My friends and I don't like the lack of a real weapon proficiency system, so I came up with this as a replacement; I fixed some other issues I have in the game as well (Monks don't only use Osaka weapons). I'm looking for opinions, critiques and flaws in the system.
Weapon Proficiencies
All classes loose automatic weapon proficiencies, instead gaining three extra feats. Weapon proficiencies are bought one at a time; each costing one feat. One new, required feat:
- Simple Weapon Proficiency
Choose one simple weapon; you understand how to use that weapon in combat.
Benefit: Gain proficiency in one simple weapon, all non-proficiency penalties in this weapon’s weapon group are reduced by one.
Special: You can gain Simple Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat it applies to a new type of weapon.
Normal: When using a simple weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls.
Some other changes include:
- Non-proficiency in all simple weapons is -2, non-proficiency in all martial weapons is -4 and non-proficiency in all exotic weapons is -6. Each weapon belongs to a weapon group, every time you take proficiency in a weapon the penalties for the group is reduced by one. Having no penalty in a weapon does not mean that you have proficiency.
- All classes that would normally have all martial proficiencies instead get; Martial Weapon Training: All non-proficiency penalties are reduced by 2.
- Monk weapons no longer exist; instead the Kama uses the Sickle stats; Nunchaku uses Flail stats; Sai uses dagger stats; Siangham uses the short spear stats; and Temple sword uses longsword stats. Monks can flurry with any weapon they have proficiency in.
- Double weapons can take up to three different proficiencies, each end requiring the feat appropriate to its weapon type plus an extra proficiency for double weapons. The nice thing is that you only have to take double weapon once; it counts for all double weapons.
- Longbow covers the use of both longbow and composite longbow. Shortbow covers the use of both shortbow and composite shortbow.
- Gauntlets and brass knuckles are covered under Improved Unarmed Strike and do not require a separate proficiency.
Some Weapon Groups; note, this doesn’t cover everything I hope you can figure out which group the non-listed weapons belong to.
- Axes: Battleaxe, Dwarven Waraxe, Greataxe, Throwing Axe
Bows: Longbow, Shortbow
Blowguns: Blowgun
Claw Weapons: Cestus, Spiked Gauntlet
Crossbows: Double Crossbow, Hand Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Light Crossbow: Repeating Heavy Crossbow, Repeating Light Crossbow
Flails and Chains: Flail, Heavy Flail, Spiked Chain, Whip
Heavy Blades: Bastard Sword, Elven Curve Blade, Falcata, Falchion, Greatsword, Khopesh, Longsword
Light Blades: Dagger, Kukri, Punching Dagger, Rapier, Scimitar, Short Sword, Starknife, Sword Cane, Swordbreaker Dagger
Maces and Clubs: Battle Aspergillum, Club, Greatclub, Heavy Mace, Light Mace, Morningstar, Sap
Picks and Hammers: Heavy Pick, Heavy Shield, Heavy Spiked Shield, Light hammer, Light Pick, Light Shield, Light Spiked Shield, Scythe, Sickle, Spiked Armor, Warhammer
Slings and Thrown Weapons: Bolas, Boomerang, Chakram, Dart, Grenade-like-weapons, Halfling Sling Staff, Lasso, Net, Shuriken, Sling
Polearms: Bardiche, Bec De Corbin, Bill, Glaive, Glaive-Guisarme, Guisarme, Halberd, Lucerne Hammer, Mancatcher, Ranseur
Spears and Lances: Bayonet, Boar Spear, Javelin, Lance, Longspear, Pilum, Shortspear, Spear, Trident
Please note: if you are unhappy with the placement of the weapons in their groups, change them. I'm just looking for opinions, not set in stone.
When I read this I see, "Wizard gets two bonus feats - hooray!"
I don't really see what you're trying to accomplish. The game already rewards sticking with one or two weapons as much as possible because of feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, and even more so because of the high price of magic weapons.
Are you finding that characters switch weapons too often for your liking?
When I read this I see, "Wizard gets two bonus feats - hooray!"
I know isn't it cool! Though I'm adding in spells as a type of proficiency group. (Spells: Touch, Ray, Line, Area With a lack of proficiency in line and area adding the normal penalty to hit as a plus to the save against.)
I don't really see what you're trying to accomplish. The game already rewards sticking with one or two weapons as much as possible because of feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, and even more so because of the high price of magic weapons.
Are you finding that characters switch weapons too often for your liking?
:-) Lol, it's a fix for a friend who doesn't like the current system of weapon proficiency.
"It's b%~%~*%@ for anyone to be 'proficient' in that many weapons, I've practiced combat for the last 8 years and I wouldn't even consider my self proficient in Dagger, let alone all these 'Simple weapons'. so unless these 15-20 year olds have been doing nothing but combat sense they where 10, with no other life, there is no way for anyone to pick all this up!" -My Friend
So I've tried to create a balanced system that fixes this "argument". So yes, while I'll agree it's not necessary; I'm interested in it's effect on game play and balance.
Well, all "proficiency" in a weapon in Pathfinder means is basically, "I know which end I'm supposed to use". That's it. As mentioned before, it's feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization that represent any sort of mastery of the weapon. The problem isn't the system, it's how your friend is reading the word "proficiency". Also, he seems to forget that wizards are combining a pinch of bat guano, some flagrant gestures and the words "hocus pocus" to make the air burst into flame at hundreds of feet away.
Well, all "proficiency" in a weapon in Pathfinder means is basically, "I know which end I'm supposed to use". That's it. As mentioned before, it's feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization that represent any sort of mastery of the weapon. The problem isn't the system, it's how your friend is reading the word "proficiency". Also, he seems to forget that wizards are combining a pinch of bat guano, some flagrant gestures and the words "hocus pocus" to make the air burst into flame at hundreds of feet away.
Great, you talk to him. ;-) I've given up trying to convince him differently, instead I'm doing what I love, playing with rules.
Oh and so that you have a response from him."Then why can't rogues use all weapons, if the only thing that is required it to know what end to use then why can't everyone use a Sai, it's a basic weapon that anyone can use, it's a dagger with some extra parts" - My Friend.
Instead of arguing against doing this please critique it from the point of view of using it.
They can use a sai, actually, at a -4 to hit, and without the "disarm" quality. And no, a sai is not a dagger with extra points. You use the tines of the sai for weapon locks (the disarm ability) and you tend to use both the pommel and blade for damage. You'll note that Pathfinder sais are bludgeoning damage, which means that it's not a bladed said, and that you are intended to use the pommel to strike and the tines to disarm. This is why a rogue cannot use a sai without the -4 non-proficiency penalty, because he'd probably want to stab someone with a blunt instrument like your friend suggests.
Rogues, in their training with how to find and disarm traps, the anatomy of literally hundreds or thousands of different creatures (how do you think sneak attacks add extra damage?), they are given familiarity with a hand full of weapons that are useful in their traditional trade.
The same goes with wizards, druids and monks, and anyone else who has a very specific and limited weapon list. The druid list, if I remember my DnD history correctly, is actually limited not based on access to knowledge but for "religious" reasons. All of the weapons that the druid is proficient in are weapons that either have no metal in them, or are derivatives of farming implements.
If you are dead set on changing the system, you need to limit those bonus feats to "weapon feats" and then define a sub-set of weapon feats. Every wizard I've ever played only took a staff with him because it was iconic. I think one had a crossbow too. The other dozen never touched their weapons. So, using your rules, I'd shirk those weapon feats and grab some nifty regular feats. Even if you limited it to combat feats, I'd get Improved Initiative and Defensive Combat Training instead of a weapon proficiency.
This is to say that I dislike it all. I actually really like what you've done with the non-weapon proficiencies. It really makes sense. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out how to properly use a club, but picking up a dwarven urgosh ought to be confusing. The scaled system (and the reduced penalty for All Martial Weapons characters) is very nice.
Also, why don't you simply use the weapon lists from the Fighter entry for your weapon groups? Pathfinder did most of the leg-work there for you. Have characters choose 1, 2 or 3 weapon groups (maybe based on BAB progression?) instead of blanket proficiencies. For fighters and other dedicated martial characters, it won't make a whole lot of difference if he has 3 groups or all of them in actual play, since he'll focus on one weapon type (with Weapon Focus et al) and maybe keep a backup weapon of an alternate type/material if the situation needs it. It would allow your example sorcerer to know how to use that sword he picked up to defend the gate, though, or allow your rogue to not bother with a rapier but pick up a longsword instead, if she wanted.
I also agree that a monk ought to be able to flurry with whatever weapons he's proficient in. I like this change, especially with the altered weapon proficiencies. I would discourage making some of the weapons equivalent though. As mentioned, a dagger and a sai are very different weapons that are used very differently. The same with nunchaku and flails. I do agree on the kama and temple sword though. I have little familiarity with the siangham to make a judgment here.
Anyway, all that to say, I don't think what you are doing is necessary or really improves the play of the game, but if you really want to do it, those are my suggestions.
The druid list, if I remember my DnD history correctly, is actually limited not based on access to knowledge but for "religious" reasons. All of the weapons that the druid is proficient in are weapons that either have no metal in them, or are derivatives of farming implements.
You are mostly correct on this part, it is based on religious reasons, and the scimitar should be replace with the scythe.
If you are dead set on changing the system, you need to limit those bonus feats to "weapon feats" and then define a sub-set of weapon feats. Every wizard I've ever played only took a staff with him because it was iconic. I think one had a crossbow too. The other dozen never touched their weapons. So, using your rules, I'd shirk those weapon feats and grab some nifty regular feats. Even if you limited it to combat feats, I'd get Improved Initiative and Defensive Combat Training instead of a weapon proficiency.
I have been told this, and personally I'd be picking up skill focus feats, my problem is I see no problem with this, if you wan't to not train in one more weapon, and instead pick up something else, do it. This is a attempt to represent what you have trained in, if you didn't pick up a longsword and instead practice sneaking you should get skill focus stealth.
This is to say that I dislike it all. I actually really like what you've done with the non-weapon proficiencies. It really makes sense. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out how to properly use a club, but picking up a dwarven urgosh ought to be confusing. The scaled system (and the reduced penalty for All Martial Weapons characters) is very nice.
thank you, i'm rather happy with it as well.
Also, why don't you simply use the weapon lists from the Fighter entry for your weapon groups?
because i'm a bloody idiot, i'll look that stuff up lator.
Have characters choose 1, 2 or 3 weapon groups (maybe based on BAB progression?) instead of blanket proficiencies. For fighters and other dedicated martial characters, it won't make a whole lot of difference if he has 3 groups or all of them in actual play, since he'll focus on one weapon type (with Weapon Focus et al) and maybe keep a backup weapon of an alternate type/material if the situation needs it. It would allow your example sorcerer to know how to use that sword he picked up to defend the gate, though, or allow your rogue to not bother with a rapier but pick up a longsword instead, if she wanted.
I tried to stay away from group proficiencies, a throw back to 2nd edition.
I also agree that a monk ought to be able to flurry with whatever weapons he's proficient in. I like this change, especially with the altered weapon proficiencies. I would discourage making some of the weapons equivalent though. As mentioned, a dagger and a sai are very different weapons that are used very differently. The same with nunchaku and flails. I do agree on the kama and temple sword though. I have little familiarity with the siangham to make a judgment here.
fair enough, though with the exception of the monk ability, the flail has the exact same stats as the nunchaku. so i if i make sai a addtional proficiency you'd be happy?
Anyway, all that to say, I don't think what you are doing is necessary or really improves the play of the game, but if you really want to do it, those are my suggestions.
Thanks for the help.
Updated:
Weapon Proficiencies
All classes loose automatic weapon proficiencies, instead gaining three extra feats. Weapon proficiencies are bought one at a time; each costing one feat. This adds one feat:
- Simple Weapon Proficiency
Choose one simple weapon; you understand how to use that weapon in combat.
Benefit: Gain proficiency in one simple weapon, all non-proficiency penalties in this weapon’s weapon group are reduced by one.
Special: You can gain Simple Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat it applies to a new type of weapon.
Normal: When using a simple weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls.
Some other changes include:
- Non-proficiency in all simple weapons is -2, non-proficiency in all martial weapons is -4 and non-proficiency in all exotic weapons is -6. Each weapon belongs to a weapon group, every time you take proficiency in a weapon the penalties for the group is reduced by one. Having no penalty in a weapon does not mean that you have proficiency. All classes that would normally have all martial proficiencies instead get; Martial Weapon Training: All non-proficiency penalties are reduced by 2.
- Monk weapons no longer exist; instead the Kama uses the Sickle stats; Nunchaku uses Flail stats; Siangham uses the short spear stats; and Temple sword uses longsword stats. Monks can flurry with any weapon they have proficiency in.
- Double weapons can take up to three different proficiencies, each end requiring the feat appropriate to its weapon type plus an extra proficiency for double weapons. The nice thing is that you only have to take double weapon once; it counts for all double weapons.
- Longbow covers the use of both longbow and composite longbow. Shortbow covers the use of both shortbow and composite shortbow.
Gauntlets and brass knuckles are covered under Improved Unarmed Strike and do not require a separate proficiency.
- All the spell weapon proficiency's count as simple weapons.
Some Weapon Groups; note, this doesn’t cover everything I hope you can figure out which group the non-listed weapons belong to.
- Axes: battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, light pick, throwing axe
Blades, Heavy: bastard sword, elven curve blade, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, scythe
Blades, Light: dagger, kukri, rapier, sai, sickle, starknife, short sword
Bows: longbow, shortbow
Close: gauntlet, heavy shield, light shield, punching dagger, sap, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield
Crossbows: hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, light repeating crossbow
Flails: dire flail, flail, heavy flail, morningstar, nunchaku, spiked chain, whip
Hammers: club, greatclub, heavy mace, light hammer, light mace, sai, warhammer
Natural: unarmed strike, all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, wing
Pole Arms: glaive, guisarme, halberd, ranseur
Spears: javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, spear, trident
Spells: Touch Attacks, Ranged Touch Attacks, Line Effects, Cone Effects, Area Effects
Thrown: blowgun, bolas, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe trident
Special note: The proficiency in longbow/shortbow already grant proficiency in the composite version. No need to make special mention of that.
I'm a little confused what this means.
All the spell weapon proficiency's count as simple weapons.
Looking at the "spells" proficiency, I'm not sure what the purpose is. I don't know of any line, cone or other area effect spells that require attack rolls, so it's really just for melee and ranged touch attack spells.
Also, you've stated that gauntlets and brass knuckles are unarmed strikes but still list them as proficiencies in the "Close" category. Same with the nunchaku (which you turned into flails). Also I'm a little confused as to why the sai is listed as a "hammer". It should probably be used as a "close" weapon.
Also, the "thrown" category is rather large. You might either move some of them to other categories or split it in half. I'd at least move "light hammer" into hammers, "throwing axes" into axes and such. Also, this category doubles up a lot of stuff. Not sure if that was intentional.
Also, are you keeping the BAB +1 requirement on Exotic Weapon Proficiency? Also, since simple weapon proficiency and martial weapon proficiency have the same entry cost (that is, nothing), why would anyone take a simple weapon? Martial weapons are inherently better than simple weapons. That's kind of the point. You might need to add a prereq to that feat, too. Also, what about prestige classes that require "proficiency in all martial weapons" (such as Eldritch Knight)?
Special note: The proficiency in longbow/shortbow already grant proficiency in the composite version. No need to make special mention of that.
In the weapon group list in the book they have them listed separately, it's me cutting it off at the head, the proficiencies are only listed as longbow/shortbow, with a note that they cover the composite versions.
I'm a little confused what this means.
All the spell weapon proficiency's count as simple weapons.Looking at the "spells" proficiency, I'm not sure what the purpose is. I don't know of any line, cone or other area effect spells that require attack rolls, so it's really just for melee and ranged touch attack spells.
I had to give them a type. the wording sucks.
Also, you've stated that gauntlets and brass knuckles are unarmed strikes but still list them as proficiencies in the "Close" category. Same with the nunchaku (which you turned into flails). Also I'm a little confused as to why the sai is listed as a "hammer". It should probably be used as a "close" weapon.
thanks for noticing the errors.
Also, the "thrown" category is rather large. You might either move some of them to other categories or split it in half. I'd at least move "light hammer" into hammers, "throwing axes" into axes and such. Also, this category doubles up a lot of stuff. Not sure if that was intentional.
I just copied the category's from the lists under fighter, i also notice it was large.
Also, are you keeping the BAB +1 requirement on Exotic Weapon Proficiency? Also, since simple weapon proficiency and martial weapon proficiency have the same entry cost (that is, nothing), why would anyone take a simple weapon? Martial weapons are inherently better than simple weapons. That's kind of the point. You might need to add a prereq to that feat, too. Also, what about prestige classes that require "proficiency in all martial weapons" (such as Eldritch Knight)?
I was thinking of adding a +1 bab requirement to martial weapon proficiency, and a martial weapon proficiency to exotic weapon, just hadn't yet. Any class the would require "proficiency in all martial weapons" would instead require "Martial weapon training".