If a PC dies and is reincarnated from a human and is now a half-elf does he get the free Skill Focus feat that Half-Elves got at 1st level?
I can understand Elf Blood, Elf Immunities and Keen Senses, but the other 1st level "traits"?
Same kind of question for the other races. What is considered extraordinary abilities and the like, as per the spell?
-- david
Papa.DRB
Nope, you only get the physical traits, not the social traits. By the same token, you don't get elven weapon proficiencies if you reincarnate as an elf.
If it's something inherent to the physical form, they get it. If it's something learned, it's not given.
Some of the stuff is iffy, so you have to do judgement calls.
But on the up side, you do not lose stuff learned from the orgianl class.
So if you were an elf reincarnated as a human, you do not lose elven weapon training.
In your cast human to half-elf. You get to keep the human feat you gained at first level and +1 skill point per level for each level you were a human. After you become an half-elf, you would not gain any more.
Nope, you only get the physical traits, not the social traits. By the same token, you don't get elven weapon proficiencies if you reincarnate as an elf.
If it's something inherent to the physical form, they get it. If it's something learned, it's not given.
Some of the stuff is iffy, so you have to do judgement calls.
I don't see it as iffy, really. You are correct. The character gets the BODY of a half-elf, with all the physical features (low-light, elf blood, keen senses and immunities), but nothing a half-elf would have through their mind (skill focus, speaking elvish, or being multitalented). The character would determine a random "young adult" age for the half-elf body, and pick up the half-elf's lifespan, too.
I would say that this character would retain their +1 skill point per level, since that is a function of the human mind, rather than a physical trait. They still think like a human, and would retain that natural advantage.
In short, the character gets everything a half-elf is born with, and everything a human mind gets.
Nope, you only get the physical traits, not the social traits. By the same token, you don't get elven weapon proficiencies if you reincarnate as an elf.
If it's something inherent to the physical form, they get it. If it's something learned, it's not given.
Some of the stuff is iffy, so you have to do judgement calls.
Source? Also, where are the racial traits broken down by type? Which ones are social and which ones are racial?
It is really not hard to break any race down by social and racial.
Elf
Biology
+2 Dex, +2 Int,-2 Con
Medium sized
Normal speed
Low light vision
Elven Immunity
Keen senses
Culture
Elven magic
Weapon familiarly
Languages
____________________________________________________________________
Dwarf
Biology
+2Con,+2 Wis, -2 Cha
Medium size
Slow and Steady
Darkvision 60 feet.
Hardy
Stability
Culture
Defensive Training
Greed
Hatred
Stonecutting
Weapon familiarly
Languages
____________________________________________________________________
Gnome
Biology
+2 Con, +2 Cha -2 Str
Small
Slow speed
Low light vision
Keen sense
Culture
Defensive Training
Gnome Magic
Hated
Illusion Resistance
Obsessive
Weapon familiarly
Languages
____________________________________________________________________
Half elf
Biology
+2 One ability
Medium size
Normal Speed
Low-Light Vision
Elf Blood
Elven Immunities
Keen Senses
Culture
Languages
Adaptability{*]
Multitalented{*]
____________________________________________________________________
Half orc
Biology
Medium sized
Normal Speed
Darkvision 60 feet.
Orc Blood
Culture
Intimidating{*]
Orc Ferocity{*]
Weapon familiarly
Languages
____________________________________________________________________
Halfling
Biology
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, –2 Str
Small:
Slow Speed
Keen Senses
Sure-Footed
Culture
Fearless
Halfling Luck
Weapon familiarly
Languages
{* could be other but I do not think so}
It's not the core races than can be iffy, it's the non-core races you can reincarnate as. Drow for example, are spell like abilities social (everyone learns to cast them at will in school) or are they biological?
Earlier Post Note = Changed my mind, about earlier post. I Agree with "Benicio Del Espada", that you would keep the +1 skill point per level if human turn to half-elf was done.
............
And i see "Seekerofshadowlight" beat me to the punch. Although after looking at his, think mine is more accurate. :D . After all Int, Wis, Cha is not consider physical, and you do not gain them when Reincarnated.
...........
Physical is body and not mind related.
Social is anything learned.
Oh what the hay i got some time.
What i think is Physical vs Social.
Dwarf Physical
*) +2 Con,
*) Size
*) Slow and Steady
*) Darkvision
*) Hardy
*) Stability
Dwarf Social
*) +2 Wis, -2 Cha
*) Defensive Training
*) Greed
*) Hatred
*) Stonecunning
*) Weapon Familiarity
*) Languages
Elf Physical
*) +2 dex, -2 Con
*) Size
*) Speed
*) Low light vision
*) Elven Immunities
*) Keen Senses
Elf Social
*) +2 int
*) Elven Magic
*) Weapon Familiarity
*) Languages
Gnome Physical
*) +2 Con, -2 Str
*) Size
*) Speed
*) Low-Light vision
*) Gnome Magic (judgement call, but since it based on Charisma, will say physical (Innate ability like sorcerer). Also to balance out the stuff they lose, like illusion resistance.)
*) Keen Senses.
Gnome Social
*) +2 Cha
*) Defensive Training
*) Hatred
*) Illusion Resistance
*) Obsessive
*) Weapon Familiarity
*) Languages
Half-Elf Physical
*) +2 Dex ((This based on Reincarnated spell table))
*) Size
*) Speed
*) Low-Light vision
*) Elf-Blood
*) Elven Immunities
*) Keen Senses
Half-Elf Social
*) Adaptability
*) Multitalented
*) Languages
Half-Orc Physical
*) +2 Str ((This based on Reincarnated spell table)).
*) Size
*) Speed
*) Darkvision
*) Orc Blood
*) Orc Ferocity
Half-Orc Social
*) Intimidating
*) Weapon Familiarity
*) Languages
Halfing Physical
*) +2 Dex, -2 Str
*) Size
*) speed
*) Halfling Luck
*) Keen Senses
*) Sure-Footed
Halfing Social
*) +2 Cha
*) Fearless
*) Weapon Familiarity
*) Languages
Human Physical
*) +2 Con ((This based on Reincarnated spell table)).
*) Size
*) Speed
Human Social
*) Bonus Feat
*) Skilled
*) Languages
((Note: The immunity were a judgment call for some, and might be augured either way. In the cast of Elves i think it is physical, due to the way their body's work. On the other hand the Gnomes immunity to illusion was consider social, due to being brought up around illusion all the time. Like wise consider the halfling luck bonus physical, because you can not control luck.... but made their Fearless social, due to the way they were brought up and raised.))
It's not the core races than can be iffy, it's the non-core races you can reincarnate as. Drow for example, are spell like abilities social (everyone learns to cast them at will in school) or are they biological?
I would argue that spell-like abilities are learned. It would be something you could do without learning it in school, like walking and talking.
The description (p.221 PFRPG) says that "The user activates it mentally." If a person were reincarnated as a drow, they would not gain drow spell-like abilities, since they are unique to the drow mind.
It's not the core races than can be iffy, it's the non-core races you can reincarnate as. Drow for example, are spell like abilities social (everyone learns to cast them at will in school) or are they biological?
Drow Physical
*) +2 Dex, -2 Con*) Size
*) Speed
*) Darkvision
*) Drow Immunities
*) Keen Senses
*) Light Blindness
Drow Social
*) Spell resistance ((1st ed this was from magic items "cloaks", then underground magic aura "still cloaks" in 2nd ed, In 3.0 they just gained it Automatic when they got ride of the sunlight destroying cloaks that granted the Resistance... Power Creep at its best)).....if you want this, live 100 years underground...or get a Drow Elven Cloak.
*) Poison Use
*) Weapon Familiarity
*) Languages
Drow In Question
*) Spell-Like Ability.... Again this started out with only Females Priest having this ability in 1st ed Unearthed Arcane/Fiend folio, and the power creep continues. To be honest, as listed in book, could see it going either way. If you allow this as Physical, add in the Charisma restriction that Gnomes have...... otherwise might look at as social, years of study.
Note = Would not do Drow Nobles Character as reincarnated.
Earlier Post Note = Changed my mind, about earlier post. I Agree with "Benicio Del Espada", that you would keep the +1 skill point per level if human turn to half-elf was done.
............
And i see "Seekerofshadowlight" beat me to the punch. Although after looking at his, think mine is more accurate. :D . After all Int, Wis, Cha is not consider physical, and you do not gain them when Reincarnated.
Well min wasn't for reincarnation really, just a split over bio and soc is all.
I do see we agree on what is and is not a biological ability for the most part. I am on the fence with Orc Ferocity as honestly it seems it would be more from upbringing and refusing to fail then anything else.
It's not the core races than can be iffy, it's the non-core races you can reincarnate as. Drow for example, are spell like abilities social (everyone learns to cast them at will in school) or are they biological?I would argue that spell-like abilities are learned. It would be something you could do without learning it in school, like walking and talking.
The description (p.221 PFRPG) says that "The user activates it mentally." If a person were reincarnated as a drow, they would not gain drow spell-like abilities, since they are unique to the drow mind.
See, that's why I said they were iffy. Here's the flip side of the argument, they are supernatural. That means either they can't be learned, or else anyone could learn them by just being trained by drow.
See, that's why I said they were iffy. Here's the flip side of the argument, they are supernatural. That means either they can't be learned, or else anyone could learn them by just being trained by drow.
They're listed in the Bestiary as spell-like abilities. Supernatural abilities are similar, but not subject to SR, dispelling, etc.
Assuming drow aren't born able to walk and talk, they likewise lack spell-like abilities until they're old enough to be aware of them.
If a human were raised by drow, they wouldn't be able to learn drow spell-like abilities.
Conversely, a drow raised by humans would eventually discover their spell-like abilities, since they were born with a drow mind.
Mdt, ya the spell like ability can be argued either way. Depending on how you look at the game... just not enough history and depending on how it was portrayed in the past.
Gnomes, were related to fey, and it was just a natural part of their being, was how i always saw them being portrayed.
Drow, was original a drow female cleric ability (1st ed). Then it was portrayed in forgotten realms as all drow went and spent time training in magic school (2nd ed). So it become more muddled. So really depends on how your GM see it, or if your GM how you want it to be.
Loved Drow when they first came out... but as everyones favorite pet enemy or friend...they have gotten some power creep over the years....glad they were toned back down some in 3rd ed.
Note that drow were just an example. Duerger get to enlarge once per day. Half-giants get some power points for psionics (if you're using that supplement), is that social or physical?
Also, note above that someone said 'INT WIS and CHA are mental'. Yes they are. They are part of your bodies mental makeup. A vulcan is much smarter than a human, on average elves are smarter than humans. This is true whether the elf was raised in elf society or human society. So that's a physical manifestation. Their brains are wired differently. Stats are stats, mental or physical. You could have been an ugly brutish goblin, but someone resurrected you and you turned into a gossamer elf. Your old soul is in a new body. That new body is naturally graceful, attractive, and intelligent. It'll take a bit for you to adjust to it (I'd have the mental stats start at the old stats, and then adjust one point per week until they match the new stats).
Note that drow were just an example. Duerger get to enlarge once per day. Half-giants get some power points for psionics (if you're using that supplement), is that social or physical?
Also, note above that someone said 'INT WIS and CHA are mental'. Yes they are. They are part of your bodies mental makeup. A vulcan is much smarter than a human, on average elves are smarter than humans. This is true whether the elf was raised in elf society or human society. So that's a physical manifestation. Their brains are wired differently. Stats are stats, mental or physical. You could have been an ugly brutish goblin, but someone resurrected you and you turned into a gossamer elf. Your old soul is in a new body. That new body is naturally graceful, attractive, and intelligent. It'll take a bit for you to adjust to it (I'd have the mental stats start at the old stats, and then adjust one point per week until they match the new stats).
In Relation to the Reincarnate spell.....
The spell does not allow you to gain Int, Wis, or Char bonus. Nor would it allow you to gain ability that are trained, learned, or social abilities that you did not gain by growing up in that races background.
The Trade Off is that you keep those ability of your past races makeup. The spell Reincarnate gives you a new body, but leaves your mind/soul alone and in so doing, you keep your current skills, knowledge, and Class Levels.
I see no evidence whatsoever that a reincarnated creature does anything but lose ALL of its previous racial traits and gains ALL of the new race's traits (mental stats and languages excepting).
It seems to me anything else is a house rule.
I see no evidence whatsoever that a reincarnated creature does anything but lose ALL of its previous racial traits and gains ALL of the new race's traits (mental stats and languages excepting).
It seems to me anything else is a house rule.
sorry was basing this off past post i had read like..
Which means a human reincarnated as a half elf, then an elf has two more feats than a 'normal' character of that level would have... one from being human and a skill focus he picks up for being half elf?This is an increasingly tricky subject, since what it's sort of doing is treating races as templates. But basically... if you're reincarnated, your mental faculties remain unchanged but your physical ones change to match your new race. Since the game doesn't spell out exactly which is which, it takes a fair bit of GM interpretation for this.
So... a human reincarnated as a half elf would probably retain his bonus feat from being human, but would NOT gain the bonus Skill Focus feat from becoming a half elf.
The point is, you should NEVER be allowed to "collect" racial traits by being reincarnated over and over and over. Keeping the mental stuff constant and changing the physical each time to match the new body seems to be the most constant and logical method to handle it.
Whoops,
My bad. I'm not sure where I got the mental stats from, I could have sworn those got adjusted as well. But rereading the spell, it's strictly Str, Dex, and Con. My apologies.
Do you remember where you saw this post?
And thanks for all the ideas. I knew that I was opening a can of worms without a larger can being handy, but I can see this coming up in my new campaign and wanted to be prepared for it.
-- david
Papa.DRB
sorry was basing this off past post i had read like..
This is an increasingly tricky subject, since what it's sort of doing is treating races as templates. But basically... if you're reincarnated, your mental faculties remain unchanged but your physical ones change to match your new race. Since the game doesn't spell out exactly which is which, it takes a fair bit of GM interpretation for this.
... other good stuff...
The only thing that confuses me about this spell is how you handle things that are a direct increase in power, such as those humanoid forms that give you extra racial hit dice and all that, that entails.
Do you remember where you saw this post?
And thanks for all the ideas. I knew that I was opening a can of worms without a larger can being handy, but I can see this coming up in my new campaign and wanted to be prepared for it.
-- david
Papa.DRBsorry was basing this off past post i had read like..
This is an increasingly tricky subject, since what it's sort of doing is treating races as templates. But basically... if you're reincarnated, your mental faculties remain unchanged but your physical ones change to match your new race. Since the game doesn't spell out exactly which is which, it takes a fair bit of GM interpretation for this.
... other good stuff...
Just did a search for Reincarnated, look for thread that said rule clarification, reply - copy - pasted, the response from James Jacobs. I had read the post at some point in the past about this before, and just hand to Search-Fu to find it.
The only thing that confuses me about this spell is how you handle things that are a direct increase in power, such as those humanoid forms that give you extra racial hit dice and all that, that entails.
Have no clue on that.... ok, well i do have a clue, see below.
Hard Way.
by RAW .. PF Bestiary page 296+ = Adding Racial Hit Dice...as listed
Easy Way. (that i have found)
NOT by RAW .. PF Bestiary page 306-310 = Creature Types.
I just Templet the "Type" for how many HD the creature has.
Then add Character classes on top. Fastest way i have found to do it.
I am thinking that the Elven +2 IQ isnt a social trait but a Mental trait of biology therefor a Physical Trait. Their naturally intelligent I allways thought :)
I am thinking that the Elven +2 IQ isnt a social trait but a Mental trait of biology therefor a Physical Trait. Their naturally intelligent I allways thought :)
But the Reincarnate spell does not allow you to get Int, Wis, or Char. ;p
What's weird that is - if you follow the RAW - that even if you are reincarnated as the same race that you were before, your stats might change. In one of my games a cohort half-elf bard was reincarnated into a new half-elf body, and it made me notice that half-elves, half-orcs, and humans get a fixed +2 to one physical attribute from being reincarnated vis-a-vis their original freely-assignable +2 bonus. That doesn't really make sense to me. In that case, I ruled that the character kept all its ability scores as they were.
What's weird that is - if you follow the RAW - that even if you are reincarnated as the same race that you were before, your stats might change. In one of my games a cohort half-elf bard was reincarnated into a new half-elf body, and it made me notice that half-elves, half-orcs, and humans get a fixed +2 to one physical attribute from being reincarnated vis-a-vis their original freely-assignable +2 bonus. That doesn't really make sense to me. In that case, I ruled that the character kept all its ability scores as they were.
What you could do is allow them to move 2 points from any physical to any physical for situations like that. So, if they had a 14 str, 16 dex, and 14 con, you might let them move 2 points from dex to str, or 2 from str to con to represent the change of bodies.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Aah, reincarnation, my (almost) most liked spell ingame...
I had an issue with that in my game some while ago.
Thanks for the lists, Oliver McShade and seekerofshadowlight - helps me organize my jumbled mind.
In addition to the changes mentioned, I also ruled, that you lose all the stat adjustments made at creation and will gain the new stat adjustments as per the new race.
In my case it was a human who died (had a +2 adjustment for dex) and he was reborn as an elf.
So he lost his adjustment for dex (it is a new body after all) and had to adjust his rolled (yeah, we still take to the thrill) stats at creation with the adjustment in the section for elves in the PF RGP Reference Document.
Ruyan.