Swarm Rule Questions

[KilroySummoner]

My summoner wants to summon a fire elemental (with the Burn ability) to dispatch a swarm:

1) Can it be summoned on the same square as the swarm (a few inches above the carpet of swarm creatures) for insta-burn?

2) Can the attack, which causes burn, affect the swarm?

3) If the fire elemental is summoned 5' from the swarm, can he move into the square (or just above it vertically) to inflict an extra burn? If so, does it take place immediately or at a later time?

4) Some of these questions have to do with the vertical displacement of a summoned creature, can anyone clarify on how minimally far above a mob you can summon the creature?

[mrofmist]

Well seeing as the swarm doesn't "technically" take up space, since it's considered to be crawling on whatever is in it's space. I wouldn't see any problem with summoning a fire elemental into the squares.

Now as for the rest, mechanics wise, I doubt there is any RAW for you.

But logic wise, if you pour a lot of insects, rats, etc. on the ground beside of a really large bonfire, they die, just from the heat alone and usually rather fast. So one would assume that it would be the same case for the elemental. Not RAW, just realism.

[Starglim]

You must summon a creature to "an open location on a surface capable of supporting it" and it can't appear inside another creature.

The swarm takes burn damage and might catch on fire (!) when it causes swarm damage to the elemental, since the swarm (or each individual creature) is attacking the elemental with its natural weapon. The elemental's attacks cause burn damage if and when they affect the swarm. edit: Moving adjacent to the swarm or into its space doesn't cause burn damage.

[Howie23]

KilroySummoner wrote:

My summoner wants to summon a fire elemental (with the Burn ability) to dispatch a swarm:

1) Can it be summoned on the same square as the swarm (a few inches above the carpet of swarm creatures) for insta-burn?

2) Can the attack, which causes burn, affect the swarm?

3) If the fire elemental is summoned 5' from the swarm, can he move into the square (or just above it vertically) to inflict an extra burn? If so, does it take place immediately or at a later time?

4) Some of these questions have to do with the vertical displacement of a summoned creature, can anyone clarify on how minimally far above a mob you can summon the creature?

1) There is a statement in the conjuration magic section that a conjured creature cannot be summoned floating in open space; it must be summoned onto a surface capable of supporting it. So, by RAW, the fire elemental must be summoned at ground level, not floating above the swarm.

While a swarm can occupy the same space as another creature, the summoned creature cannot be summoned to occupy the same space as a creature or object. I would rule that the summoning must be into an adjacent square, but could see someone deciding otherwise.

2) If the swarm is tiny sized, it can be attacked by the elemental's slam, which can also then do burn damage. If the swarm is fine or diminutive, it is unaffected by weapon attacks, and thus is unaffected by the burn damage (which requires a successful slam attack).

Edit: However, when the swarm attacks the elemental, burn should then be in effect due to the natural attack. Whether catching on fire is in play may be a matter of GM interpretation as to the interaction of swarms with effects that target single creatures.

3) Why would there be extra burn? A swarm takes extra damage from area effects. Burn is not an area effect. An elemental must successfully attack to burn something, edit or be attacked using a natural weapon, which the swarm sill do. Merely being nearby, however, is insufficient.

4) The question is moot; you can't summon a creature into mid-air. In general, you can summon a creature into an empty square. If there were a circumstance where you could summon above for some reason, it would be in the square above. Anything else due to terrain oddities is a matter of GM discretion.