Hi all.
I am writing because I have very real concerns that at times it seems like our DM is playing directly against us rather than with us.
My worry is when comments too the tune of "Yay, I've killed two PCs today" are uttered (as they have in the past). I'm para-phrasing of course.
There has been a PC death in nearly every session and I don't believe that poor tactics can be to blame every time.
Almost every player in the group has lost two characters over the course of three modules. Role-playing is pretty much a non event as there is no real point as our characters to not survive long enough to develop.
How can I express my concerns? I am concerned the response will simply be 'You need better group tactics'. Which I am struggling to accept.
I am personally getting fed up of having to generate new characters. It is rather time consuming and could end up being largely a waste of time.
Does anyone have any advice? And I can't really change group/DM as I do not know anyone else who plays. None of the group seem interested in DMing and I don't have the time.
I'm reluctant to get into too much detail for several reasons (including not being able to completely remember everything)
I do remember losing a wilderness character when we did a bit of play by post because I "rolled a 1" on my survival and got lost so therefore could not escape from pursuers. I used the quotation marks because I never made that roll. It was rolled out of my sight due to the PbP. I'm sure I don't need to explain how annoyed I was at losing a character to a roll I did not make and when in my view there was nothing I could do to prevent his death.
In addition our campaign world has been adjusted so that we cannot buy magic items of any kind.
I have no problem with low magic (and wouldn't mind trying it some time), but I don't feel that the challenges are adjusted for a world where we can't gear up with magic items (opponents still just as strong and in some cases with very high AC that we have a slim chance of hitting).
I've had problems like that before. One of the DMs I play under thinks that everything that we are up against should be impossibly hard.
Whenever we have a good idea or come out on top in any way, he throws something at us that knocks us back down with no real chance of overcoming it.
I talked to him (being a DM myself) and told him to let the players win sometimes (lol).
As for yout DM killing you using a roll you could not see and had no way to prevent. IMOP, that's bogus. Sure, he's the DM, but how can that be fun for players? He should rethink his playstyle if you ask me.
Hi all.
I am writing because I have very real concerns that at times it seems like our DM is playing directly against us rather than with us.
My worry is when comments too the tune of "Yay, I've killed two PCs today" are uttered (as they have in the past). I'm para-phrasing of course.
There has been a PC death in nearly every session and I don't believe that poor tactics can be to blame every time.
Almost every player in the group has lost two characters over the course of three modules. Role-playing is pretty much a non event as there is no real point as our characters to not survive long enough to develop.
How can I express my concerns? I am concerned the response will simply be 'You need better group tactics'. Which I am struggling to accept.
I am personally getting fed up of having to generate new characters. It is rather time consuming and could end up being largely a waste of time.
Does anyone have any advice? And I can't really change group/DM as I do not know anyone else who plays. None of the group seem interested in DMing and I don't have the time.
It could be a number of issues.
As for the RP does your DM go out of his way to shut it down or does he just not initiate it? I say this because I allow my players to RP, but I don't force it on them. I will introduce a named NPC, and if they talk to him they do, but if not then they don't.I make fun of my players too when bad things happen, but it is normally in character. If I say anything out of character they know I am joking. My old DM really made fun of us though, even though he was not against us. That was just his DM'ing personna.
We need an example of some combats to know if the DM is getting carried away.
I have not read past the first post, so someone will probably have requested it already. In any event after my players, especially new ones make bad tactical choices I normally tell them why it is a bad idea. I also tell them about how a feat can affect their character build.
I think he should be working to improve you guys as players. <--My personal opinion
The best way to approach this concern is at the very outset, sit down and discuss playing styles, favorite house rules, and any other issues that either the DM or player have had with past groups. This will eliminate 90% or more the potential issues, and insure that the lines of communication are open from the very start.
I'm reluctant to get into too much detail for several reasons (including not being able to completely remember everything)
I do remember losing a wilderness character when we did a bit of play by post because I "rolled a 1" on my survival and got lost so therefore could not escape from pursuers. I used the quotation marks because I never made that roll. It was rolled out of my sight due to the PbP. I'm sure I don't need to explain how annoyed I was at losing a character to a roll I did not make and when in my view there was nothing I could do to prevent his death.
In addition our campaign world has been adjusted so that we cannot buy magic items of any kind.
I have no problem with low magic (and wouldn't mind trying it some time), but I don't feel that the challenges are adjusted for a world where we can't gear up with magic items (opponents still just as strong and in some cases with very high AC that we have a slim chance of hitting).
In PBP he should be posting the results online using an online dice roller. Anyone can say they rolled the dice.
We need an example of some combats to know if the DM is getting carried away.
I disagree - we don't actually need an example. Player incompetence is not an excuse to slaughter your players on this scale, unless by 3 adventures the OP means 12 levels of play.
Player incompetence should result in the DM toning things back - sure if there really is player incompetence then it should remain a pretty tough game. Maybe an average of 1 player death per level gained by the group. That helps them learn - even thats a little high (I've set it about there in the past and the players definitely saw the game as lethal) 2 every 3 levels is probably better.
There can be some mitigating circumstances such as
- If the adventure is called 'Tomb of Horrors' or any derivative on that title then the DM is obliged to try and kill as many characters as fast as possible.
- If its an AP maybe the AP is just to hard for the players but once this is recognized the DM will have to start toning things back.
- The player group expressly asks the DM to turn things up to 11. Really hard combats are the focus of the game and your character really does not need a name.
Now it should be noted that I believe in a Gygaxian style of DMing where the DM does his thing and makes his adventures while ignoring, for the most part, what his players can do. But one of the benefits of the modern versions of the game is that you get some indicator of how tough a combat is expected to be. If your players are getting killed to quickly you adjust that down a tad, if they don't seem to be challenged adjust that up until you get to some kind of comfortable level of lethality.
In the end every DM should strive for a certain level of Lethality. Incompetent players should probably be on the high end of what is acceptable to the group because it will help them become better players.
After that its really a group style issue. In depth role players with characters that have deep interlocking relationships with other characters and NPCs should have low lethality rates - for example if on game night you watch a 25 minute scene where two players are role playing a scene where one of their characters is pregnant with the baby of another character and she has just caught the father of her child in the sack with one of the tavern wenches (happened in a game I was in)...then you want really low lethality rates.
If, on the other hand, your players mainly show up for exciting combats then your going to want to keep the lethality rate reasonably high - they need to believe they can loose in order to get the full euphoric effect of a hard victory.
We need an example of some combats to know if the DM is getting carried away.I disagree - we don't actually need an example. Player incompetence is not an excuse to slaughter your players on this scale, unless by 3 adventures the OP means 12 levels of play.
Player incompetence should result in the DM toning things back - sure if there really is player incompetence then it should remain a pretty tough game. Maybe an average of 1 player death per level gained by the group. That helps them learn - even thats a little high (I've set it about there in the past and the players definitely saw the game as lethal) 2 every 3 levels is probably better.
There can be some mitigating circumstances such as
- If the adventure is called 'Tomb of Horrors' or any derivative on that title then the DM is obliged to try and kill as many characters as fast as possible.
- If its an AP maybe the AP is just to hard for the players but once this is recognized the DM will have to start toning things back.
- The player group expressly asks the DM to turn things up to 11. Really hard combats are the focus of the game and your character really does not need a name.
Now it should be noted that I believe in a Gygaxian style of DMing where the DM does his thing and makes his adventures while ignoring, for the most part, what his players can do. But one of the benefits of the modern versions of the game is that you get some indicator of how tough a combat is expected to be. If your players are getting killed to quickly you adjust that down a tad, if they don't seem to be challenged adjust that up until you get to some kind of comfortable level of lethality.
In the end every DM should strive for a certain level of Lethality. Incompetent players should probably be on the high end of what is acceptable to the group because it will help them become better players.
After that its really a group style issue. In depth role players with characters that have deep interlocking...
Of course we need an example, I like stories.
I think the player has more of an issue with the DM making fun of them than he does the actual death. You can kill players left and right if done in style. <---Not all the time, but style gets you a lot of leeway sometimes.
Without the DM here to defend himself a retelling of a battle is the next best thing. Every time a DM or player has complained, and the other side showed up the story always looks different. I am not saying the OP does not have a valid complaint, but I can't really advise without more info. Most importantly I like a good story. :)
@ the OP:If you don't want to tell me a story then I think you need to talk to the DM. He may be evil like my first DM(3.5), and not care, but at least you can try.
Edit: If he says you guys have bad tactics then he should help you out by teaching you tactics.
A '1' is not an automatic fail or fumble on a skill roll, your character shouldn't automatically die from such and in any event, if pursued it should be a series of checks of your perception, stealth and survival to escape against their perception and survival to find you.
I suggest just levelling with your DM and say:
"Look, I appreciate the effort you put into running this game, but it's no fun. I enjoy role-play, and when your character dies as often as they do in this game that's just impossible, and it seems that no matter what we do, there will be deaths. No offence, I'm not attributing blame, but I don't think your DMing style and my playing style are working. As such, I'm on the edge of quitting. I'd rather talk to you before walking to see if we can work this out before I do, though."
That lays it out nice and honestly, and if he tells you where to go you know that this DM is a lost cause. if he acts surprised and asks you what you think he's doing wrong, you can have a long talk on the subject and hopefully his DMing style will change a little.
A '1' is not an automatic fail or fumble on a skill roll, your character shouldn't automatically die from such and in any event, if pursued it should be a series of checks of your perception, stealth and survival to escape against their perception and survival to find you.
I suggest just levelling with your DM and say:
"Look, I appreciate the effort you put into running this game, but it's no fun. I enjoy role-play, and when your character dies as often as they do in this game that's just impossible, and it seems that no matter what we do, there will be deaths. No offence, I'm not attributing blame, but I don't think your DMing style and my playing style are working. As such, I'm on the edge of quitting. I'd rather talk to you before walking to see if we can work this out before I do, though."
That lays it out nice and honestly, and if he tells you where to go you know that this DM is a lost cause. if he acts surprised and asks you what you think he's doing wrong, you can have a long talk on the subject and hopefully his DMing style will change a little.
+1
honestly that sounds like the best advice your gonna get.Mine would have been to try and allow someone else to GM so maybe the guy can learn. DM's need learning curves too but if he's an experianced screen jockey then he's just being mean and that needs to be addressed.