Need Help in Temple of Elemental Evil 3.5


3.5/d20/OGL


Hello fellows who frequent the Paizo boards, I come to you in search of advice. Here's the lowdown:

It's my first time GMing D&D (and also pretty much my first time playing it, aside from a few campaigns which died after 2-3 sessions). I decided to go with a "Greyhawk Classics" campaign, planning to go all the way from ToEE through Slave Lords, Giants, and finally Drow.
We've started the game in Hommlet, and the party already tackled the Moathouse and are now at the Temple, and here's where I've been having trouble.
This is the current party:
LG male human paladin 5/anointed knight 3 - Party leader & Tank
N male human wizard 3/cleric of Boccob 3/mystic theurge 2 - Caster & Healer.
LN male dwarf fighter 6 - Secondary tank
LG male human monk 5 - Has Vows of Poverty, Nonviolence and Peace (Yes, only too late did I realize I may have shot myself in the foot allowing BoED)
and Furnok, the rogue from Hommlet that I'm controlling as an NPC (the party went back to get him after falling for one to many traps XD)

Now, right now my two main concerns are the exalted monk (though I plan to see him develop a bit, if it starts to become troublesome I'll try to kill him, right now I've banned further use of the BoED aside from those two chars) and the fact that the party has advanced way beyond what I have planned (they've only explored half of the first level and already at levels 7-8, I had been planning to them being at most lvl 10 when finishing the Temple). Right now I fear the rest of the Temple, especially the Elemental Nodes, will drag on too much and the party will end up on a way too high level. Currently I was thinking on cropping the Nodes, and perhaps the 4th level.
So, has anyone run ToEE for 3.5? Any feedback or pointers you could give? Help me Paizoans, you're my only hope!


I can't offer any help concerning the module/campaign, but I can help with the monk.

Step one: Throw away the vows of Nonviolence and Peace, those are huge hassles to the party as a whole and just make a mess of things.

Step two: Take away the prerequisite feat (some feat that doesn't do anything, I forget what it's called, it's a gateway feat to the vows) and let him have VoP for a single feat.

Step three: Let him choose additional feats that don't entirely rewrite how the game functions. Approve or deny them carefully. Depending on the level of optimization in the party I might suggest "Lion Tribe Warrior" which allows the person with it to use pounce with a single light weapon (unarmed strikes included) Another feat that might appeal to him is Intuitive Attack (weapon finesse with wisdom instead of dex)

That should clean things up with the monk. The anointed knight shouldn't be a problem, it's a cool class, but arguably a bit underpowered. Hope the Pally's making good use of Paladin wands, since I've heard ToEE is a hardcore module lol.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

I can't offer any help concerning the module/campaign, but I can help with the monk.

Step one: Throw away the vows of Nonviolence and Peace, those are huge hassles to the party as a whole and just make a mess of things.

Step two: Take away the prerequisite feat (some feat that doesn't do anything, I forget what it's called, it's a gateway feat to the vows) and let him have VoP for a single feat.

Step three: Let him choose additional feats that don't entirely rewrite how the game functions. Approve or deny them carefully. Depending on the level of optimization in the party I might suggest "Lion Tribe Warrior" which allows the person with it to use pounce with a single light weapon (unarmed strikes included) Another feat that might appeal to him is Intuitive Attack (weapon finesse with wisdom instead of dex)

That should clean things up with the monk. The anointed knight shouldn't be a problem, it's a cool class, but arguably a bit underpowered. Hope the Pally's making good use of Paladin wands, since I've heard ToEE is a hardcore module lol.

Thanks for your advice! Not sure if the player will go for it, but I'll have to check with him, I guess, I also don't want to outright ban his character since I allowed it in first place :S. Then again, he has only been on two sessions, which is why he still is 5th level, so so far he hasn't been too much of a hassle.

Also, don't worry about the paladin's well-being: so far he's been a mounstruos tank, It's almost scary how much damage he can deal, the player has been really lucky with dice so far.


I ran the module for my group a few years ago. Our party was smaller and I couldn't stand the level advancement 3.0 & 3.5 offered so I had changed it so it was more akin to 1st edition. We had to start the module around level 7 or so in order to even have a chance to succeed. Needless to say we were to high of level for the early encounters. I kept the module the relatively unchanged at this point which means the first part was very easy. Experience was modified downward because the encounter offset.This gave the players a false sense of security which would catch up with them later. By level 8-9 things were spot on and with my XP alterations we were about 12-13th level by the time we had reached the end. Much of the experience I awarded was for roleplaying and challenges (as the DM Guide goes into) as well as for monsters, as this fit my style of Dming far more than just hack and slay.

The group suffered greatly in the sense of treasure. Much of what they acquired were given in exchange for life saving spells, primarily teleport. I found it pretty unbelieveable that after this incredibly long module that the treasures we wrought were very little. Special treasures were handed out much later in the adventure as a result of the epic quest the characters had taken on.

All in all it was one of the best modules we ever gamed, many rememberful moments to say the least. I inserted a lot of tie in's for the ongoing campaign rather than playing the module as is. This only served to make the module tougher but also provided a more meaningful experience for the players and characters.

Had we not made some incredibly interesting decisions and ample use of not just the NPCs provided in the module but other special NPCs that grew out of the module unexpectedly we certainly would have failed.

I realize this doesn't really help you all that much, but I guess I'd suggest not getting all hung up on challenges and character levels until their getting near an area you feel you should modify in order to make the module more akin to your likeing (whether you need to make it easier or harder). It is so long that attempting to project such things this far ahead of time, with the ample amount of NPCs available within the adventure and all the unknown things players are going to do (for better or worse) I think its a bit early to worry that much.

Spend more time about having fun and dealing with the crossroads shortly before you get there, rather than planning to much and eventually it being all for naught.

Just my thoughts.

The Exchange

I finished running it in 3.5 last year and had to crop it because of an incoming baby.

The party was at about 9th level and had reached the Third Level of the dungeon. But they were working for Falrinth, getting him the elemental gems which I had moved around a bit.

The campaign culminated in Falrinth setting them up for a fall, sitting on the throne with the crown and calling for an Aspect of Zuggtomy to come up.

Falrinth used chain lightning when the party arrived and that got their attention then he died to an awful pair of saves off a phantasmal killer. The party took on the Aspect. One died but the rest won out. It was an epic end.

The key for me was building up the big finish for several sessions before hand and making the party realizing that Falrinth was truely evil. He was giving them minor magicks and towards the end one big clue was the necklace of fireballs that was cursed to explode when the first globe came off. Nice.

Cheers


The leveling in 3.5 is far too fast to keep PCs in the expected levels for some of the old Greyhawk modules. The primary XPs in 3.5 are for defeating challenges compared to 1e's recovering treasure, which is easier to miss or be unrecovered due to things like encumbrance. When you're done with ToEE, the PCs will be way beyond the appropriate levels for the Slaver series. Though frankly, I thought PCs coming out of ToEE in 1e were too high a level for the Slaver modules as written.

I ran PCs through the Slaver series at around 5th level in 3.5, ending up around 8th or 9th. I thought that ran pretty well with most encounters pretty directly converted. I've also run PCs through most of the Giant series. They started at around 10th level in the hill giant stockade and that's gone pretty well too.

What I would recommend is drastically cut down on the XP you give the PCs for killing things, perhaps even just leveling them up when you find it appropriate for the challenges. Alternatively, if you want to give them XPs regularly, figure out how long you want them at their current level and give them a portion of the amount they need to level up after each session.

If you're wedded to getting through ToEE, try to end up with them at 10th level and skip the Slaver series. Go right to the Giants. If you want to run Slavers too, cut down ToEE. Move some of the encounters from the 4th level up to an edited 3rd level (the high priest and such), ditch the silly looking 4th level, and ditch the elemental nodes.


First of all, thanks for all your help!
I have realized too the difference in leveling between 1e and 3.5. Apparently PC's en 1e were expected to fight waves of enemies (ie a certain fight in Descent with about 20 wererats and 2 mind flayers)vs 3e more "elite" encounters (less enemies but significantly harder).

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
The group suffered greatly in the sense of treasure. Much of what they acquired were given in exchange for life saving spells, primarily teleport. I found it pretty unbelieveable that after this incredibly long module that the treasures we wrought were very little. Special treasures were handed out much later in the adventure as a result of the epic quest the characters had taken on.

Noticed that too, my Pc's are way behind the wealth-by-level table. I am planning to compensate for lack of treasure if the PC's rescue Prince Thrommel, likely their rewards will help put them in an adequate amount of wealth. If not I'll increase the treasure for the last higher level encounters in the Temple.

French Wolf wrote:

The campaign culminated in Falrinth setting them up for a fall, sitting on the throne with the crown and calling for an Aspect of Zuggtomy to come up.

Falrinth used chain lightning when the party arrived and that got their attention then he died to an awful pair of saves off a phantasmal killer. The party took on the Aspect. One died but the rest won out. It was an epic end.

I was thinking of making Zuggtmoy in the Temple an Aspect (otherwise my party would die when facing a CR 25 Zuggtmoy :S) in case theay are brave/foolish enough to release her. How though did you make her aspect?

Bill Dunn wrote:

What I would recommend is drastically cut down on the XP you give the PCs for killing things, perhaps even just leveling them up when you find it appropriate for the challenges. Alternatively, if you want to give them XPs regularly, figure out how long you want them at their current level and give them a portion of the amount they need to level up after each session.

If you're wedded to getting through ToEE, try to end up with them at 10th level and skip the Slaver series. Go right to the Giants. If you want to run Slavers too, cut down ToEE. Move some of the encounters from the 4th level up to an edited 3rd level (the high priest and such), ditch the silly looking 4th level, and ditch the elemental nodes.

I already planned on cutting XP rewards, by lowering the CR's of npc's by 1 (a 5th level fighter certainly is not a CR5, expecially when the party takes him out in 2 attacks); on paper it appears to work, so I'll start there; I also plan on reducing the number of enemies per encounter, using EL as a guideline.

And yes, the direction I intended to take my campaign was Temple>Slavers>Giants>Descent>Drow. I already planned some tie-ins/hooks in the Temple to guide them into Slavers (since the plot hooks in the Slavers modules semm troublesome for me). I plan to have the Temple in cooperation with the Slave Lords, selling them "extra
2 prisoners as slaves, with Lareth beign their contact in the Temple, keeping in communication with Edralve (Already foreshadowed the Drow/Lolth a bit, with Lareth having an obsidian spider medallion among his possessions; Edralve would essentially be his "supervisor").
I was thinking also i ncropping the lower Temple levels, I'm thinking of moving the important, named NPC's to the 3rd level, and putting the elemental gems in the hands of the elemental high priests (since those were the onl reasons to go to the elemental nodes).

The Exchange

My Aspect of Zuggtomy was a APL+3 monster gauged from other similar demons in the Monster Manual and other sources so that it would be a tough climax for the party. It ended up CR12.

That was necessary partly because my players are not DnD specialists and they do not powergame at all. It seemed to work out okay.

Essentially I made the Aspect a octopus-like oozing jelly with four/six pseudopods, grab and swallow (which was how they lost a character). The various demonic SR/DR and spell-like abilities came from research.

Cheers

Liberty's Edge

Eduardo Godinez wrote:

First of all, thanks for all your help!

I have realized too the difference in leveling between 1e and 3.5. Apparently PC's en 1e were expected to fight waves of enemies (ie a certain fight in Descent with about 20 wererats and 2 mind flayers)vs 3e more "elite" encounters (less enemies but significantly harder).

Not the way I remember 1e ;)

Mind you back then, we ran a lot...


Various demon lords and archdevils also exist in a "lesser" aspect form, which is around CR 6 - 14 instead of the (greater) aspect's CR 20 - 33. Zuggtmoy's lesser aspect can be found in the web enhancement for FC1 (Fiendish Codex I, Hordes of the Abyss), which is here.

As the lesser aspect is only CR 6, I suggest advancing it carefully to the desired level. Her greater aspect is CR 20 (found in the actual FC1), which is probably more than you want to throw at your players.

... As for waves of enemies, I will never forget my experience as a player in a certain famous 1e dungeon. Three interconnected caves, with a total of 56 trolls. We did survive, but it was a close thing at at the time! :)


Howdid any of you managed to "solve" the dungeon? i.e. desired outcome, how to communicate that to the players. Currently my desired outcome would be for them to get hold of the Orb of Golden Death, the elemental Gems, and destroy them. I think I'll also leave the possibility open for them to fight an aspect of Zuggtmoy. But right now my players don't have a clue what to do and I'm struggling to find a way to convey it to them ,without being too forward. Any ideas?

Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Gaming / D&D / 3.5/d20/OGL / Need Help in Temple of Elemental Evil 3.5 All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in 3.5/d20/OGL