Invisible creatures usually get to treat their opponents as flat-footed, unless said opponents have uncanny dodge. Are opponents treated any differently than normal -- i.e., are they considered "flat-footed" or lose DEX bonus unless they have uncanny dodge -- for purposes of making Reflex saves against spells cast by invisible casters?
All references I have found towards being "flat-footed" only refer to loss of Dex on AC.
However, as a house rule, I don't think it would be overly unreasonable to tack on Reflex saves to the "flat-footed" condition.
If the spells aren't using Silent Spell, they will know someone is casting. They should be allowed a normal reflex save, just my 2 cp.
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If the spells aren't using Silent Spell, they will know someone is casting. They should be allowed a normal reflex save, just my 2 cp.
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And even beyond silent spell, if the spell appears it should have a save.
A fireball is still a fireball.
The invisibility is more for the fact that they can't see the attack coming at all.
Would you penalize them if it was a slow spell?
Stinking cloud?
No?
Then no you don't penalize them on reflex saves either.
Think about it -- Reflex saves are specifically for when you are surprised by what's about to happen. Traps are a wonderful example of this -- obviously if you knew the trap was there you wouldn't have set it off -- but you did, so you rely on your reflexes to get you out of the way.
Reflexes are the things you don't think about -- it's what the body does automatically to try and protect itself.
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Moreover, there are times when realism must, to a certain degree, but squelched for balance. if I drop a 20' radius ball of fire centered on your shoes, how are you going to get away from it? Especially since a save doesn't actually move you. How about when a fireball is dropped into a 10' by 10' room? No one is gonna get away from that sucker. Honestly, I just try not to think about these things. :)
That being said, a house rule giving a penalty to reflex saves when flat-footed wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, so long as I knew about it ahead of time. If it was sprung on me in the middle of a fight with no forewarning though, I'd be cross.
Invisible creatures usually get to treat their opponents as flat-footed, unless said opponents have uncanny dodge. Are opponents treated any differently than normal -- i.e., are they considered "flat-footed" or lose DEX bonus unless they have uncanny dodge -- for purposes of making Reflex saves against spells cast by invisible casters?
Flat footed is a loss of dex bonus to ac. It is not a loss of dex bonus to anything else, including Reflex saves. Wizards are already powerful enough, they DON"T need any more help denying people saves.
Yeah. I was leaning in the direction of "normal Reflex saves" anyways, but the chorus of agreement solidified my decision. Thanks!