Just wondering here after reading about the Hellknights in AP's 27 & 28 (great books BTW) and the "Asmodean Demon Hunter" trait in the APG; in Golarion, are there any Hellknights and/or servants of Asmodeus fighting against the demons in the Mendevian Crusade?
I personally would find something amusing in the idea of the Iomedaen paladins and clerics having to fight alongside servants of Asmodeus to save Golarion from the hordes of the Abyss. And why shouldn't the Asmodeans assist? How can their lord rule the worldis it's been turned into a demonic hellhole?
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I think it would be good -- or, at the very least, Lawful.
Things like this have been done before -- in Dungeon there was an adventure by Frank Brunner where a Gelugon (I think) and a Planetar (I think) had to spend eternity together guarding something -- and, of course, the PCs got involved.
Other times, too -- it's not a novel idea.
And Mendev is the perfect place.
I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be there, though I have it in my games that they're not, but that's because I'm running it that the Church of Asmodeus is happy to let the Worldwound keep the church of Iomedae occupied and exhausted whilst it prepares to drive a new age of Chelaxian expansionism.
The Hellknights are not Asmodean per se, and many of them are Lawful Good and even Paladins :) Though many are Lawful Neutral or Even Lawful Evil... It would be funny to see Hellknights of various flavors trying to get along, and Iomadaen Paladins, and perhaps Paladins of Saranrae as well as Clerics and Female Monks of Asmodeus trying to co exist there ;)
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I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be there, though I have it in my games that they're not, but that's because I'm running it that the Church of Asmodeus is happy to let the Worldwound keep the church of Iomedae occupied and exhausted whilst it prepares to drive a new age of Chelaxian expansionism.
That's pretty much the way I see it. Canonically, there's little mention of Hellknights (or Asmodeans) in Mendev (or Lastwall), so it seems that Asmodeus is perfectly willing to let the Iomedans and Sarenraens, etc. deal with that, while he consolidates hold on Cheliax, and attempts to officially add Korvosa, Sargava, Molthune, etc. to the mix.
The official church / order policy would probably prohibit any shenanigans to oppose or hinder the efforts of the Mendevians or Lastwall defenders, since allowing the Worldwound demons (or Belkzen orcs) to run riot over the world is hardly in Asmodeus' interests, but they don't seem to be bending over backwards to help, either.
Because of the warding stones, the Worldwound situation appears to be at a slow simmer. If it went 'hot,' I suspect that Hellknights, and even some units of Kuthonites from Nidal, might show up to try and stop the Abyss from sweeping over and absorbing Golarion. (Granted, I suspect that the leadership of Nidal will just escape into the Plane of Shadow, taking their capital city with them, instead of standing and fighting to save Golarion, but they'd happily throw 90% of their population at the demons to buy time for that ritual to be complete...)
I suspect that more local powers like Baba Yaga and the Black Sovereign of Numeria would likely have sent winter witches, ice trolls, mechanical men, skymetal-tainted sorcerers, etc. before Cheliax gets involved.
The Hellknights are not Asmodean per se, and many of them are Lawful Good and even Paladins :) Though many are Lawful Neutral or Even Lawful Evil... It would be funny to see Hellknights of various flavors trying to get along, and Iomadaen Paladins, and perhaps Paladins of Saranrae as well as Clerics and Female Monks of Asmodeus trying to co exist there ;)
This is also important to note as well: The Hellknights are not officially affiliated with the church of Asmodeus, though I tend to remove paladins from their ranks. I don't think emulating the legions of hell, even if you profess to be above their influence, is compatible with staying Lawful Good for very long.
And really, the Hellknight assertion of emulating hell, while being above its influence always struck me as delusional on the part of the various orders, and truth be told, that sort of thinking strikes me as EXACTLY the way Devils usually manipulate mortals into their service.
"No, really, you can use my power. You are, afterall, a man of great moral strength. You are the Master, and I the humble, deferring servant. You know what is best, I merely wish to advise you. Remember, what you're doing is for the greater good. Don't listen to those so called Pious men, what do they truly know of the sacrifices required by great causes? Not half so much as you..."
And really, the Hellknight assertion of emulating hell, while being above its influence always struck me as delusional on the part of the various orders, and truth be told, that sort of thinking strikes me as EXACTLY the way Devils usually manipulate mortals into their service.
"No, really, you can use my power. You are, afterall, a man of great moral strength. You are the Master, and I the humble, deferring servant. You know what is best, I merely wish to advise you. Remember, what you're doing is for the greater good. Don't listen to those so called Pious men, what do they truly know of the sacrifices required by great causes? Not half so much as you..."
Like what Sauron did with Numenor and Ar-Pharazon in the Akallabeth? Yeah, I can see that as a problem with the Hellknights.
Though I felt the reason the Good and Neutral gods got involved with the order was by reasoning, "Well, they're not going away any time soon; and that have done SOME good; and it would be very helpful to at least have some trusted worshippers keeping an eye on them..."
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Allowing the Worldwound demons (or Belkzen orcs) to run riot over the world is hardly in Asmodeus' interests
.... Although I did design a campaign a few years ago where the Church of Asmodeus helped unleash a wave of CE "rioters" "over the world" and cause so much fear, paranoia and hatred of CE that when his Church, disguised as something innocuous, came to save the day -- lots and lots of people would flock to his banner -- for generations.
My Players thought the campaign was against a Demon Lord BBEG or "mastermind," of course and that really helped when the Church of Asmodeus swooped in to "save the day." 'Twas a proud moment for me when the Players learned it was a High Priest of Asmodeus who was the "string-puller."
And really, the Hellknight assertion of emulating hell, while being above its influence always struck me as delusional on the part of the various orders, and truth be told, that sort of thinking strikes me as EXACTLY the way Devils usually manipulate mortals into their service.
"No, really, you can use my power. You are, afterall, a man of great moral strength. You are the Master, and I the humble, deferring servant. You know what is best, I merely wish to advise you. Remember, what you're doing is for the greater good. Don't listen to those so called Pious men, what do they truly know of the sacrifices required by great causes? Not half so much as you..."
Like what Sauron did with Numenor and Ar-Pharazon in the Akallabeth? Yeah, I can see that as a problem with the Hellknights.
Though I felt the reason the Good and Neutral gods got involved with the order was by reasoning, "Well, they're not going away any time soon; and that have done SOME good; and it would be very helpful to at least have some trusted worshippers keeping an eye on them..."
Oh it's entirely reasonable, and not a bad route to take them, pending the moral themes you want to run with in your campaigns. The Hellknights are by their gray area nature, rather open to interpretation. I'm just not going that way in my games because I personally don't like the idea thematically that mortals can consort with dark powers without being tainted themselves. I don't like the idea of compromise between Good and Evil being possible without Good becoming darkened, so my games tend to run with the core underpinning that anyone asserting to use evil powers without ultimately falling prey to its influence is deluding themselves. Again, this is totally a me thing, and not at all intended to be representative of what I think should or should not be canon. ^_^
It's for the same reason that I tend to dislike the thought of Paladins "bending the rules" because for me, the whole point of a paladin is to show the world through their behavior that things can be accomplished by doing The Right Thing, The Right Way, for The Right Reasons.
Allowing the Worldwound demons (or Belkzen orcs) to run riot over the world is hardly in Asmodeus' interests.... Although I did design a campaign a few years ago where the Church of Asmodeus helped unleash a wave of CE "rioters" "over the world" and cause so much fear, paranoia and hatred of CE that when his Church, disguised as something innocuous, came to save the day -- lots and lots of people would flock to his banner -- for generations.
My Players thought the campaign was against a Demon Lord BBEG or "mastermind," of course and that really helped when the Church of Asmodeus swooped in to "save the day." 'Twas a proud moment for me when the Players learned it was a High Priest of Asmodeus who was the "string-puller."
I love this sort of plot.
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Unleashing chaos, fear and uncertainty to make the people clamor for your brutal and draconian protection? Oh yes, that's always a winner. Throw those rights away in the name of security! Turn in your parents if they speak against the new order! Surely the devils will follow the orders of their Chel summoners, and aren't as nasty as those demons, and it's not an excess to call up devils to fight demons, because the enemy's use of demons justify that sort of retaliation!
But unleashing chaos is like riding a tiger. It's never as easy to put back in the box as you thought it would be, and being the tyrannical despot in charge of the broken remnants of a world you've destroyed is hardly the ideal end-game.
I would like to think that Asmodeus is smarter than this, although he likely has plenty of worshippers who wouldn't think this far, and be willing to sabotage Iomedan efforts at the Worldwound, thinking to weaken two of his rivals at the same time, and unclear on exactly why Asmodeus would rather have Iomedae as a rival than Lamashtu, since Iomedae is, at least, restricted to opposing him within the rules...
Unleashing chaos, fear and uncertainty to make the people clamor for your brutal and draconian protection? Oh yes, that's always a winner. Throw those rights away in the name of security! Turn in your parents if they speak against the new order! Surely the devils will follow the orders of their Chel summoners, and aren't as nasty as those demons, and it's not an excess to call up devils to fight demons, because the enemy's use of demons justify that sort of retaliation!
But unleashing chaos is like riding a tiger. It's never as easy to put back in the box as you thought it would be, and being the tyrannical despot in charge of the broken remnants of a world you've destroyed is hardly the ideal end-game.
I would like to think that Asmodeus is smarter than this, although he likely has plenty of worshippers who wouldn't think this far, and be willing to sabotage Iomedan efforts at the Worldwound, thinking to weaken two of his rivals at the same time, and unclear on exactly why Asmodeus would rather have Iomedae as a rival than Lamashtu, since Iomedae is, at least, restricted to opposing him within the rules...
Not to mention, Iomedae can be predicted at leas somewhat. The hordes of the Abyss by their very nature defy predictable behavior.
Creative Director
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The Mendevian crusade is mostly under the control of the church of Iomedae, who does NOT get on well at all with the church of Asmodeus. Further, the Hellknights themselves aren't all that greatly interested in things going on outside of Cheliax or their neighbors/thrall states (like Isger). There might be some Hellknights involved in the Mendevian crusade, but not many, and they don't have an official presence there, and most Hellknight Orders would actually consider teaming up with Iomedaean crusaders as sketchy at best... ESPECIALLY when there's so much law needing to be enforced back home.
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The Mendevian crusade is mostly under the control of the church of Iomedae, who does NOT get on well at all with the church of Asmodeus. Further, the Hellknights themselves aren't all that greatly interested in things going on outside of Cheliax or their neighbors/thrall states (like Isger). There might be some Hellknights involved in the Mendevian crusade, but not many, and they don't have an official presence there, and most Hellknight Orders would actually consider teaming up with Iomedaean crusaders as sketchy at best... ESPECIALLY when there's so much law needing to be enforced back home.
"When those Iomedaen fools finally prove too weak to hold back the tides of the Abyss, we'll have Cheliax shored up and ready to resist any potential thread that could strike us. The demons will scour away the weak and disordered, and we will move into the void left behind and finish off what's left of the demon hordes."
You know, I'm starting to picture some of the nations of the Inner Sea as viewing the Worldwound kind of like the Seven Kingdoms views the lands beyond the Wall in the SOIAF, not worrying about the potential thread because they don't have to deal with it directly.
Hm, now I'm thinking about low templars getting sent to Mendev in exchange for a pardon for issues back home . . . ;)
The Mendevian crusade is mostly under the control of the church of Iomedae, who does NOT get on well at all with the church of Asmodeus. Further, the Hellknights themselves aren't all that greatly interested in things going on outside of Cheliax or their neighbors/thrall states (like Isger). There might be some Hellknights involved in the Mendevian crusade, but not many, and they don't have an official presence there, and most Hellknight Orders would actually consider teaming up with Iomedaean crusaders as sketchy at best... ESPECIALLY when there's so much law needing to be enforced back home."When those Iomedaen fools finally prove too weak to hold back the tides of the Abyss, we'll have Cheliax shored up and ready to resist any potential thread that could strike us. The demons will scour away the weak and disordered, and we will move into the void left behind and finish off what's left of the demon hordes."
You know, I'm starting to picture some of the nations of the Inner Sea as viewing the Worldwound kind of like the Seven Kingdoms views the lands beyond the Wall in the SOIAF, not worrying about the potential thread because they don't have to deal with it directly.
Hm, now I'm thinking about low templars getting sent to Mendev in exchange for a pardon for issues back home . . . ;)
The Crusader's Oath always struck me as reminiscent of the Oath of the Night's Watch.
Now we just need the Pathfinder Society or something to build a huge wall of ice that surrounds the World Wound and man it with a handful of criminals from Taldor.
In a way we already have that (the criminals I mean) due to references of the fact that the Crusade is drawing a lot of nasty folk who want to use it as an excuse to plunder and despoil.