I have question about the grappling rules. My group is starting to use them a lot more and I just wanted to clarify if we are using the rules correctly. In the core book, it states you can make a grapple as a standard action. If the person (or monster) succeeds on their grappling check, do they have to wait the following round to do one of the grappling effects, like pin, or make an attack (if they succeed in maintaining the grapple) or can they do it as soon as they make the grapple. It states on page 200 of the corebook that once the opponent is grappled they can do any one of those effects. So, I guess the question is, if player A grapples an orc, can player A immediately make an unarmed attack against the orc, or does player A have to wait until the next round to try to maintain the grapple and if successful, pin, move, or make an unarmed attack? Thanks!
hello, welcome to a grappling thread. please take your asbestos longjohns.
In the core book, it states you can make a grapple as a standard action. If the person (or monster) succeeds on their grappling check, do they have to wait the following round to do one of the grappling effects,
like pin: Yes, he has to wait. Unless the grappler has something like improved grapple that lets him grapple as a move action.
or make an attack: yes, you have to wait till next round to damage them. Your standard action was to grab them, thats it, you're done (baring special abilities)
It states on page 200 of the corebook that once the opponent is grappled they can do any one of those effects.
all of those actions are standard actions. So once you have a creature grappled (which cost you a standard action) you can use a standard action to move damage or pin. Since you only get one standard action a round, you have to wait for the next round.
o, I guess the question is, if player A grapples an orc, can player A immediately make an unarmed attack against the orc, or does player A have to wait until the next round to try to maintain the grapple and if successful, pin, move, or make an unarmed attack? Thanks!
baring feats he needs to wait.
R 1: grapple
R 2: attempt to make one check to: maintain and damage, maintain and move, maintain and pin.
|
The basic breakdown would be thus, assuming the PC has NO FEATS which allow for special grappling rules:
Step 1 (Round 1)- PC decided to initiate a grapple as a standard action. This provokes an AOO (Attack of Opportunity)
Step 2 (Round 1)- Resolve the AOO
Step 3 (Round 1)- PC makes a CMB (Combat Maneuver Bonus) check vs the Enemy's CMD (Combat Maneuver Defense). Example: 1d20 + CMB of 5 (1d20+5). Let us assume the result is 15 vs a CMD of 10. This succeeds.
Step 4 (Round 1)- PC and Enemy now have the "Grappled" condition. During the Enemy's turn, the Enemy may make a CMB (Or Escape Artist if he has it) check to either break free or "control" the grapple.
Step 5 (Round 2)- PC must roll another CMB check to maintain the grapple, with a +5 bonus for having the "control" over the grapple. Let us assume the PC succeeds.
Step 6 (Round 2)- PC may decide to perform a specific maneuver (Attack, Pin, etc). Repeat steps 4 and 5 for the remainder of the grapple.
NOTE: whoever currently "controls" the grapple may break it at any time as a FREE action.
Hope this helps. ^_^
If the person (or monster) succeeds on their grappling check, do they have to wait the following round to do one of the grappling effects, like pin, or make an attack (if they succeed in maintaining the grapple) or can they do it as soon as they make the grapple.
I agree with everyone else's comments -- assuming you don't have a special ability like Grab or Constrict, you can't deal damage on the first round (or pin, for that matter).
EDIT: Actually, by my interpretation even Greater Grapple doesn't give you the ability to make two grapple checks on the first round, but it's debatable.
NorseWolf i think you meant Greater Grapple which allows you to grapple as a move action. But everything else i agree with.
EDIT: Actually, by my interpretation even Greater Grapple doesn't give you the ability to make two grapple checks on the first round, but it's debatable.
attack action :establish a grapple
move action: pin.
Quick Question:
Could a PC with Greater Grapple damage an opponent twice in a round, by maintaining the grapple as a move using a successful check to damage the opponent, then using a standard to attack or do a second grapple check to damage the opponent again (perhaps if they had constrict this would be worth the risk)?
EDIT: Actually, by my interpretation even Greater Grapple doesn't give you the ability to make two grapple checks on the first round, but it's debatable.
attack action :establish a grapple
move action: pin.
I don't really want to get into it (because I think your interpretation is perfectly valid), but my take is that you can only use Greater Grapple to maintain a grapple as a move action and that you can't "re-maintain" or "double maintain" a grapple after you've already made a successful check that round.
I freely acknowledge that my opinion is in the minority though, so I'm not going to debate the issue.
Quick Question:
Could a PC with Greater Grapple damage an opponent twice in a round, by maintaining the grapple as a move using a successful check to damage the opponent, then using a standard to attack or do a second grapple check to damage the opponent again (perhaps if they had constrict this would be worth the risk)?
Absolutely! And I don't think it's particularly risky at all.
|
The basic breakdown would be thus, assuming the PC has NO FEATS which allow for special grappling rules:
Step 1 (Round 1)- PC decided to initiate a grapple as a standard action. This provokes an AOO (Attack of Opportunity)
Step 2 (Round 1)- Resolve the AOO
Step 3 (Round 1)- PC makes a CMB (Combat Maneuver Bonus) check vs the Enemy's CMD (Combat Maneuver Defense). Example: 1d20 + CMB of 5 (1d20+5). Let us assume the result is 15 vs a CMD of 10. This succeeds.
Step 4 (Round 1)- PC and Enemy now have the "Grappled" condition. During the Enemy's turn, the Enemy may make a CMB (Or Escape Artist if he has it) check to either break free or "control" the grapple.
Step 5 (Round 2)- PC must roll another CMB check to maintain the grapple, with a +5 bonus for having the "control" over the grapple. Let us assume the PC succeeds.
Step 6 (Round 2)- PC may decide to perform a specific maneuver (Attack, Pin, etc). Repeat steps 4 and 5 for the remainder of the grapple.
NOTE: whoever currently "controls" the grapple may break it at any time as a FREE action.
Hope this helps. ^_^
The only thing that I would add to this is with the AOO. when you are hit with an AOO from trying a Combat Maneuver, you add the damage from the AOO as a penalty to your CMB for the maneuver.
Here is the relevant section in the rules:
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
I freely acknowledge that my opinion is in the minority though, so I'm not going to debate the issue.
i can see where that interpretation is comming from. I don't even need to squint... much. :)
Thanks for the insight everyone. In my case, the PC does have the improved grapple, so we know he doesn't provoke the attack of opportunity, but we weren't clear if got his attack right away (he's a monk, so he's a grappling demon, figuratively). I haven't even heard of the greater grapple feat yet. Glad he hasn't taken that feat yet as it seems there are definitely different interpretations on that rule. But from what I see so far, everyone seems to agree that a run of the mill grapple is a standard action, and you need to wait until the next round to maintain your grapple before you can pin, move, or attack.
Since people actually responded to this thread- is there any limit to the size of a creature that can or can't be grappled? Specifically, is there a limit to the size category a medium size creature can grapple? I didn't see anything in the rules stating there was. I would like to apply common sense, but this a game of heroic fantasy where a monk can theoretically kill a dragon with his/her hands and feet so I'm loathe to say that a monk couldn't grapple a dragon, after all, that is what heroic feats and stories are all about.
|
|
Since people actually responded to this thread- is there any limit to the size of a creature that can or can't be grappled? Specifically, is there a limit to the size category a medium size creature can grapple? I didn't see anything in the rules stating there was. I would like to apply common sense, but this a game of heroic fantasy where a monk can theoretically kill a dragon with his/her hands and feet so I'm loathe to say that a monk couldn't grapple a dragon, after all, that is what heroic feats and stories are all about.
No limit, but it does get incredibly hard as the creature goes up in size....
From the PRd
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.
when you look at something like a tyrannosaurus, as a CR 9 Gargantuan monster, it has a CMD of 39. For a level 10 monk to grapple that they would need a 19 on dice (not counting the monks STR bonus and any grapple feats they have). And once they have grapple, keeping it against the dino's +32 CMB grapple check would be, "difficult"