The wizard in my game wants to animate the body of a dead demon. Is there any reason why animate dead wouldn't let him turn it into a zombie?
Thanks.
Per the standard cosmology, I think outsiders disappear (although their loot may remain) when you kill them unless you kill them on their home plane. If you kill them there, you have a corpse to play with as you please.
The wizard in my game wants to animate the body of a dead demon. Is there any reason why animate dead wouldn't let him turn it into a zombie?
Thanks.
yup, it's the outsider type itself. From the PRD:
"Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be."
The wizard in my game wants to animate the body of a dead demon. Is there any reason why animate dead wouldn't let him turn it into a zombie?
Thanks.yup, it's the outsider type itself. From the PRD:
"Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be."
He's not trying to bring it back to life, he's trying to animate the corpse as a zombie.
Assuming the creature leaves a corpse to animate (doesn't blow up, fade away, etc), the caster has a high enough caster level to create the appropriate skeleton/zombie (no more than twice the caster level in HD, 6HD is ok for 3rd level caster, 7HD isn't workable unless a desecration is up and running) and has that amount of HD available to control (12 HD controlled max at 3rd level) it would work. The only thing that it really does for either is allow it to keep natural attack options and modified base stats, it loses all special abilities and defenses from what the template reads.
This is one of those questions that pops up and always gets a number of mutually exclusive answers from various people with their own interpretation of certain things regarding the spell and about outsiders in general.
My own feeling, based entirely on the flavor side of things, is that no, the spell won't work on a dead outsider. I'm also of the feeling that unless you kill said outsider on its home plane, there's no body left behind to do anything to. It might vanish, it might erupt into flame and leave nothing behind, it might evaporate amid a wail of screams, or it might turn into a mass of vermin and scatter. But end result being there's no physical body to animate (and back on the home plane with a body, or something to that effect, I'd still be of the opinion that undead and outsiders are really something that under all but the most bizarre of circumstances are mutually exclusive options best handled on a case by utterly rare case basis).
I heavily read into the lack of body/soul duality as eliminating this as an option since the spell animates a physical shell, and in a manner of speaking these creatures lack that. They're an ideological concept, a metaphyiscal abstract that fakes its way in the world of flesh and bone, having something akin to substance but not being material substance in the same way as a living mortal. They're beings of idea and spirit, and animate dead shouldn't have a thing to do with them.
I don't like the idea of undead outsiders in general, because the conceptual basis for both often excludes the other. Case by case basis, and it fails in this situation IMO. I may get overruled here on a rules basis mind you as there's a lot of my own personal opinions here bleeding through here. And it's funny for reasons yet to be apparent and 6 months or so from now there's going to be reason to revisit this whole point with me, but we're not at that point remotely yet. No more on that, but pick on me then.
While I'll agree your "flavor" version of it fits, the crunch of the rules, RAW, doesn't make outsiders automatically disappear off of the plane they died on. Being in the rules forum I think we should focus on what the rules do and not the flavor of it. If the DM wishes to change it in their game, all the more power to them, but we should be hashing out what happens from the rules standpoint first and foremost here.
About the only reference I can come up with following your suggestion is regarding summoned creatures. I'm pretty sure they *poof* when killed and don't leave their goodies behind to loot. So unless an outsider is summoned, when they die here they are dead and gone (as per the outsider type) unless the 4 spells that are mentioned to work on bringing them back are used. Regarding the rules, as far as I can see, a dead "non" summoned outsider is for all intents and purposes a corpse like any other. You can loot it, and do what you want with the corpse as there isn't a soul that is going to be coming back to it, nor is the body needed to bring back the creature if you have access to those spells and wanted it back.
See "Planar Binding". Bodies do not *poof* when slain, which leaves a very useable corpse.
AFAIK, non-native outsiders in 3.5 could not be raised as undead neither resurrected.
AFAIK, in PF they can be raised as undead.
And frankly, if is true, is in the field of "why you changed it? WHY?" like giants being of the humanoid type.
See "Planar Binding". Bodies do not *poof* when slain, which leaves a very useable corpse.
Not sure how anything in the 'Planar Binding' series of spells has anything to do with this topic.
I'm sure that you could use magic to keep a dead outsider's essence from going anywhere or doing anything, but it's not a physical corpse in the same manner of a mortal corpse which you could then animate as a zombie. It's both soul and body at once, which puts it outside of the bounds of traditional animate dead use on a technical point on its own IMO.
See "Planar Binding". Bodies do not *poof* when slain, which leaves a very useable corpse.Not sure how anything in the 'Planar Binding' series of spells has anything to do with this topic.
I'm sure that you could use magic to keep a dead outsider's essence from going anywhere or doing anything, but it's not a physical corpse in the same manner of a mortal corpse which you could then animate as a zombie. It's both soul and body at once, which puts it outside of the bounds of traditional animate dead use on a technical point on its own IMO.
I agree with this personally.
I do not think 3.5 disallowed it, I remember it being an issue back then as well. On top of it outsiders have often very high stats for their HD and size, I would rule this to be a result of their spiritual presence and not purely physical.
The wizard in my game wants to animate the body of a dead demon. Is there any reason why animate dead wouldn't let him turn it into a zombie?
The only reason that matters if the GMs says so. And, just because, a quick demon zombie:
CR 5; XP 1,600
NE Large undead (extraplanar)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
DEFENSE
AC 13, touch 10, flat-footed 12 (+1 Dex, +3 natural, -1 size)
hp 60 (11d8+11)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +7
DR 5/slashing
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (clumsy)
Melee claw +13 (2d6+9) or bite +13 (1d8+9) or talon +13 (1d6+9)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 23, Dex 13, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 26
Feats Toughness (B)
Skills Fly -9
SQ staggered
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Staggered (Ex): Zombies have poor reflexes and can only perform a single move action or standard action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round as a charge action.
And frankly, if is true, is in the field of "why you changed it? WHY?" like giants being of the humanoid type.
Because like Beasts being absorbed by both Animals and Magical Beasts in the revision from 3.0 to 3.5, Giants as a full type is redundant. In most cases they are just big humanoids for size Large or larger. You used to be able to have rather silly things like Fine Giants.
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As to the body, it needs to be intact if one is left. Things like Lemures (lumps of flesh) or Balors (which explode) would be ill-suited for zombification.
Considering a zombie looses basically all of its special abilities (the things that make outsiders more kickass then most critters) there isn't much of a game balance issue.
You animate the corps with negative energy.
And frankly, if is true, is in the field of "why you changed it? WHY?" like giants being of the humanoid type.Because like Beasts being absorbed by both Animals and Magical Beasts in the revision from 3.0 to 3.5, Giants as a full type is redundant. In most cases they are just big humanoids for size Large or larger. You used to be able to have rather silly things like Fine Giants.
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As to the body, it needs to be intact if one is left. Things like Lemures (lumps of flesh) or Balors (which explode) would be ill-suited for zombification.
Considering a zombie looses basically all of its special abilities (the things that make outsiders more kickass then most critters) there isn't much of a game balance issue.
You animate the corps with negative energy.
IMHO the giant thing is wrong both by fluff and crunch. By fluff because I see them more as supernatular being akin to fey than to humanoids (a lot of them seem made of an element, see fire giants). Moreover, it created problems in game. hold person works on them, and without warrior class levels they must pay a feat for the weapon used (check fire and frost giants in bestiary).
That's bad. And with zero gain in the favored enemy/bane department.
IMHO there could be some problem anyway, because the aforementioned condition allowing a good reanimation can happen. Moreover, it kills IMHO the concept of outsider as entity which is sould and body not divisible.
Not sure how anything in the 'Planar Binding' series of spells has anything to do with this topic.
Sorry, my bad, you're right. I looked them up at the same time, so got them confused. Planar Binding is a Conjuration (Calling) spell. It's under CALLING, on p.209 in the core rules.
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from
another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants
the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of
origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances
under which this is possible. Creatures who are called
actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear
and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see
below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous,
which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.
Glabrezau make pretty darn good bloody skeletons.