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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
This came up in a recent session and there's been some debate on how to rule on it. Here's the scenario:
Our Monk performed a successful grapple action on the npc, then proceeded to move the grappled creature through squares threatened by each PC, invoking AoO each time.
At the time we ruled that the npc gets a chance to break it each time it moves through a threatened square where it can be attacked. Now later on I found the "drag" combat maneuver listed on the SRD site, which specifically states there's no AoO on a successfully dragged creature unless the Greater Drag feat is known. The grapple description does not say one way or the other.
So the question is, does moving a grappled creature through a threatened square provoke an AoO? Or does that only happen with a drag combat maneuver with Greater Drag feat?
Ryzen wrote: This came up in a recent session and there's been some debate on how to rule on it. Here's the scenario:
Our Monk performed a successful grapple action on the npc, then proceeded to move the grappled creature through squares threatened by each PC, invoking AoO each time.
At the time we ruled that the npc gets a chance to break it each time it moves through a threatened square where it can be attacked. Now later on I found the "drag" combat maneuver listed on the SRD site, which specifically states there's no AoO on a successfully dragged creature unless the Greater Drag feat is known. The grapple description does not say one way or the other.
So the question is, does moving a grappled creature through a threatened square provoke an AoO? Or does that only happen with a drag combat maneuver with Greater Drag feat?
I believe the Drag combat maneuver comes from the Advanced Players Guide, so if you are not using that book, you may want to opt not to follow the new rules presented in it.
Looking at the Grapple section in the Core Rulebook, it looks like you handled this situation fairly. The "Move" option in Grapple doesn't address attacks of opportunity - which you think it would - but the part about hazardous location seems applicable to attacks of opportunity because they could cause injury, and the examples that are given (wall of fire, pit) would also cause injury, so if the target gets a free chance to escape that potential injury, it makes sense that it would get a free chance to escape other forms of potential injury as well.
reefwood wrote: Ryzen wrote: This came up in a recent session and there's been some debate on how to rule on it. Here's the scenario:
Our Monk performed a successful grapple action on the npc, then proceeded to move the grappled creature through squares threatened by each PC, invoking AoO each time.
At the time we ruled that the npc gets a chance to break it each time it moves through a threatened square where it can be attacked. Now later on I found the "drag" combat maneuver listed on the SRD site, which specifically states there's no AoO on a successfully dragged creature unless the Greater Drag feat is known. The grapple description does not say one way or the other.
So the question is, does moving a grappled creature through a threatened square provoke an AoO? Or does that only happen with a drag combat maneuver with Greater Drag feat?
I believe the Drag combat maneuver comes from the Advanced Players Guide, so if you are not using that book, you may want to opt not to follow the new rules presented in it. True, but Bull Rush works the same way (Bull Rushed opponent doesn't provoke unless attacker has the Greater feat).
If the target's movement provokes AoO, I agree, each square which it provokes AoO by moving into is hazardous and allows another attempt to escape.
Starglim wrote: If the target's movement provokes AoO, I agree, each square which it provokes AoO by moving into is hazardous and allows another attempt to escape. Yep.
I also rule that the grappler cannot move the grapplee through squares it could not normally move through. So no moving a Large creature through a narrow hallway (that would require squeezing, which is not normal movement) nor moving said creature through a square occupied by a creature considered an opponent (as that would require an Acrobatics check to do successfully). And these limitations are not removed by having a special feat.
Although I haven't had to apply them lately, a situation did come up awhile back and it was pretty clear that moving the grapplee could be really bad news from them.
azhrei_fje wrote: Starglim wrote: If the target's movement provokes AoO, I agree, each square which it provokes AoO by moving into is hazardous and allows another attempt to escape. Yep.
I also rule that the grappler cannot move the grapplee through squares it could not normally move through. So no moving a Large creature through a narrow hallway (that would require squeezing, which is not normal movement) nor moving said creature through a square occupied by a creature considered an opponent (as that would require an Acrobatics check to do successfully). And these limitations are not removed by having a special feat.
Although I haven't had to apply them lately, a situation did come up awhile back and it was pretty clear that moving the grapplee could be really bad news from them. I halfway agree with the general notion. Not to say you shouldn't do it like this, but I would handle these examples differently.
I would allow a grappler to move a Large creature into a 5 ft wide hallway, but the Large creature would get the free chance to break the grapple with the +4 bonus for hazard since being squeezed is dangerous. Or maybe a +6 bonus since it could be extra difficult to squeeze the Large creature into a tight space. However, a Huge creature could not be squeezed into a 5 ft wide hallway by a grappler, nor could a Large creature be crammed into an area only wide enough for a Small creature.
As for the other example...a creature can let an opponent pass through its squares, or so I gather from Overrun which allows the option to do this very thing, so if the grappler's ally allows it, it is possible, but the Large creature would get the free chance to break the grapple with a +4 bonus for hazard since moving into the grappler's ally's squares (opponent to Large creature) would provoke an AoO...just like Overrun does.
reefwood wrote: As for the other example...a creature can let an opponent pass through its squares, or so I gather from Overrun which allows the option to do this very thing, so if the grappler's ally allows it, it is possible, but the Large creature would get the free chance to break the grapple with a +4 bonus for hazard since moving into the grappler's ally's squares (opponent to Large creature) would provoke an AoO...just like Overrun does. Yeah, I thought about that. But overrun is a standard action and so is the grapple check for moving the grapplee. Saying "this is a special case" and allowing both to happen in a single turn sort of opens a can of worms -- the whole "give'em an inch and they'll take a mile" scenario. :)
And what about moving the grapplee through squares controlled by one of the grapplee's allies? Should they get an AOO? If so, and they choose to take it, does that give the grapplee a free CMB check at +4? Can they use their AOO to trip the grapplee, and if they do so does it stop the movement?
Too many variables. :-/ Since the rules don't say what the effects are, I decided to limit the actions rather than have to rule differently in the future because I gve too much leeway...
azhrei_fje wrote: reefwood wrote: As for the other example...a creature can let an opponent pass through its squares, or so I gather from Overrun which allows the option to do this very thing, so if the grappler's ally allows it, it is possible, but the Large creature would get the free chance to break the grapple with a +4 bonus for hazard since moving into the grappler's ally's squares (opponent to Large creature) would provoke an AoO...just like Overrun does. Yeah, I thought about that. But overrun is a standard action and so is the grapple check for moving the grapplee. Saying "this is a special case" and allowing both to happen in a single turn sort of opens a can of worms -- the whole "give'em an inch and they'll take a mile" scenario. :)
And what about moving the grapplee through squares controlled by one of the grapplee's allies? Should they get an AOO? If so, and they choose to take it, does that give the grapplee a free CMB check at +4? Can they use their AOO to trip the grapplee, and if they do so does it stop the movement?
Too many variables. :-/ Since the rules don't say what the effects are, I decided to limit the actions rather than have to rule differently in the future because I gve too much leeway... I totally understand keeping things simple to prevent players from overreaching.
Although, I didn't mean to imply that anyone was attempting an Overrun in my example. I just meant that the Overrun section shows that a creature can allow an opponent pass through its square.
The default rule is that you cannot pass through an opponent's square...unless you do something out of the ordinary, like make a successful Acrobatics check or Overrun attempt...but this seems to be based on the pretense that your opponent doesn't want you to move through your square. But what if the opponent wants, or at least allows, you to move through their square? That is an option in Overrun, so it seems like you can move through the square of anyone who allows it. Usually it is only your allies who allow this, but there is no reason why an opponent couldn't allow this either.
The reverse of this would apply to some of your other questions... the grapplee's allies would normally allow the grapplee to pass through their squares, but they could choose not to, so I suppose that would prevent the Large creature from being moved past the grapplee ally... unless the grappler squeezed the Large creature by its ally. The grapplee would get a free CMD +4 check to avoid the squeezing. And yes, the grapplee's ally could take an attack of opportunity, but I don't know if tripping the grapplee would stop movement. I'm pretty sure the rules would not support that, and thinking about it realistically... the grapplee goes from shoving and wrestling and doing everything possible to avoid being moved (which is represented by its CMD) and goes to being knocked off its feet - which could reduce its ability to fend off the grappler, so the argument could be made that it is easier to move a prone grapplee...but I would just say it is the same, no easier or no harder.
Anyway, that's just my two cents, and if this came up on the fly during one my games, I would probably keep in simple too ;) At least the first time.
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