in my presence.
More often than not, I get the "You need to lighten up!" response. But as far as I can tell, I'm expressing myself clearly and offering a solution as to how to avoid offending me in future. Yet it seldom works, in spite of all the protestations here that if we just clearly and directly let guys know when they're being jerks, they'll stop.
Hnnh. An intriguing approach that some might deem hypocritical/defeatist, and others might refer to as incredibly practical/realistic. I'm sure there would be a sharp gender divide there too.
Yeah, well, I'm old. I've wasted enough time in my life trying to be conciliatory toward people who just weren't going to get the hint no matter what. These days, I give it one or two tries and then move on. The world is full of wonderful and interesting people-- I don't feel a need to spend inordinate amounts of time and energy on jerks anymore. :)
I love reading this thread, the stories of social douchebags really give me a vicarious view of what happens in some places.
So glad that this sort of stuff doesn't go down at our table... the person would be ejected REALLY quick!
We have wives, we have daughters... we have little patience for dirty cheeto men and their grotty little fantasies and odious social habits.
But geez I love reading about them, just to be offended!
Well, that box does not float...Sweeeet! you chaotic types are always thinking outside the box...thank goodness I am safe inside it.
Now, now, KaeYoss, we don't know the box doesn't float. We should test that empirically.
And then blow the box up.
O.o
How about we just say it doesn't float?
And not blow the box with Greg in it up.
That sounds like a happy plan.
I am quite happy being one piece at peace, if this is a problem... I can take my box elsewhere. Honest.
Greg
Hnnh. An intriguing approach that some might deem hypocritical/defeatist, and others might refer to as incredibly practical/realistic. I'm sure there would be a sharp gender divide there too.Yeah, well, I'm old. I've wasted enough time in my life trying to be conciliatory toward people who just weren't going to get the hint no matter what. These days, I give it one or two tries and then move on. The world is full of wonderful and interesting people-- I don't feel a need to spend inordinate amounts of time and energy on jerks anymore. :)
I'm old too, but there are some lessons I am very slow to learn. Wasting time and energy on jerks is one lesson that doesn't seem to have taken on me yet. I am envious of this capacity or yours. I am the guy that will be miserable three times longer than anyone else, before I finally say ..toodles. Bad game groups.. bad jobs.. bad relationships... Once again, envious.
Greg
PS
we have little patience for dirty cheeto men and their grotty little fantasies and odious social habits.
I love this line.
I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but wanted to offer a tactical suggestion about ways to deal with inappropriate behavior from others.
Ideally, this reaction passes within a few seconds. The logical parts of the mind kick in and the individual begins to deal with the situation logically.
Unfortunately, when someone is confronted in front of his friends, he's more likely to feel attacked than he would without the audience. At some level, his social status and network of friends are threatened. Because of this, he's more likely to react defensively, denying that he did anything wrong or otherwise failing to accept responsibility for his role in the situation.
This phenomenon is why leaders are encouraged to "praise in public, but criticize in private". People's behavior can be more effectively modified if you can get them to "lower their defenses".
If someone in your group behaves in ways that you would like to see changed, you're much better off discussing it with them one-on-one than confronting them in front of their peers. If you don't know the person well, they may be more comfortable if you ask a fair-minded friend to join in and help "referee" the discussion.
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Ok I will take Sir Wulf approach, this is the method I have tried to use.
I would say just in my personal experience about 1 in 10 times it works and the guy seems honestly unaware his actions was a problem. The rest of them time they either don't care or knew and don't change.
So I decided a long time ago it wasn't worth it for one shot games at con's or stores. Of course i stopped doing them as well. In more long term groups it still rarely works in my experience. Unless the guy that is causing the problem is newer to the group than I am or I am gaming with some friends.
Let me be clear most guys are not the problem, in most groups one guy is the problem and the others who are his friends don't want to take sides against him. So tend to just stay out of it. Most of the time I found those guys in one shot games, pickup games etc. My guess is cause they can't find a regular group or only small groups always needing new players is why they are more common in those situations. In established groups it is a lot more rare but does still happen.
And yet we've been told that subtle hints don't work.
Oh, subtlety works on all men. You just have to use a whole lot of it with some. Be really obvious about it. ;)
What I probably would do:
Male Y: {makes derogatory comment}
Me: I find that offensive because {insert reason}. Please don't say things like that in my presence.More often than not, I get the "You need to lighten up!" response. But as far as I can tell, I'm expressing myself clearly and offering a solution as to how to avoid offending me in future. Yet it seldom works, in spite of all the protestations here that if we just clearly and directly let guys know when they're being jerks, they'll stop.
Yeah, some people are just real tossers about that sort of thing. They insult you, and if you take exception, they make it your fault for finding it offensive.
Some jerks really do think that they get to decide for others what they find offensive, and then thinking it's perfectly fine to ridicule you when you are offended.
Well, that box does not float...Sweeeet! you chaotic types are always thinking outside the box...thank goodness I am safe inside it.
Now, now, KaeYoss, we don't know the box doesn't float. We should test that empirically.
And then blow the box up.
O.o
How about we just say it doesn't float?
And not blow the box with Greg in it up.
That sounds like a happy plan.
I am quite happy being one piece at peace, if this is a problem... I can take my box elsewhere. Honest.
Greg
I don't know. It has a lot less meyhem and senseless violence in it, your plan. But what the heck, it's the Man Jesus's Birthday, and since I happen to like the guy, I'll lay off the stuff he doesn't like for a while. It's only polite.
I don't know. It has a lot less meyhem and senseless violence in it, your plan. But what the heck, it's the Man Jesus's Birthday, and since I happen to like the guy, I'll lay off the stuff he doesn't like for a while. It's only polite.Well, that box does not float...Sweeeet! you chaotic types are always thinking outside the box...thank goodness I am safe inside it.
Now, now, KaeYoss, we don't know the box doesn't float. We should test that empirically.
And then blow the box up.
O.o
How about we just say it doesn't float?
And not blow the box with Greg in it up.
That sounds like a happy plan.
I am quite happy being one piece at peace, if this is a problem... I can take my box elsewhere. Honest.
Greg
COOL BEANS!...Now, if you could only get Ambrosia Slaad on board with this, I could continue happily living in my box.
Greg
I like to consider myself a nice happy person that comes across as non-offensive. Where I have worked, I believe if there were social functions, I always was invited. Throughout my life, I have had friends of both genders ( and with some that started as one...and switched to another ). However as socially enlightend I feel I am, I can recall at least three times, I have offended a female enough that they took great steps never to be in the same place as me. In each case, I was devestated when I found out. Only in one, do I give myself some slack. Not that I was right, I was drunk and my judgement was really poor.
First situation, High school. Girl in my history class, for whatever reason, I would tell her she had nice shoes. EVERY DAY. She always had on what seemed to be comfortable shoes. And the first few times, I think I actually meant it..but later on it became some sort of odd weird ritual. A few weeks later, she stopped showing up to school. About a year later, was talking to a woman at a christmas party, discovered that the she was the mother of the same girl. I asked her why her daughter transfered. Turned out it was because she felt people at my school were snobbish and people even made fun of her clothes. :(
Second, worked with a woman that for some reason I enjoyed saying her name. Way too much. Can't remember her name now, but let's just call her Belinda. Hi, Belinda. How are you today, Belinda? Ready to get to work today, Belinda? She quit her third day, told my friends I creeped her out by using her name so much. :(
Third one, no details...just a drunk guy thinking he was suave and instead was obnoxious. She left a concert she had been looking forward to all year. That one was obvious to me the next sober day.
So, I guess I would say, IF any of you game with a jerk called Greg, give him the benefit of doubt and pass him a note or take aside and let him know of his inappropriate behavior. Because I would rather know up front and modify. :)
Oh, and that applies to men or women. Cuz I am certain I have offended men, too.
Greg
I'm old too, but there are some lessons I am very slow to learn. Wasting time and energy on jerks is one lesson that doesn't seem to have taken on me yet. I am envious of this capacity or yours. I am the guy that will be miserable three times longer than anyone else, before I finally say ..toodles. Bad game groups.. bad jobs.. bad relationships... Once again, envious.
It's never too late to learn, y'know. :) And it's not like it's something I was born with. It took a lot of years and more than one abusive relationship to reach the point where I recognize the 'jerkitude' signs and walk away early. (Not that I recommend abusive relationships as the tool by which one should learn such lessons, but that's what did it for me.)
Also, regarding your spoiler. I have to admit that I fit the 'female gamer' stereotype in the respect that I'm bad at math. Though I attribute my math deficiency largely to a couple of early teachers who insisted that girls didn't need to learn math. I had a blast with geometry when I got to it (with a different teacher), and I often wonder if I'd feel differently about other math if I'd had better teachers.