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One of the bigest problem for me to adjucate as a DM is charm spells/abilities.
In my group the gnome sorcerer use it all the time charming orcs for passwords and camps location as well as charming ogres so they fight each other instead of fighting togheter!
The concept is awsome but adjucating it in game is pain in the butt!
Let's take an easy exemple that arise in te last game. An ambush occured involving 6 orcs leaded by 1 ogre.
Both party where aware so no surprise round occured. On the sorcerer turn he cast charm person on the ogre and since the ogre is a humanoid a declared it as a valid target. Of course ogre suck at will save and fail his save.
Then the concept of behing threatened came in of course nobody hit the ogre yet BUT.. the ogre had 2 ennemie mele charging at him!
Is he considered threatened in order to have the +5 bonus on his save or not?
Then assuming that everything was done correctly the next step was the sorcerer ordering the ogre to smash the orcs. Then again we're walking the thin line... the ogre sees the sorcerer as a trusted friend but his orcs "meatsheild" are also trusted friend at some point.
Then a charisma check is in order but yet again the ogre is almost certain to lose that ceck VS a high charisma sorcerer wich is what happened. The end result is 5 characters sitting in the woods betting on the outcome of the fight between an ogre and 6 "afraid" orcs!
A pretty dump situation that i feel pretty uncomfortable with to say the least. I think the rules are too vague about charm (not compulsions) at best.
What is considered threatening as for the +5 bonus on will save to be awarded? Because my group is abusing that "grey zone" ALL THE WAY!
Is attacking 6 orcs a "harmful order" or a charisma check only would do it?
Charm makes somebody your friend, not your slave.
If I am your friend, will you beat up another friend for me, one you have known longer? No.
If I am your friend, will you reveal secrets to me you know are valuable to your enemies (who you know I associate with)? No.
If you are fighting the allies of a person you charm, you count as threatening them. In the example above, the best outcome for the party would be the ogre staying out of the fight. The most likely was the ogre grabbing his new friend and carrying them off so they didn't get hurt by the orcs.
Charm is good ... but it's only a first level spell. The way to use it is like the Jedi mind-trick, in out-of-combat situations.
In my opinion, in any combat situation you get the +5 bonus.
I do agree that the Charm spells differ drastically in power based on the DM, and it's not all that clear what the game designers want.
The plot of the first part of Legacy of Fire (Howl of the Carrion King) only really works if Charm is all-but-Dominate -- otherwise I'm not sure how exactly Xulthos bends Kardswann to his will and turns him into an evil mockery of his former self.
And that's Erik Mona writing, which to me seems like a strong endorsement of: the Paizo Powers That Be think it should work this way.
I'd love to see it further clarified in errata / a future edition.
yes, save or suck spells like charm person can be pretty problematic.
Then the concept of being threatened came in of course nobody hit the ogre yet BUT.. the ogre had 2 ennemie mele charging at him!
Is he considered threatened in order to have the +5 bonus on his save or not?
the use of the word threatened in the description is the plain english version, rather than the technical D&D version of having someone in melee range of you. 4 armed adventurers skulking out of the woods and pointing weapons and spells at you are threatening, so yes, he gets the +5 bonus.
Then assuming that everything was done correctly the next step was the sorcerer ordering the ogre to smash the orcs. Then again we're walking the thin line... the ogre sees the sorcerer as a trusted friend but his orcs "meatsheild" are also trusted friend at some point.
The ogre will not bash his old friends for his new friend. He will tell the orcs to not attack, but he will also tell his friends friends not to attack either.
does the character speak ogre? if not, no orders for you. The ogre might even tell the orcs to "kill the others but leave the one in the pointy hat alone"
What is considered threatening as for the +5 bonus on will save to be awarded? Because my group is abusing that "grey zone" ALL THE WAY!
Is attacking 6 orcs a "harmful order" or a charisma check only would do it?
if any of the following have occurred
weapons drawn
a violent spell has been cast
people popping out of nowhere unexpectedly.
usually if you've rolled initiative for combat someone has already threatened someone else.