What do you think about bringing a Force of Personality equivalent feat into a Pathfinder game? Is it too broken to be allowed? Is it necessary? What do you think?
For those that don't know the feat, it bases your will save on your charisma modifier instead of your wisdom modifier.
As far as I can tell, it won't stack with paladin divine grace. No stacking the same bonus (charisma) twice.
True, but what high level sorcerer is not failing most of their saves already? They get the short end of the stick when it comes to casting stat by far.
As far as I can tell, it won't stack with paladin divine grace. No stacking the same bonus (charisma) twice.
Actually it should - it allows you to use one ability score bonus in place of another ability score and this is completly different than unrelated special ability Divine Grace that allows you to increase all saves by Charisma bonus.
Also, as I recall, it only works against mind-affecting abilities, yes?
A minor distinction perhaps, but one worth noting when you get slapped by a harm spell.
I think that's right, yeah.
From the sounds of it, Seems like it would be ok tome. I mean your blowing a whole feat. Not much different than weapon finesse swapping dex for strength.
Super Genius Games has a feat called Self Delusion in Genius Guide to Feats of Subterfuge that lets you use Charisma modifier for Will save instead of Wisdom (with no "mind affecting only" clause).
I don't think it's too horrible. It might be more questionable if combined with Divine Grace.
We've been running our pathfinder games with the 4E concept of saving throws for the last year+. Str or Con for fortitude, dex or int for reflex, and wis or cha for will.
My saves are arguably better than they would be otherwise, but it hasn't yet proven overpowered. I still fail a lot of saves. :)
Super Genius Games has a feat called Self Delusion in Genius Guide to Feats of Subterfuge that lets you use Charisma modifier for Will save instead of Wisdom (with no "mind affecting only" clause).
I don't think it's too horrible. It might be more questionable if combined with Divine Grace.
I am not a fan of SGG.
Besides that, it is a good idea not to allow it to combine with divine grace even if the rules might let it. I say no double-dipping in one stat for the same bonus twice even if it's technically legal.
Just curious, why are you not a fan of theirs Umbral Reaver? Honestly I find myself liking their products for the campaigns I run more than most stuff I see.
If there was a private message system here, I'd discuss it.
One of the things I have seriously considered doing is sitting down with the entire 3.5 Complete XYZ series, a group of gaming minded friends and one by one go through the list.
Why was Feat A not translated to PFRPG?
Feat B?
Feat C?
at the end of the evening, be able to say, "These are ok, put them on the list!"
For what it's worth, I would vote YES to Force of Personality. I wouldn't see it as double dipping a stat (if combined with Divine Grace) and if I may be so bold, it makes a junk stat at least a bit more useful. Even a 14 CHA Fighter (trying to be the party face) would see the feat as desirable. And of course, it is a gimme to most Bards and all Sorcs ;)
My worry is that I don't want to open the flood gates. I *like* the restrictions of Pathfinder. Let me explain a bit, if I may. One of the issues I had with 3.5 was that it got so wild there at the end! lol It was such a rush to get to this PrC or that class combo as a DM and as a player, the game really got out of hand. In 40k it's called Codex Creep. "The newest book is quantitatively *better* than the older books. And even worse, a lot of the late 3.5 books were... extraneous. Do we really need four more feats in this $35 book? really? The rather (currently) limited scope of Pathfinder allows us (as players, and GMs) to control the game from a more intelligent stance. Not too many surpirses or crazy combo rules questions.
When running games in 3.x our group also held to a house rule that went something like this: Core and Setting sources only. That is, if it's a Forgotten Realms campaign, you get access to all Core and FR Setting materials. If you have an idea that might have to go beyond that, then by all means, bring it up to the group and the whole group decides. example, Rachel and Alisander had fallen in love, madly deeply truly. Was there a way we could manifest their devotion in game? Yes, but it's a Feat from the Ravenloft Setting (we were doing FR at the time). So, the group was polled and it was agreed that in their case "Smitten" was allowed.
Thank you for your time :)
GNOME
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We've been running our pathfinder games with the 4E concept of saving throws for the last year+. Str or Con for fortitude, dex or int for reflex, and wis or cha for will.
[tangent]
I was thinking of a house rule that you could use either the primary stat modifier (Con, Dex, Wis) *or* half of the secondary stat modifier (Str, Int, Cha), whichever was better. So the Sorcerer with an 18 Cha and a 10 Wisdom would get half of his +4 Cha mod (+2) to his Will saves, instead of the +0 from his Wisdom, while the Wizard / Rogue with a 16 Int and 14 Dex would still get a better Ref save bonus from his +2 Dex mod than from half of his +3 Int mod (rounded down to +1).Low Dex wizards and witches, and low Wisdom sorcerers and bards, would probably benefit most from that sort of thing. (And high Str, not-so-high Con characters, such as many monsters.)
[/tangent]
What do you think about bringing a Force of Personality equivalent feat into a Pathfinder game? Is it too broken to be allowed? Is it necessary? What do you think?
For those that don't know the feat, it bases your will save on your charisma modifier instead of your wisdom modifier.
As far as I can tell, it won't stack with paladin divine grace. No stacking the same bonus (charisma) twice.
I debated this with myself for some time. It's not broken, but at the same time there's Iron Will if you want to improve your Will save.
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What do you think about bringing a Force of Personality equivalent feat into a Pathfinder game? Is it too broken to be allowed? Is it necessary? What do you think?
For those that don't know the feat, it bases your will save on your charisma modifier instead of your wisdom modifier.
As far as I can tell, it won't stack with paladin divine grace. No stacking the same bonus (charisma) twice.
1. It's perfectly acceptable and not broken. We use it in our games (along with everything else in PHB2). We also allow Steadfast Determination (replace Wis with Con for Will Save), even though it has a Feat pre-req (Endurance, I believe).
2. Yes, it stacks with Divine Grace.
No it is not broken, and yes it stacks with divine grace.
So it becomes a tradeoff between 4 points on the point buy and a feat.
Personally I would have no problem seeing something similar, just as long as there were some kind of qualifying pre-req such as Cha 13 so that it simply doesn't become an excuse to dump wisdom for another stat.
Stat dumping is an issue. <grin> So how about it only replacing the wisdom modifier if it is positive, and stacking with it if it is negative?
Super Genius Games has a feat called Self Delusion in Genius Guide to Feats of Subterfuge that lets you use Charisma modifier for Will save instead of Wisdom (with no "mind affecting only" clause).
I don't think it's too horrible. It might be more questionable if combined with Divine Grace.
I allow Force of Personality to function exactly as this "Self Delusion" feat. I've never had a problem.
If a paladin wants to bolster his or her already ridiculously good Will saves with Charisma instead of Wisdom, I say let them. It's win-more (for those of you who play MTG). They already make a majority of their saves thanks to their good looks (divine grace). If someone wants to spend a precious feat to push a class strength even further, let them. It doesn't do anything to mitigate their class weaknesses.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that paladins make most of their Will saves. A BBEG who throws Will saves at them isn't being a very good villain. Attack paladins where they're weak, not strong (all Art of War style). Constructs, rays, etc. Don't focus on save-based threats.
Also, if your players use it, you should too.
My two cp, anyway...