This "playtest" thread is meant to be a number crunching experiment for you to play around with. I am going to try and make as powerful a magus as I can so we can see how it looks. Once done, I will make some basic observations and leave the rest up to you.
Shisio Dafoe (20th-level human abjurant champion) - Download PDF character sheet
Shisio was made via 25-pt. buy and has level appropriate gear, much of which he crafted himself.
The below numbers assume all attacks hit. Crits are NOT accounted for, nor is damage coming from reactive abilities such as fire shield.
Round by Round Tactics (melee)
Prior to Combat) Research enemy for strengths and weaknesses. Cast greater invisibility (or fire shield [cold] for those that can see invisible), heroism, greater magic weapon x3, magic circle against evil, overland flight, shield, and unseen servant (in order of longest duration to shortest). Cast intensified shocking grasp into scythe via spell storing. Use wall of ice or similar spell to separate chosen targets from their allies, making the enemy more manageable.
Estimated Damage: None.
Round 1) Charge into melee, smacking target with a spellstriked freezing sphere and power attacking scythe (full). Release intensified shocking grasp into target if attack lands (none). Cast quickened cone of cold on as many enemies as possible (swift).
Estimated Damage: 170 (single enemy); 52.5 (secondary enemies)
Round 2) Activate boots of speed (free); make 4 attacks with power attacking scythe (full); Cast a quickened cone of cold via wand wielder (swift action); 5-ft. step to new location (free) and use unseen servant to distract enemy from your true location.
Estimated Damage: 190.5 (single); 52.5 (secondaries)
Round 3) If enemy is still alive, enhance scythe with flaming, icy burst, keen, and shocking abilities (swift); cast intensified maximized cone of cold via wand wielder (joint action); full attack/spell combat (full) with 4 more attacks; 5-ft. step to new location (free) and use unseen servant to distract enemy from your true location.
Estimated Damage: 300 (single); 120 (secondaries)
Round 4) If enemy is proving difficult to hit, use arcane accuracy and/or true strike to make attacks more effective. If they just have lots of hit points, continue full attacks with enhanced spiked gauntlet along with intensified maximized cone of cold followed by quickened cone of cold (or other spell if cold doesn't seem to work). Repeat full attack in following rounds along with choice attack/buff spells.
Estimated Damage: 251 (single); 172.5 (secondaries)
Round 5+) If enemy appears more annoyed than hurt at this point, consider teleporting to a safe area and reconsider strategy.
Round by Round Tactics (ranged)
Prior to combat) as above. Initiate combat from long range with intensified fireballs.
Estimated Damage: None.
Round 1) Activate boots of speed (free); enhance bow with flaming, icy burst, and shocking burst abilities (swift); make 4 attacks with deadly aimed bow (full). If facing swarms of enemies, use intensified fireball wand instead.
Estimated Damage: 140 (bow, single); 52.5 (fireball, secondaries)
Round 2) Repeat step 1 each round until enemy is within charge range. If hitting proves to be difficult, use arcane accuracy/true strike as necessary. If enemy closes to within charge range, revert to melee tactics above.
Estimated Damage: Higher than round 2 due to increased hit percentage if using bow.
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Note that despite holding a two-handed scythe, I still meet all the Spell Combat criteria by having either a free hand or a spell trigger item in that hand, and by having a light weapon (spiked gauntlet) in my other hand at all times. In the rounds that I am not casting cone of cold from my scythe/staff, I am relying on my spiked gauntlet in order to continue using spell combat.
This is just the tip of the iceberg as well. This guy has loads of other options from which to choose from if need be.
I'm no good with math, so if I can get some volunteer number crunchers to account for attack miss chances and crits against various CR 20 creatures, I would greatly appreciate it.
Attacks are not impressive? You are underestimating the magus' abilities my friend!
He starts off with a +30 to hit with his scythe. As a free action he can activate his boots of speed for +31 while hasted. As a swift action he can raise that to +39 with arcane accuracy. Then he can cast greater invisibility, 5-foot steps into a flanking position with an ally, and makes a full attack with spell combat to get his attack rolls up to +43 to hit against most sighted opponents who have now lost their Dexterity modifier to AC against the attacks. All those little modifiers stack.
And that's in the opening round. Wait until he throws up other buffs in following rounds to make himself (and his party mates) even nastier.
A 20th-level fighter by comparison might have the following:
20 base attack bonus
10 strength score of 30
05 magical weapon enhancement
04 weapon training
02 greater weapon focus
02 flanking
01 haste from boots of speed
44 to hit total
The difference? The magus above isn't nearly as optimized as this fighter. He could pick up a nonmagical shortsword off an enemy and get the above attack modifiers. The fighter that loses his big magical sword is screwed in comparison.
The only advantage I see in the fighter is that his DPR is likely to be a bit higher and he can swing all day with his modifiers whereas the magus will eventually burn out.
As to the magus' AC, with haste and shield, he can pump it to 41, which is fairly respectable even at 20th-level (CR 20 creatures have less than a 50% chance of hitting). Should he end up in a bad situation, he can, as an immediate action, pump it to 45 with his arcane shield magus arcana until the end of his next turn.
Yeah...I'm thinking the magus is pretty balanced class now. He holds his own right along with wizards and fighters at high levels.
Intensify Spell?
I'm sorry, but all I can find is that it is an Epic feat from 3.5 SRD.
If so, your character does not meet its prerequisites:
[...]Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells[...]Regards,
Ruemere
Excuse me, I meant intensified spell. It's in the APG and reads as follows:
Intensified Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells can go beyond several normal limitations.
Benefit: An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels. You must actually have sufficient caster levels to surpass the maximum in order to benefit from this feat. No other variables of the spell are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat.
Level Increase: +1 (an intensified spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.)
This "playtest" thread is meant to be a number crunching experiment for you to play around with. I am going to try and make as powerful a magus as I can so we can see how it looks. Once done, I will make some basic observations and leave the rest up to you.
Shisio Dafoe (20th-level human abjurant champion) - Download PDF character sheet
Shisio was made via 25-pt. buy and has level appropriate gear, much of which he crafted himself.
The below numbers assume all attacks hit. Crits are NOT accounted for, nor is damage coming from reactive abilities such as fire shield.
Round by Round Tactics (melee)
Prior to Combat) Research enemy for strengths and weaknesses. Cast greater invisibility (or fire shield [cold] for those that can see invisible), heroism, greater magic weapon x3, magic circle against evil, overland flight, shield, and unseen servant (in order of longest duration to shortest). Cast intensified shocking grasp into scythe via spell storing. Use wall of ice or similar spell to separate chosen targets from their allies, making the enemy more manageable.Estimated Damage: None.
Round 1) Charge into melee, smacking target with a spellstriked freezing sphere and power attacking scythe (full). Release intensified shocking grasp into target if attack lands (none). Cast quickened cone of cold on as many enemies as possible (swift).
Estimated Damage: 170 (single enemy); 52.5 (secondary enemies)
Round 2) Activate boots of speed (free); make 4 attacks with power attacking scythe (full); Cast a quickened cone of cold via wand wielder (swift action); 5-ft. step to new location (free) and use unseen servant to distract enemy from your true location.
Estimated Damage: 190.5 (single); 52.5 (secondaries)
Round 3) If enemy is still alive, enhance scythe with flaming, icy burst, keen, and shocking abilities (swift); cast intensified maximized cone of cold via wand wielder (joint...
Is this guy within the WBL?
It might be better to round him out and drop some offense to increase his AC if possible. If you tag someone for a lot of damage, and don't kill them it may be his last fight assuming he was in an actual game.
RD the magus is restricted to one-handed weapons. Not that the scythe is the best weapon you could grab, but them be the rules. It is possible you have found a way around the intent, but that loophole will be closed before the final book.
Is this guy within the WBL?
Only if you allow magic item crafting with starting funds. If you don't, then he probably has 75% more gear than you would expect in your games.
It might be better to round him out and drop some offense to increase his AC if possible. If you tag someone for a lot of damage, and don't kill them it may be his last fight assuming he was in an actual game.
Really? His offense AND his defense are both very good as I've shown above.
My biggest concern (which I didn't realize until after posting) is that he has next to no ability to get past DR. I only recently learned that greater magic weapon doesn't let you get past material/alignment DR, which means he can't hurt the balors, pit fiends, and linnorms he is expected to face at his level.
If I move his gear around at all, it would be to give him true +5 weapons.
RD the magus is restricted to one-handed weapons. Not that the scythe is the best weapon you could grab, but them be the rules. It is possible you have found a way around the intent, but that loophole will be closed before the final book.
Switching him to a one handed weapon costs him, at most, 28 damage each round, still not bad at all I think.
The more I post possible exploits, the less I believe that they work. Hopefully, some good will come out of it and the magus will be exactly as it should be when it is finally released as a result.
Shisio Dafoe was formerly a 23rd-level character in a v3.5 game my friend ran (Heart of Hellfire Mountain, if you've heard of it). As such, I spent a lot of effort trying to shoehorn some of the old character into the build, such as using a scythe when it isn't really all that optimal.
Thank you for your honest, yet civil response. Some people don't realize my goal is to help the playtest (and the game as a whole) and get upset when I make such "I think this combo might just work" claims.
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My biggest concern (which I didn't realize until after posting) is that he has next to no ability to get past DR. I only recently learned that greater magic weapon doesn't let you get past material/alignment DR, which means he can't hurt the balors, pit fiends, and linnorms he is expected to face at his level.
Wait, what?
Reads furiously...
I would swear up and down that that particular sentence has never been there before.
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So there's a really good reason to find room for the Versatile Weapon spell.
Side note: This should really be a level 2 spell for Magi, don't you think? Bards get it at 2.
Depending on your level, you can use your Arcane Pool to bypass some DR. I think any table would let you not stack it on top of GMW if you chose.
It might also be fair to put Align Weapon on the Magus list. It fits with the martial theme.
Here is an updated version of the character that helps him get past some material/alignment DR. I switched out his ranks in Craft (sculpture) for Use Magic Device and gave him a few more wands he couldn't previously use.
Some of his other gear has changed as well. He now has every possible magic item slot filled with the exception of shields. Among other things, he is now the proud owner of a cloak of minor displacement, which should help some of his supposed AC woes.
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Really? His offense AND his defense are both very good as I've shown above.
I think the saves are good, but the AC is not good, not for a 20th level character anyway. If you are close enough to be hit, and doing enough damage to draw attention to yourself, then you need a higher AC.
The Magus:
AC 36, touch 20, flat-footed 31 (+11 armor, +5 deflection, +5 Dex, +5 natural)
hp 242 (20 HD)
Fort +23, Ref +17, Will +21 (reroll vs. mind-influencing effects); heroism, magic circle against evil
CMB 21
CMD 41
Concentration +28
A CR 20 NPC has no trouble hitting an AC of 36. The CMD is not hard to bypass, and a CMB of 21 won't have you escaping any grapples. The +28 to concentration also means that if you get grappled you might drop the spell. I did look for a freedom of movement affect on your chracter, but I did not see one. I really don't care for allowing people to bypass WBL, but that is not the argument here. If you are going to bypass it then there is no reason, IMHO, to be subject to grappling.
PS:I just caught the cloak of displacement. I would spend an extra 30000 and get the regular cloak. Either the monster will have true seeing or it won't. A 20% miss chance is not much better than having to roll a 5 or better on the dice to hit someone's AC. I am sure if you fight a boss at this level he will be able to bypass miss chance so the only thing left will be AC.
I think the saves are good, but the AC is not good, not for a 20th level character anyway. If you are close enough to be hit, and doing enough damage to draw attention to yourself, then you need a higher AC.
I disagree for the reason I stated above.
With haste and shield, he can pump it to 41, which is fairly respectable even at 20th-level. Should he end up in a bad situation, he can, as an immediate action, further pump it up to 45 with his arcane shield magus arcana until the end of his next turn (at which point most CR 20 creatures have less than a ~25% chance of hitting on any given attack).
You are correct in his having a big weakness against grappling though. Even so, whatever is grappling him won't last long unless it has grapple abilities (such as rake and constrict). He will just use his multitude of supernatural abilities to pump up his spiked gauntlet and stab away until the creature grappling him is dead.
Switch out the ring of greater energy resistance (electricity) and replace it with a ring of freedom of movement. Kills the weakness AND saves 6,000gp.
I think the saves are good, but the AC is not good, not for a 20th level character anyway. If you are close enough to be hit, and doing enough damage to draw attention to yourself, then you need a higher AC.
I disagree for the reason I stated above.
With haste and shield, he can pump it to 41, which is fairly respectable even at 20th-level. Should he end up in a bad situation, he can, as an immediate action, further pump it up to 45 with his arcane shield magus arcana until the end of his next turn (at which point most CR 20 creatures have less than a ~25% chance of hitting on any given attack).
You are correct in his having a big weakness against grappling though. Even so, whatever is grappling him won't last long unless it has grapple abilities (such as rake and constrict). He will just use his multitude of supernatural abilities to pump up his spiked gauntlet and stab away until the creature grappling him is dead.
Switch out the ring of greater energy resistance (electricity) and replace it with a ring of freedom of movement. Kills the weakness AND saves 6,000gp.
I did not see haste and shield active before combat began in your outline. Even so a 41 is easy to hit also. 45 is more respectable assuming you can a non-buffed CR'20 bad guy.
I am assuming you meant Spell Shield for the shield bonus. The creature may pin you. You can't fight back when pinned. I do think switching out the energy resistance for the freedom of movement is the better option. Even if you fail the save for an AoE you will survive most likely.
My biggest concern (which I didn't realize until after posting) is that he has next to no ability to get past DR. I only recently learned that greater magic weapon doesn't let you get past material/alignment DR, which means he can't hurt the balors, pit fiends, and linnorms he is expected to face at his level.
Doesn't the Magus ability to increase a weapon's magic bonus with Arcane Pool points nullify this concern?
After checking out the states, it seems that the point is moot.
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
The table right below the quoted paragraph shows it nicely. A Magus should have no trouble bypassing DR, especially the Magus you describe. The only types that might trip him up are the DR X/slashing, etc.
My biggest concern (which I didn't realize until after posting) is that he has next to no ability to get past DR. I only recently learned that greater magic weapon doesn't let you get past material/alignment DR, which means he can't hurt the balors, pit fiends, and linnorms he is expected to face at his level.Doesn't the Magus ability to increase a weapon's magic bonus with Arcane Pool points nullify this concern?
After checking out the states, it seems that the point is moot.
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.The table right below the quoted paragraph shows it nicely. A Magus should have no trouble bypassing DR, especially the Magus you describe. The only types that might trip him up are the DR X/slashing, etc.
Sure, if you actually use it for that. However, myself and others often use greater magic weapon to pump up the enhancement bonus, and then rely on Arcane Pool to add weapon abilities rather than enhancement bonuses.
Last I checked, greater magic weapon wasn't enough to bypass DR. If I am fighting a demon or devil or something with alignment DR, then I have to put my entire arcane pool +5 bonus into my weapon (overlapping and not stacking with my GMW spell) just to bypass DR.
I've essentially wasted both a spell and a class ability JUST to overcome the DR.
That kinda sucks.
I'm curious as to whether stacking arcane pool enhancements and the Greater Magic Weapon enhancement allows you to bypass DR with the entire enhancement bonus?
For example, say I'm 13th-level and cast greater magic weapon on a mundane weapon, ending up with a +3 weapon. I then use arcane pool to add an additional +2 enhancement, plus flaming and shock. I now have a +5 flaming frost weapon.
But does said +5 flaming frost weapon overcome alignment DR? Why or why not?
I'm curious as to whether stacking arcane pool enhancements and the Greater Magic Weapon enhancement allows you to bypass DR with the entire enhancement bonus?
For example, say I'm 13th-level and cast greater magic weapon on a mundane weapon, ending up with a +3 weapon. I then use arcane pool to add an additional +2 enhancement, plus flaming and shock. I now have a +5 flaming frost weapon.
But does said +5 flaming frost weapon overcome alignment DR? Why or why not?
I would say it would count as a +2 weapon for overcoming damage reduction, since magic weapon says the bonus it grants doesnt count, but doesnt discount the weapon entirely.
Sure, if you actually use it for that. However, myself and others often use greater magic weapon to pump up the enhancement bonus, and then rely on Arcane Pool to add weapon abilities rather than enhancement bonuses.
Last I checked, greater magic weapon wasn't enough to bypass DR. If I am fighting a demon or devil or something with alignment DR, then I have to put my entire arcane pool +5 bonus into my weapon (overlapping and not stacking with my GMW spell) just to bypass DR.
I've essentially wasted both a spell and a class ability JUST to overcome the DR.
That kinda sucks.
So, I'm probably misunderstanding... the character you drew up, it's equipment automatically assumes that you're using GMW and the Arcane Pool ability? Or is it actually a +5 weapon? A +5 blah blah blah counts as Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, Good, Evil, Lawful and Chaotic.
Why not just buy a +5 weapon and use your Arcane pool ability to add other properties to it?
But does said +5 flaming frost weapon overcome alignment DR? Why or why not?
See pg 562 of the Core Rulebook. As for how GMW works... eh, weirdness.
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So, I'm probably misunderstanding... the character you drew up, it's equipment automatically assumes that you're using GMW and the Arcane Pool ability? Or is it actually a +5 weapon? A +5 blah blah blah counts as Cold Iron, Silver, Adamantine, Good, Evil, Lawful and Chaotic.
His PC assumes GMW cast on a +1 weapon. This is a very common technique to up enhancement bonus but still have damage dealing extras on the weapon.
Why not just buy a +5 weapon and use your Arcane pool ability to add other properties to it?
Because that's really expensive. Not saying some people won't go that route, but a lot of people won't.
And Raving Dork, I don't consider it as much a waste as you seem to. The spell isn't wasted, it's just not being used for 1 minute out of a multi-hour duration. If you know you're going to fight a lot of things with DR in a session, you can just not prepare GMW that day.
Difficulty overcoming DR isn't a uncommon feature among melee classes. The Paladin and Inquisitor are the only ones who can regularly defeat DR through Class Abilities. Other casters using GMW might be able to Align their weapon but that only helps for 4 possibly DRs and not at all if the DR happens to be DR X/alignment and cold iron or what have you.