Meta'd spells and meta-rods

[LoreKeeper]

So... except for "heighten", metamagic feats do not change the spell level of a spell (though it does take a higher spell slot).

...and a lesser metamagic rod works with up to level 3 spells.

Does this work:

Haste spell (level 3), extended with feat (to slot 4), combined with a lesser metamagic rod of silent.

?

Thanks :)

[Montis]

Another question while we're at it: can you apply multiple metamagic rods to a single spell?
Say you're a 6th level Sorcerer and have got one Lesser Maximize Rod and one Lesser Empower Rod and want to cast a Maximized Empowered Fireball... would that work by using both rods at the same time?

[LoreKeeper]

@Montis:

The rules are quite straightforward on that part:

Quote:

A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder

[LoreKeeper]

Still need help on the OP, anybody know?

[The Wraith]

A good question, sadly I cannot quote a specific rule which says if this can be done or not. Judging from a 'gut' feeling, I would say that it can be done - a 3rd level spell is still a 3rd level spell, even if Empowered/Stilled/Silenced (but not if Heightned, as you already said) for all purposes - DCs, immunities, minimum requirements for Casting Score, Concentration checks*, and so on.

*(this last one actually could be debatable, but the Concentration rules mention 'spell level' not 'spell slot')

Following these examples, I would say that a 3rd level spell (not Heightened to higher levels) would always be eligible for Metamagic Rods.

Just my 2c.

[LoreKeeper]

@The Wraith:

Thanks, that is my gut feeling as well. Given that there are no other caveats in the rules - that is how it should be. I'm primarily worried that there is some official word or rule somewhere that I don't know. :)

[james maissen]

LoreKeeper wrote:

Does this work:

Haste spell (level 3), extended with feat (to slot 4), combined with a lesser metamagic rod of silent.

?

Thanks :)

No it does not.

The problem is that there are multiple 'levels' being used here.

There is 'slot' level, 'casting' level, and effective (for DCs, etc) 'spell' level.

These aren't official terms but rather to attempt to distinguish them from one another.

If you look at the WotC FAQ on them you'll see that it's the slot level that matters for metamagic rods.

This is akin to 'can I use a pearl 1 to bring back a quickened true strike?' or the like.

-James

[LoreKeeper]

A more rigorous definition system would definitely aid clarity here. Thanks :)

This reminds me of a question a while back about cantrips and metamagic feats - is casting a maximized ray of frost a consumed spell or does it stay like a cantrip should.

I will take the WotC FAQ as supporting evidence then; though I do not refer to that FAQ as more than a good opinion these days.

A pearl-of-power 1 + quickened true strike is a good example; but I do not think there is a balance problem with it. Even if you have 50 pearlsofpower1, the best you could do is have a quickened true strike round 1, recover (as standard action) round 2, quickened true strike round 3, recover round 4, etc

[james maissen]

LoreKeeper wrote:

A pearl-of-power 1 + quickened true strike is a good example; but I do not think there is a balance problem with it. Even if you have 50 pearlsofpower1, the best you could do is have a quickened true strike round 1, recover (as standard action) round 2, quickened true strike round 3, recover round 4, etc

Its more like being able to recover, on the cheap, all of your quickened spells for each and every combat. I've only once used pearls of power during combat and that was one that was sadly under-wraps from the get go.

So if you have a PC that's say 11th level you can easily afford to have say 2 quickened 1st levels and a quickened 2nd level for each of 4 combats by spending 18k gold (9k crafted). Meanwhile recovering a single 6th level spell would take twice that.

Seeing as having a quickened spell each round of each combat is a huge power boost, I'll say that there's a balance problem with it.

-James

[James Risner]

LoreKeeper wrote:

Haste spell (level 3), extended with feat (to slot 4), combined with a lesser metamagic rod of silent.

It does say it can be used together with a feat.

What it doesn't cover is whether or not the spell slot used play into the limitation.
For instance, in 3.5 (and I presume in PF) a ring of spell storing with a extended haste was considered 4th level and not 3rd.

It then comes down to "Ask your DM" and he can answer two ways:
1) You need a rod of silent that can handle 3rd level spells.

2) You need a rod of silent that can handle 4th level spells.

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