Direction is for line of sight.
Line of sight determines cover.
Perception applies to all senses, but distance still factors into all perception checks.
50ft away, +10 to stealth check.
If you are scouting you have a reason to stealth beacause you are going ahead to check for enemies (campfire in distance, hallway up ahead, dangerous forest, ect.)
In order to use stealth you need a reason to, saying that its a dangerous world therefor all creatures use stealth all the time is a cop out arguement to me. A rogue doesn't use stealth all the time, even if he is in the woods, only when he is scouting.
I think it is really funny how the counter arguement for why I stealthy manuever won't work is because the creatures are going to stealth, when those same people argued that stealth is improbable and would never work.
That is manipulating the rules to make you right if I ever saw it.
and FATR you are not even giving a counter that is worth responding to, but thanks for the laugh.
Realistically almost no monster stealth's all day long. Most of them only do it when they are hunting are feel they are in danger. Now if you are in enemy HQ, which happens to be a cave they may be stealthed or they may be out in the open to show that there are guards as a deterrent to would-be trespassers. They boss guy might also use a mix of the two ideas. A show of force and other mooks hiding in the shadows for those that get to far into the dungeon.
Realistically almost no monster stealth's all day long. Most of them only do it when they are hunting are feel they are in danger. Now if you are in enemy HQ, which happens to be a cave they may be stealthed or they may be out in the open to show that there are guards as a deterrent to would-be trespassers. They boss guy might also use a mix of the two ideas. A show of force and other mooks hiding in the shadows for those that get to far into the dungeon.
+1
yes i agree there are circumstances that scouting is either going to need some magic help (casters) or maybe even a brute force distraction (fighters)
but to say that I would need some kind of a GM fiat to make it work ever because monsters are always sneaking in the woods because of dangerous adventurers?
that sounds like a fiat to me.
Although it is called 'sneak attack', you do not have to be actually sneaking to use it, and indeed a great many rogue tactics involve creating situations such as flanking, feinting or using certain items (and abilities) to give sneak attack bonus damage. Any time a foe cannot employ (is denied) their dexterity bonus you can sneak attack them. Flat-footed is just a bonus a fast (high init) Rogue can enjoy, and I've seen plenty of builds that ignore Imp. Init in lieu of other feats.
Dex is denied through a variety of things other than simply being flat footed, such as the blinded, cowering, helpless, paralysed, stunned and unconscious conditions (take note monks, team up with the Rogue to really put the hurting on that bad guy!) Of common spell misconceptions, Entangles does not remove dex bonus, nor does Grease, but more powerful ones such as Hold Person, Sepia Snake Sigil and the harsher effects of ones like Dictum will. Sleep is also a candidate for obvious reasons (though the spell itself does not state slept targets are denied their dex bonus most GMs take it as a given...)
not sure if this clears up a misunderstanding some seem to have from what I've read, or if this aspect had been ignored for the time being in lieu of the stealth/counter-stealth/flat-footed argument.
Hold person is really gross for that scenario as you can coup de grace them and they have a dex of 0.
Although it is called 'sneak attack', you do not have to be actually sneaking to use it, and indeed a great many rogue tactics involve creating situations such as flanking, feinting or using certain items (and abilities) to give sneak attack bonus damage. Any time a foe cannot employ (is denied) their dexterity bonus you can sneak attack them. Flat-footed is just a bonus a fast (high init) Rogue can enjoy, and I've seen plenty of builds that ignore Imp. Init in lieu of other feats.
Dex is denied through a variety of things other than simply being flat footed, such as the blinded, cowering, helpless, paralysed, stunned and unconscious conditions (take note monks, team up with the Rogue to really put the hurting on that bad guy!) Of common spell misconceptions, Entangles does not remove dex bonus, nor does Grease, but more powerful ones such as Hold Person, Sepia Snake Sigil and the harsher effects of ones like Dictum will. Sleep is also a candidate for obvious reasons (though the spell itself does not state slept targets are denied their dex bonus most GMs take it as a given...)
not sure if this clears up a misunderstanding some seem to have from what I've read, or if this aspect had been ignored for the time being
in lieu of the stealth/counter-stealth/flat-footed argument.
Not to mention it even says under Blindsense (not blindsight) that if they cannot use vision to percieve you that they are flat footed.
Plus if you take dastardly finish (feat) at higher levels and you have a monk in your party?
ouch burn!
Upon reading Blindsense it appears to be a fairly useless ability (in regard to rogues).
The way it is worded it allows you to be alerted to the presence of a creature within the radius and even to locate it, however, non-visible creatures still get all the bonuses (including, in this case, sneak attack damage due to them being denied their Dex modifier). Non-visable would include in this instance creatures that are hidden due to concealment.
Are there non-idiotic ways for the rogue to get stunning attacks himself? I figure there are enough people who routinely play rogues here that someone could tell me if there was. (this is not to say that relying on someone else in the party to be able to do it is idiotic).
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Not sure who all does it, but if your GM happens to be one of the ones that allows material from the 3X Era into his PF sessions then Blindsight/Blindsense is rendered worthless thanks to the Darkstalker feat. My rogue has it and its saved his butt quite a few times. Not to mention it works against any supernatural senses - Tremorsense, Blindsight, Blindsense, Lifesight (GM Discretion), Scent, etc.
Upon reading Blindsense it appears to be a fairly useless ability (in regard to rogues).
The way it is worded it allows you to be alerted to the presence of a creature within the radius and even to locate it, however, non-visible creatures still get all the bonuses (including, in this case, sneak attack damage due to them being denied their Dex modifier). Non-visable would include in this instance creatures that are hidden due to concealment.
Look at it this way. Rogue sneaks up on Dire bat guarding her nest. The dire bat becomes aware of the rogue getting closer than she's comfortable with. Initiative is rolled.
If the bat wins, it flies to the rogue in order to attack (since it knows exactly what square he's in) If no cover or concealment exists in between the bats new square and the rogue (likely since its now right next to the rogue) the rogue is spotted automatically. Even if there's not, the bat can attack into the rogues square and suck up the 50% miss chance.
When the rogues turn comes around, he attacks the bat... it is NOT a sneak attack. The rogue is NOT invisible and the bat is not flat footed. It is impossible to stealth while fighting and the second the rogue tries to stab the bat that's what he's doing,and by the raw, hiding does not let you make a sneak attack anyway. The bat has already acted on its turn in the initiative round and is not flat footed.
If the rogue wins initiative, he can sneak attack the bat... this is also the exact same thing that would happen if the rogue had walked into the room whistling dixie rather than stealthing.
Look at it this way. Rogue sneaks up on Dire bat guarding her nest. The dire bat becomes aware of the rogue getting closer than she's comfortable with. Initiative is rolled.
If the bat wins, it flies to the rogue in order to attack (since it knows exactly what square he's in) If no cover or concealment exists in between the bats new square and the rogue (likely since its now right next to the rogue) the rogue is spotted automatically. Even if there's not, the bat can attack into the rogues square and suck up the 50% miss chance.
When the rogues turn comes around, he attacks the bat... it is NOT a sneak attack. The rogue is NOT invisible and the bat is not flat footed. It is impossible to stealth while fighting and the second the rogue tries to stab the bat that's what he's doing,and by the raw, hiding does not let you make a sneak attack anyway. The bat has already acted on its turn in the initiative round and is not flat footed.
If the rogue wins initiative, he can sneak attack the bat... this is also the exact same thing that would happen if the rogue had walked into the room whistling dixie rather than stealthing.
Despite the fact that a rogue is somehow sneaking up to the bat without any concealment or sneak attack, if the bat cannot visibly see the rogue he still gets sneak attack.
It specifically says under the ability that if they cannot visibly see the target they are still denied they're dexterity to AC.
Whether the bat can see the rogue is another story but your example doesn't mean much for whether or not the rogue is visible, which is what blindsense references.
the ability is definitely not useless, but on any occasion the bat cannot visibly see the rogue (full cover behind a tree, full concealment due to some other means such as in the dark with dark vision) the rogue could attack for sneak attack.
If the bat is a blind creature that depends upon blindsense to hunt, then it is SOL on the sneak attack.
Although your point contains some validity with initiative still being a contributing factor.
Upon reading Blindsense it appears to be a fairly useless ability (in regard to rogues).
The way it is worded it allows you to be alerted to the presence of a creature within the radius and even to locate it, however, non-visible creatures still get all the bonuses (including, in this case, sneak attack damage due to them being denied their Dex modifier). Non-visable would include in this instance creatures that are hidden due to concealment.
Are there non-idiotic ways for the rogue to get stunning attacks himself? I figure there are enough people who routinely play rogues here that someone could tell me if there was. (this is not to say that relying on someone else in the party to be able to do it is idiotic).
Well a 8th level rogue (earliest I am pretty sure) can go for the weapon focus (rogue talent), shatter defenses (3rd level feat), then at 8th using his combat trick (only one unless he takes the swashbuckler archetype) to gain shatter defenses which makes all hindered foes lose their dexterity. that can be pretty staggering (pun intended).
that is 8th level though, right around the get awesome stage for rogues.
If you're looking for a niche, then yes, a rogue probably isn't optimized, no regardless of what area you're looking to specialize. However, I would caution you on the perils of overspecializing and one-trick-ponies.
Rogues have a lot of versatility, and they can get it without the aid of magic. You might cast a bard, cleric, and inquisitor, an alchemist, or any other number of classes as an ideal generalist character, but the rogue is the only one of them who can do his thang within an antimagic field. And I know, you don't often run into entire dungeons where magic doesn't function, but my point is that the spells and the buffs that make other generalist characters so versatile have a plethora of countermeasures to go along with them. A rogue, on the other hand... Well, I think you're going to be hard pressed to take away his skill points and rogue tricks, and even though sneak attack may not match a meteor swarm for raw damage, it's can be applied in many, many more situations.
If you're looking for a niche, then yes, a rogue probably isn't optimized, no regardless of what area you're looking to specialize. However, I would caution you on the perils of overspecializing and one-trick-ponies.
the rogue is the only one of them who can do his thang within an antimagic field.
Why does this matter? Is it really that often an occurrence that you need to have someone in your party that can be marginally effective in the field along with your fighter?
And I know, you don't often run into entire dungeons where magic doesn't function, but my point is that the spells and the buffs that make other generalist characters so versatile have a plethora of countermeasures to go along with them.
As opposed to the things that can mess with a rogue, like scent, blindsight, blindsense , plants, constructs, swarms, flying, putting your back to a wall, narrow corridors, light spells, smoke, darkness, blur, the requirement that you move to flank but then can't make a full attack...
A rogue, on the other hand... Well, I think you're going to be hard pressed to take away his skill points and rogue tricks, and even though sneak attack may not match a meteor swarm for raw damage, it's can be applied in many, many more situations.
a meteor swarm works whenever the opponent isn;t immune to fire damage. A lot of things have to happen for a sneak attack to work. If you play by the rules as they are sneak attack is MUCH harder to get than people seem to realize.
I removed a post that was taking things too personally. Don't post angry, folks.
Can anyone point to the rules that allow a sneak attack from stealth?
By everything i see in the raw, the only mechanism by which stealth can gain you a sneak attack is if it enables the rogue to go close enough to start the fight with an unaware opponent, enabling him to sneak attack his flat footed opponent in the surprise round. Once the fight has begun and the opponent has acted the opponent is not flat footed whether or not they can see the rogue.
Can anyone find a rule that says perception works better in one direction than another? (remember, perception is now hearing as well as looking)
I don't think there is anything in the RAW that specifically says this is possible, that is to say that there is nothing that denotes a successful Stealth check denies your opponent his Dex modifier.
However, I would think that many people as though it would and believe it to be RAI.
Looking at the forum there are many posts related to it.
Here is some of what I found:
This is the closest explanation concerning RAW
"Entropi wrote:
The point of this is; where in the rules does it say that you can make a sneak attack while hidden?
Good point. All I've found so far is:
"Sometimes you can't use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC."
That's from the Combat chapter."
"Proposed new Sneak Attack while Unobserved rule wrote:
If you begin an attack action while you are Unobserved, meaning you are already Invisible or Stealthed before you begin this attack, then your opponent is denied his DEX bonus to his Armor Class and you can Sneak Attack this opponent. Your first attack (if you have more than one) will reveal you to this opponent, automatically removing your Invisibility or Stealth benefits (this is not true of Improved Invisibility) which means that only your first attack gets the benefits of being Invisible or Stealthed; subsequent attacks in this round are treated as normal attacks."
The links are provided in case you would like to check/post on those posts rather than here. Also, to show that i'm not taking things out of context.
Can anyone find a rule that says perception works better in one direction than another? (remember, perception is now hearing as well as looking)
See now this is where it gets complicated.
It doesnt technically work better in any direction, yet cover gives you bonuses and full cover and concealment by raw means they cant percieve you visibly.
The problem is they do not distinguish very well between visibly percieving and percieving through sound.
It is one of the reasons (althought I like that it is combined in the sense that it relieves me of spending ranks in two skills) why I think combining all the senses into one sense is confusing.
This is one of the main reasons why doing anything with perception is muddy in the game because if I can hear someone with a 35 check on perception (great roll) but I can't see them do I know where they are or not? if they are in a cloud of smoke can I pinpoint the location? if I do because I heard them does that mean I am not flatfooted even though I cant react to their movements via visibility? do I need to see them visibly to react or can i merely hear the action to react?
all very fuzzy.
very very valid point BNW.
Can anyone point to the rules that allow a sneak attack from stealth?
By everything i see in the raw, the only mechanism by which stealth can gain you a sneak attack is if it enables the rogue to go close enough to start the fight with an unaware opponent, enabling him to sneak attack his flat footed opponent in the surprise round. Once the fight has begun and the opponent has acted the opponent is not flat footed whether or not they can see the rogue.
Enabling you to get into a position to sneak attack is another use of Stealth in combat, as is disengaging. Simply being unattackable until you yourself choose to allows you to step back and assess the battlefield a bit, work a spring-attack flanking chain, other tricks, and tactics etc.
Can anyone find a rule that says perception works better in one direction than another? (remember, perception is now hearing as well as looking)
Not so much a direct rule 'per se', but trying to perceive amid large distractions (i.e. combat, source of loud noise, inclement weather) incurs DC increasers. Ergo, the fighter in melee with the opponent forms sufficient enough a distraction to keep attention focussed enough on him that the DC to spot the Rogue re-/sneaking is slightly higher than normal. You could argue the 'reason' for this is because you are more concerned with the big sword flashing at your face than someone skulking around a small distance behind you and so aren't looking in his direction at the time.
Enabling you to get into a position to sneak attack is another use of Stealth in combat, as is disengaging. Simply being unattackable until you yourself choose to allows you to step back and assess the battlefield a bit, work a spring-attack flanking chain, other tricks, and tactics etc.
As a solo tactic this isn't going to work for very long. As a group action, when you waste a round making a standard action to bluff, and then your move action to move and hide that's a round you're not damaging. When you reappear flanking you're probably only going to get 1 attack... it would have been easier and more effective just to move/tumble to a spot you can flank and then get a full attack the next round
People keep insisting that the hit and move is the intelligent way to play a rogue but the numbers just don't bear that out. Yes it is cool and yes it is thematic but it just doesn't actually WORK by the game mechanics.
Not so much a direct rule 'per se', but trying to perceive amid large distractions (i.e. combat, source of loud noise, inclement weather) incurs DC increasers.
Right, but its not directional its situational. In combat, penalties or not, you are being observed. You can apply a -20 modifier if you want, it doesn't matter if you're "behind" someone or in front of them, they're still observing you.
All classes are situational, all classes are subject to a lot of awkward 'what ifs', and all classes are simply a matter of preference.
Some of them are arguably 'better' at certain stages (ie I think rogues suffer at low levels) however the game isn't about being 'better' than everyone at the table - in fact its not even always about being 'as good'.
Campaigns are also significantly different, and will allow some classes to shine more than others, so once again, we dont have a good middle ground on which to compare.
Its a non argument really.
Whe can grind a bunch of math on hypitheticals, but that doesn't always bear out on game day when umpteen variables come into play.
So nothing in life would choose to be as sneaky as possible at all times?
I came second place in an Army Military Skills Challenge in the 'stealth' escape and evasion exercise. I'm just that much of a sneaky slippery guy the DS only caught me because they had NVG's at the final checkpoint and the vegetation was very sparse... I still got within meters.
I reckon I'd lool like a right whackjob using my great stealth skills walking my kid to school or going down the shop to buy a newspaper.
How would a bunch of Bugbears be stealthily cleaning weapons, stealthily having a few pints of beer while roasting a dwarf on an open fire or having a party, just how disciplined do you consider these creatures?
Hobgobs are tactically smart, and would have well placed sentries and good defensive measures - but back in a large group would be relying on safety in numbers and relax.
So nothing in life would choose to be as sneaky as possible at all times?I came second place in an Army Military Skills Challenge in the 'stealth' escape and evasion exercise. I'm just that much of a sneaky slippery guy the DS only caught me because they had NVG's at the final checkpoint and the vegetation was very sparse... I still got within meters.
I reckon I'd lool like a right whackjob using my great stealth skills walking my kid to school or going down the shop to buy a newspaper.
How would a bunch of Bugbears be stealthily cleaning weapons, stealthily having a few pints of beer while roasting a dwarf on an open fire or having a party, just how disciplined do you consider these creatures?
Hobgobs are tactically smart, and would have well placed sentries and good defensive measures - but back in a large group would be relying on safety in numbers and relax.
+1
How would a bunch of Bugbears be stealthily cleaning weapons, stealthily having a few pints of beer while roasting a dwarf on an open fire or having a party, just how disciplined do you consider these creatures?
The problem isn't that you'll never run into non stealthing bugbears. the problem with scouting out ahead of the party is that unless the DM is playing powder puff you will quite frequently run into stealthing bugbears,snakes, large cats, wolves etc. Its not a matter of a small group of creatures being the achilies heel for the rogue, its that everything and its brother either has rogue level stealth, rogue level perception, stealth negating abilities. No "intelligent" play is going to negate that.
Look at it like making a free throw in basketball. Even if its easy , its still hard to do 4,5,6 7 times in a row.
The problem isn't that you'll never run into non stealthing bugbears.
But why on Earth would they be perpetually in stealth unless they were sentries? They couldn't even do so much as go to the toilet. They could never sleep, they couldnt ever bathe, in fact they couldn't do much - ever- except sit there motionless. This takes significant discipline and planning to maintain.
They never go raiding? They never initiate a melee? (ie attack a village) how could any of this be possibly true? Both of these would find almost all the Bugbears out in the open.
Large cats do not stealth 24/7 either. Go and watch a few National Geograpic documentaries. Lions stealth for a while when they go off in search of prey, and then once they have managed a kill they just go back to lazing around sunbaking in the open and rolling around in the grass - they are apex predators, as are most great cats - they hunt a couple of times a week maximum. This means theres more than a 90% chance the lazy critters are just sitting about doing bubkis for all the world to see.
Stealthing about is a SLOW process and very mentally taxing, and really only used in the human or broader animal kingdom when there is a purpose, either to hunt, or for short term evasion.
Large cats do not stealth 24/7 either. Go and watch a few National Geograpic documentaries. Lions stealth for a while when they go off in search of prey, and then once they have managed a kill they just go back to lazing around sunbaking in the open and rolling around in the grass - they are apex predators, as are most great cats - they hunt a couple of times a week maximum. This means theres more than a 90% chance the lazy critters are just sitting about doing bubkis for all the world to see.
True, and if the Large cat stealthing gets caught it usually runs away to a stealth another day.
I'm going to make one more effort to clear up this straw man.
The problem isn't that you'll never run into non stealthing bugbears.
But why on Earth would they be perpetually in stealth
I am not saying they will be perpetually stealthed. No one is saying they will be perpetually stealthed. Its a gross misrepresentation of the point.
No one is saying that creatures with high stealth scores will be stealthing 24/7. We are saying that they will be stealthed often enough to be problematic for the tactic of scouting.
They couldn't even do so much as go to the toilet. They could never sleep, they couldnt ever bathe, in fact they couldn't do much - ever- except sit there motionless. This takes significant discipline and planning to maintain.
If the lions are busy playing with their cubs or sunbathing 500 feet away or wolves are running caribou down on the open taiga that's not an encounter: that's scenery. For an encounter (planned or random) there has to be some conflict that needs resolving (be it with a violent resolution or otherwise) The game is built around 4 or so encounters per day, usually with 1 or 2 random encounters is you're just going from point A to point B.
-You do not need to be motionless to stealth. You just need to go half speed. A hunting wolf, tiger, or snake certainly isn't moving as fast as it can. It is remaining quiet (so as to not alert predators or prey) and on the lookout for things trying to remain quiet ( such as food and bigger predators)
There will be times when the monsters catch the PC's sleeping. There will be times when the PC's catch monsters sleeping. Most of the times you run into a monster though you're not that lucky. Its roughly as prepared for you as you are for them, and with creatures with high stealth scores that means they're hiding just like you are.
They never go raiding? They never initiate a melee? (ie attack a village) how could any of this be possibly true? Both of these would find almost all the Bugbears out in the open.
Of course they go raiding. They spend a long amount of time going through the woods quietly followed by short bursts of killing. In between they spend a large amount of time in villages going to the bathroom, fixing their houses, repairing weapons mating etc.. this however is not usually how adventurers get to deal with them, just like most monsters don't get to deal with the PC's while they're drinking in the tavern dividing up the loot because PC's behave differently in dangerous environments and so do the NPC's.
Large cats do not stealth 24/7 either. Go and watch a few National Geograpic documentaries. Lions stealth for a while when they go off in search of prey, and then once they have managed a kill they just go back to lazing around sunbaking in the open and rolling around in the grass - they are apex predators, as are most great cats - they hunt a couple of times a week maximum.
They're apex predators in our world. In a D&D world there are plenty of things that find lions easy prey. Environment affects behavior, which is why wolves are far less dangerous in north america than say, india.
So BNW in essence all you are doing is agreeing with me that not all creatures who have stealth would spend their entire time actually stealthed, and that there are numerous ways that they might be sitting about non-stealthed.
Also, with the non stealthed Lion, well it may well be an encounter - if the party is off hunting Lions.
I dont subscribe to the 4xDay myth either, its a holdover from 3.5 - and has no place in any PF game I have been a part of (and good riddance to it too) and just leads to boring play.
I'm going to make one more effort to clear up this straw man.
This is not a strawman because in order for things to be stealthing they need to know you are coming.
The reason we say they cant be on perpetual stealth is because in order for your premise to even be plausible is that they always have to be.
Also, when you start with a statement like this it leads directly to arguments and detracts from actual discussion.
No one is saying that creatures with high stealth scores will be stealthing 24/7. We are saying that they will be stealthed often enough to be problematic for the tactic of scouting.
So not perpetually just whenever the DM wants to say "no more scouting rogue because I said so".
They (the enemy) doesnt always know when the scout is coming because they have no ability to percieve or evidence to support until the said scout could have already percieved them.
very paranoid lions and bug bears.
-You do not need to be motionless to stealth. You just need to go half speed. A hunting wolf, tiger, or snake certainly isn't moving as fast as it can. It is remaining quiet (so as to not alert predators or prey) and on the lookout for things trying to remain quiet ( such as food and bigger predators)
you miss the point of what shifty is trying to say. Stealthing isnt easy and it requires diligence, that is why it is a skill check and not just a feat or a class ability. Skill checks require effort. Effort means taxing and difficult. It is no different to jog a mile than it is to stealh for half a mile, the muscles you exasperate while trying to relieve pressure from your steps and or the mental exhaustion from attempting this task for extend time is the same thing that requires constitution checks.
There will be times when the monsters catch the PC's sleeping. There will be times when the PC's catch monsters sleeping. Most of the times you run into a monster though you're not that lucky. Its roughly as prepared for you as you are for them, and with creatures with high stealth scores that means they're hiding just like you are.
you cant block an attack you dont know is coming can you?
so why can you stealth against a creature you dont know is there?
that is the same as saying "I always have my shield up and my sword ready to fight so I never have to roll initiative because I am not surprised".
Of course they go raiding. They spend a long amount of time going through the woods quietly followed by short bursts of killing. In between they spend a large amount of time in villages going to the bathroom, fixing their houses, repairing weapons mating etc.. this however is not usually how adventurers get to deal with them, just like most monsters don't get to deal with the PC's while they're drinking in the tavern dividing up the loot because PC's behave differently in dangerous environments and so do the NPC's.
this is all your opinion and how you run your game, not the absolute truth for the world. What you call playing smart someone else would call unrealistic and very DM fiat to prepare themselves always for the PC's.
The bug bears are welcome to scout or hunt wherever they so choose as long as they have a reason. Saying they have a reason because adventurers exist is not a good reason.
You are in their woods and resting at a camp yourself and they see the fire so one investigates to see if its not ogres (which they have problems with). Now thats a reason, its plausible, it makes sense, and it happens when the PC's have every right to be snuck up on.
The looney toon image of two stealthy people sneaking around each other is just not flying for me or shifty.
They're apex predators in our world. In a D&D world there are plenty of things that find lions easy prey. Environment affects behavior, which is why wolves are far less dangerous in north america than say, india
...
you are saying discount world experiences because DnD world is different and then you use india as a justification for your argument?
That if anyone is going to buy it needs some strong justification.
also, if you wish to base all your worlds on India that is fine, but again that is your world and not necessarily everyone else's.
I also agree with shifty on the encounters. Most AP's by paizo totally violate the 4 per day rule.
So BNW in essence all you are doing is agreeing with me that not all creatures who have stealth would spend their entire time actually stealthed and that there are numerous ways that they might be sitting about non-stealthed.
Right. But trying to point out that it still doesn't make scouting a viable tactic (which is how it came up).
Also, with the non stealthed Lion, well it may well be an encounter - if the party is off hunting Lions.
In which case the rogue would have to be nuts to go out ahead of the party.
I dont subscribe to the 4xDay myth either, its a holdover from 3.5 - and has no place in any PF game I have been a part of (and good riddance to it too) and just leads to boring play.
If you don't do roughly that many encounters you severely overpower the Wizards , clerics, and any class with a limited number of ability per day. If you routinely only have 1-2 encounters per day the wizards know they can begin launching with the orbital nukes every encounter.
In which case the rogue would have to be nuts to go out ahead of the party.
That's his/her job, as i is the job of the Ranger. Its perilous, but they are the early warning for the party.
They SHOULD be up there, scouting and stealthing, trying to identify dangerous obstacles and signs of enemy passage.Look at military formations on the move, it involves 'scouts'. Always.
The idea being that the Scouts spot the enemy before the enemy spots them, OR that the Scout triggers the ambush - better one dude getting pined down than the whole squad.
If you don't do roughly that many encounters you severely overpower the Wizards , clerics, and any class with a limited number of ability per day. If you routinely only have 1-2 encounters per day the wizards know they can begin launching with the orbital nukes every encounter
Not true. The whole point is the party shouldn't know how many encounters they are going to hit, unless they have taken a lot of steps to anticipate said encounters (which is not always possible).
If they don't know if they are going to be on once of ten times, it results in people needing to pace themselves. If they know 'ok tomorrow I will have four encounters' the same pacing doesn't apply.
Im happy to have one, I'm also happy to throw them into hour upon hour of gruelling and continuous conflicts - such as warfare in a city being overrun.
The point is they shouldn't be able to metagame away and know they have four and four only.
I still maintain that the 4xDay is also not to be found in PF, Its 3.5, and PF isn't 3.5
That's his/her job, as i is the job of the Ranger. Its perilous, but they are the early warning for the party.
They SHOULD be up there, scouting and stealthing, trying to identify dangerous obstacles and signs of enemy passage. Look at military formations on the move, it involves 'scouts'. Always.
What works IRL and what works in D&D/pathfinder aren't always the same. IRL you do not have someone that can take a bullet to the head a sword to the gut and have a lion chew on him and still be perfectly fine. In D&D you do. IRL everyone is equally mortal before a bullet to the head. . In D&D they are not.
Lets say we have the near ideal lion hunting scenario. You have a lone male lion walking around in an open spot on the savana. You send the rogue ahead sneaking. If a lion is a reasonable challenge for your party you have slightly better than a 50 50 chance of getting within 30 feet of it. You have little chance of getting closer, thanks to its scent ability.
You roll initiative. If the lion beats the rogue with its +7 modifier it probably pounces him. If the rogue wins, moves up, he sneak attacks the lion with range, Then the lion pounces him, then the fighter has to try to save him.
Lets say the situation is suddenly less than ideal. One of the male lion's mates is hiding in the tall grass trying to get a rabbit. The rogue has a good chance of missing his perception against her whopping +12 stealth. Her perception is better than his stealth, and in all likely hood since he doesn't know she's there, he doesn't know to stay out of scent range. (you do not need to know what you're hiding from to hide. if that was the rule stealth would be completely useless for scouting because the entire point of scouting is to find things that you don't know are there)
In all likelyhood he's going to attract her attention, be pounced in the surprise round, take a measly non sneak attack sword to the head, and then be bitten pinned clawed clawed clawed clawed into negative hit points before the fighter can get to him. Trying to sneak up on things that have good perceptions and scent is a bad idea, and LOTS of things have good perceptions or scent.
The idea being that the Scouts spot the enemy before the enemy spots them, OR that the Scout triggers the ambush - better one dude getting pined down than the whole squad.
That's the idea but it doesn't work out in practice because most things are better at spotting the rogue than he is at hiding from them, and or better at hiding than he is at spotting. In order to scout the rogue needs to hide AND spot better than his opponent. If he messes up either of those it doesn't work.
Not true. The whole point is the party shouldn't know how many encounters they are going to hit, unless they have taken a lot of steps to anticipate said encounters (which is not always possible).The point is they shouldn't be able to metagame away and know they have four and four only.
So if you do two encounters every single week for months on end you don't think people are going to notice and manage their resources accordingly? People WILL adapt their play style to the culture of the DM, and if you consistently have few encounters per day people will put more resources into each one.
I'm not saying 4 every single time... sometimes 2, sometimes 5 or 6, sometimes 1 huge epic ultimate showdown. If you're consistantly under the norm there's no way to keep people from metagaming.
I still maintain that the 4xDay is also not to be found in PF, Its 3.5, and PF isn't 3.5
Pathfinder and 3.5 really aren't that different mechanically.
Its part of the balance against casters. Seemingly inconsequential things are built into the system, tweak one and you tweak them all.
Look at it like making a free throw in basketball. Even if its easy , its still hard to do 4,5,6 7 times in a row.If you're saying that the rogue might get caught once by continually testing the odds, sure it can happen. But you know what?
It's still worth it. All the times the rogue gets to warn the party ahead of time, all the times the party gets to dictate engaging the enemy, all the times the party is not ambushed.. its worth it.
In your lion example.. somehow the rogue gets within 30' of a lion, without anything between them, the lion spots him, and the lion beats him in initiative. And sometimes the guy that needs a 20 to hit you with his scythe not only hits you but crits you...
-James
+1
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So BNW in essence all you are doing is agreeing with me that not all creatures who have stealth would spend their entire time actually stealthed, and that there are numerous ways that they might be sitting about non-stealthed.
Also, with the non stealthed Lion, well it may well be an encounter - if the party is off hunting Lions.
I dont subscribe to the 4xDay myth either, its a holdover from 3.5 - and has no place in any PF game I have been a part of (and good riddance to it too) and just leads to boring play.
Believe in it or not, it's part of every adventure path. Some times longer than 4 combats a day. Sometimes combats themselves come in waves that function like 4 combats a day.
If you can rest and recover to come back tomorrow, your enemy also gets to rest and recover for tomorrow. Or retreat and retrench. Or kill the person you are trying to save, etc...
I feel like some people have lazy DMs on here. If you get attacked and the people who attack you leave to presumably regroup and come back tomorrow, are you just going to sit there and wait for them?
So if you do two encounters every single week for months on end you don't think people are going to notice and manage their resources accordingly? People WILL adapt their play style to the culture of the DM, and if you consistently have few encounters per day people will put more resources into each one.
So at what point did I say it was one or two? It could be one, it could be twenty - they won't really know.
What I am saying is that the 4xDay model is not only unpalatable (to me) but an outdated and outmoded notion from another edition and is NOT in Pathfinder. I never played 3.5, have no interest in 3.5, and thus have no real driving interest in importing a bizarre mechanic over.
Players should simply 'come prepared', like a bunch of good Boyscouts.
It's still worth it. All the times the rogue gets to warn the party ahead of time, all the times the party gets to dictate engaging the enemy, all the times the party is not ambushed.. its worth it.
Indeed, its like a 'saving throw' for the whole group - better to have a shot than get suckered right on in :)
I feel like some people have lazy DMs on here. If you get attacked and the people who attack you leave to presumably regroup and come back tomorrow, are you just going to sit there and wait for them?
Somthing I feel has been encouraged by the ghastly 4xday hamster wheel.
I'm happy its not referenced in PF, I see it as a positve sign that the paradigm has shifted.
Good discussion here. I'd just like to add that IMHO, scouting is vital and viable. Message spells are free, now, medium range, and put the scout not too far ahead of his friends to get help, should he be caught.
A familiar could do the same job, particularly if it's invisible, etc. It's far more vulnerable when caught, though, and has little hope of escaping unscathed. Cast that invisibilty on a rogue, and you've got a solid scout who can live through being spotted, and maybe live until the rest of the party can get to him.
A typical scout is not looking for a fight. He's just looking.
If you're saying that the rogue might get caught once by continually testing the odds, sure it can happen. But you know what?
He's not going to get caught once. He's going to get caught up there many, many times over the course of his adventures.
It's still worth it. All the times the rogue gets to warn the party ahead of time, all the times the party gets to dictate engaging the enemy, all the times the party is not ambushed.. its worth it.
The rogue has to succeed on his stealth check AND his perception check AND needs to not come within a distance of the critters extra senses, and be far enough ahead of the party that the party's movement forward allows his move back (usually at half speed) before sir clanks a lot alerts the monsters to his presence (at that DC -6 or so +distance for moving at full speed)
The party can survive an ambush if they don't walk into the middle of it. The rogue can give that much warning from 5 feet behind the tank as well as in front of it.
Hmmm.. this is would work better with a visual (to the cloud!) Yes, on average the party might do better with a rogue in front, but that's averaging out some very good combats where everything goes like clockwork with some very bad ones. 4 combats where the meatshield gets reduced below half HP is bad, but acceptable (in that the party can deal with it). Trading that for 3 combats where everything goes like clockwork and 1 combat where the rogue gets mauled to death is a poor deal (and i think I'm being generous with the ratio there)
In your lion example.. somehow the rogue gets within 30' of a lion, without anything between them, the lion spots him, and the lion beats him in initiative. And sometimes the guy that needs a 20 to hit you with his scythe not only hits you but crits you...
Tall grass obscures sight but doesn't block movement(it provides cover to hide, but no bonus unless you have a racial bonus like the lion does) the lion needs to make the stealth roll OR the perception roll: if it makes the perception roll it sees the rogue. If it makes the stealth roll the rogue wanders into scent range. Both independantly, are LIKELY (greater than 50 50 chance) Either one happening becomes very likely.
-using a message spell is problematic. Its a dc 25 to hear the message, giving the monsters another shot at a perception check to spot the rogue, and the wizard doesn't know whether the rogue is 50 feet or 5 feet away from the monster. Its like coming in (quietly) over the radio and asking "Hey, how's that sneaking going bob"
He's not going to get caught once. He's going to get caught up there many, many times over the course of his adventures.
Well thats really obvious, if he adventures a lot, he will (over time) be caught a lot... its like saying life is 99% fatal. The fighter will get hit lots and may die - doesn't make fighters 'useless'
The rogue has to succeed on his stealth check AND his perception check AND needs to not come within a distance of the critters extra senses, and be far enough ahead of the party that the party's movement forward allows his move back (usually at half speed) before sir clanks a lot alerts the monsters to his presence (at that DC -6 or so +distance for moving at full speed)
You are suggesting this is difficult?
And yes, the party will be positively crawling along at half speed - patrolling speed to be precise...and the distance 120' is ideal. Mr Rogue can run that in one round.
The party can survive an ambush if they don't walk into the middle of it. The rogue can give that much warning from 5 feet behind the tank as well as in front of it.
Thats right, and the best way to avoid hitting the middle of an ambush is to have the scout find it before the party walks into it. How he can detect it 'just as well' from 5' behind the fighter hasn't been explained...? How else are they 'not walking into the middle of it'?
Hmmm..
You need a better Rogue, clearly the rogues you roll with believe they need to be leading the charge against a sea of foes. No wonder they trip the ambush and get seen all the time, you are scouting using a Paladin!
Don't even get me started on the Lion.
If we get down to having to provide such specialised and ideal circumstances in which to 'trip the rogue up' then it becomes pretty clear there is no case to answer. 'What if rocks fall and we all die?'
He does his job just fine when it comes to being a scout, and thats as it should be. It's not foolproof, and nor should it be.
Well thats really obvious, if he adventures a lot, he will (over time) be caught a lot... its like saying life is 99% fatal. The fighter will get hit lots and may die - doesn't make fighters 'useless'
The fighter is built to take hits and not die (and does so fairly well till around level 12 or so) The game mechanics allow this. The game mechanics, as I've shown, are not very forgiving for a rogue trying to scout.
You are suggesting this is difficult?
Yes. Even if you have a greater than 50% chance of success your failures will be too many.
And yes, the party will be positively crawling along at half speed - patrolling speed to be precise...and the distance 120' is ideal. Mr Rogue can run that in one round.
What about moving through the woods to get from point A to point B, are you going half speed the entire time?
When do you have the rogue go out ahead?
Stabby the rogue can only run 120 feet if he has a strait, uninterrupted line without any difficult terrain. That's not usually the case.
Thats right, and the best way to avoid hitting the middle of an ambush is to have the scout find it before the party walks into it. How he can detect it 'just as well' from 5' behind the fighter hasn't been explained...? How else are they 'not walking into the middle of it'?
They walk into the front of it, so that the whole party is there to support each other and the meat shield is in front of the party
You need a better Rogue, clearly the rogues you roll with believe they need to be leading the charge against a sea of foes. No wonder they trip the ambush and get seen all the time, you are scouting using a Paladin!
See, this is the bupkiss thats starting to annoy me. Your rogues suck, play your rogues "better" ... followed by absolutely no specific changes in behavior that would actually alter the outcome unless the DM is having the monsters stand around with signs that say "kill me"
You have a rogue in front of the party. if he looses initiative or is spotted he's going to have to deal with that fact.
Don't even get me started on the Lion. If we get down to having to provide such specialised and ideal circumstances in which to 'trip the rogue up' then it becomes pretty clear there is no case to answer. 'What if rocks fall and we all die?'
The rogue having an achilies heel isn't like the (alleged) difficulty wizards have with golems: its that a LARGE number of critters are problematic for a lone rogue trying to stealth.
He does his job just fine when it comes to being a scout, and thats as it should be. It's not...
Build your scout that's reasonably effective in combat.
The game mechanics, as I've shown, are not very forgiving for a rogue trying to scout.
..because you are painting overly harsh examples and specialist cases and presenting them as the norm. I could pit a L5 Figter against a Tarrasque too.
You are suggesting this is difficult?
Yes. Even if you have a greater than 50% chance of success your failures will be too many.
The problem with quoting stats like this is I would need you to show me the legions of rogues with a 50% fail rate, where are they?
I haven't seen any rogues so far with anything like this level of 'failure'.And yes, the party will be positively crawling along at half speed - patrolling speed to be precise...and the distance 120' is ideal. Mr Rogue can run that in one round.
What about moving through the woods to get from point A to point B, are you going half speed the entire time?
When do you have the rogue go out ahead?
Stabby the rogue can only run 120 feet if he has a strait, uninterrupted line without any difficult terrain. That's not usually the case.
Yes, half speed the WHOLE TIME.
Patrolling speed in the real world is about 2kmh. About half speed in PF. Uncanny.You have the Rogue on point the WHOLE TIME.
If Stabby gets caught short on some bad terrain, he can use Withdraw. All he has to do is stay alive, which is no huge task, especially against melee creatures as he will have a head start.
If you have a RANGER scout its even easier, but a rogue is just fine.
Thats right, and the best way to avoid hitting the middle of an ambush is to have the scout find it before the party walks into it. How he can detect it 'just as well' from 5' behind the fighter hasn't been explained...? How else are they 'not walking into the middle of it'?
They walk into the front of it, so that the whole party is there to support each other and the meat shield is in front of the party
Ok so your counter ambush drill is to simply lead with your chin into the middle of the engagement area and assume your Tank is solid enough to bear the brunt, and the full force will be centred on him and not tag any weaker members. Thats gonna be ugly if the GM plays opponents as anything smarter than sawdust.
See, this is the bupkiss thats starting to annoy me. Your rogues suck, play your rogues "better" ... followed by absolutely no specific changes in behavior that would actually alter the outcome unless the DM is having the monsters stand around with signs that say "kill me"
You have a rogue in front of the party. if he looses initiative or is spotted he's going to have to deal with that fact.
REALLY?
So far we have covered:
Correcting your rogues positioning.
Actions on encountering an ambush where rogue is compromised
Actions on encountering an ambush where rogue is not compromised
A task role (scouting) for your Rogue in the party
And massively increased the party survivability.
Like I mean short of driving over and playing the Rogue for you and handing out a tutorial I dont know what else can be done.
You are inisiting point blank that its broken, and all I can do, to be blunt is point out the hole in your play style.
Rogues and Rangers to the front, especially in the wilds.
The Rogue *MAY* lose Init, but with a huge Dex, and possibly Improved Init, its far less likely - and even if he does well too bad, anyone can have a sloppy roll, the bad guy might make saving throws against your Wiz/Cleric too.
Failed init doesn't equal death.
The rogue having an achilies heel isn't like the (alleged) difficulty wizards have with golems: its that a LARGE number of critters are problematic for a lone rogue trying to stealth.
This heel is by no means gamebreaking, and frankly you are overstating its significance. Even if the Rogue gets spotted and runs, he has still done his job.
Build your scout that's reasonably effective in combat.
I'm not the one saying a Rogue has a problem, they do just fine in combat. What they aren't good at is single handedly wading in and soloing the party encounter, which seemed to be your suggested course of action if they get sprung.
Rogues are a great class, and I just haven't SEEN any of the stuff you are suggesting bear out in actual play like you describe, and thats across a fair few tables.
Anyhow, I don't see the point debating anymore meteor showers that might have the scent ability, if you have questions, other than 'but what if' some rare/random/unlikely event then I'm all ears.
The Rogue is a member of a party, and should be working with the party to align tactics to maximise their offensive and defensive capacity. He is a cog that has a dangerous job. He is not just McStabbity the DPS machine.
..because you are painting overly harsh examples and specialist cases and presenting them as the norm. I could pit a L5 Figter against a Tarrasque too.
They ARE the norm. I don't know how to drop any heavier of an anvil: I am not cherry picking monsters. MANY of them have abilities that will catch a lone rogue half the time: either high perception scores, a stealth negating ability like scent, blindsight/blindsense or tremor sense. past level 9 or so its downright ubiquitous.
The problem with quoting stats like this is I would need you to show me the legions of rogues with a 50% fail rate, where are they?
I haven't seen any rogues so far with anything like this level of 'failure'.
Which is why i asked you to build me a rogue. The last rogue we had for an example had such a fail rate against things of equal CR. If i build the rogue i'm sure i'd get "ur doin it wrong"
Yes, half speed the WHOLE TIME
That's Ridiculous and paranoid. you'll never get anywhere moving around at a crawl.
If Stabby gets caught short on some bad terrain, he can use Withdraw.
And the creature can simply follow him. MOST things have a movement speed faster than 30. Or reach (which largely negates withdrawl)
Thats right, and the best way to avoid hitting the middle of an ambush is to have the scout find it before the party walks into it. How he can detect it 'just as well' from 5' behind the fighter hasn't been explained...? How else are they 'not walking into the middle of it'?
Because you have the same perception roll from behind the fighter as you do in front of him. You walk into the FRONT of the ambush, the rogues perception score keeps the party from walking into the middle of it with the vulnerable casters exposed. Casters aren't even all THAT vulnerable, most can just 5 foot step and cast for a few rounds. I don't know why the default assumption hasn't moved to casters being able to tumble via acrobatics now that they can max their ranks in that skill.
Ok so your counter ambush drill is to simply lead with your chin into the middle of the engagement area and assume your Tank is solid enough to bear the brunt
If its a level appropriate encounter taking the tank down with surprise + lost init before he can be healed/supported/put in a hamster ball would be rather unusual, probably leaves the fighter down and bleeding and the party warned anyway, leaving the 3 remaining party members to work together on the encounter. In the same circumstances, or with a level inappropriate encounter, the rogue can be taken down and killed without time to give warning. If the rogue is 120 feet ahead , its going to tank sir clanks a lot 2 rounds just to get there (20' move X3 for a run= 60 feet) and a 3rd round before he can do anything.
and the full force will be centred on him and not tag any weaker members. Thats gonna be ugly if the GM plays opponents as anything smarter than sawdust.
wading into the middle of the adventurers to go after squishy the wizard gets the foes in a fighter rogue sandwich with a side of cleric. Casters aren't nearly as squishy as they were in 3.5 (the upgrade to a d6 and the usual HP/level rather than skillpoint), and can definitely hold on their own with 5 foot steps and castings , especially if they duck behind the fighter or cleric.
Thats if the wizard has a sign on his head that says "wizard". I always make sure mine wear stylish leather clothes and carry paired shortsword and daggers when on the road.
REALLY?So far we have covered:
Correcting your rogues positioning.
To something that will get him killed.
Actions on encountering an ambush where rogue is compromised
Where you assume he will win initiative and not be surprised, grappled, tripped, in difficult terrain, charmed, blinded... yes, these can happen to ANY character, but when they happen to another character working as a group they can be dealt with. The charmed fighter gets a protection from evil/dispel magic, the grappled wizard gets his opponent backstabbed, the tripped rogue gets his for bullrushed away.
Actions on encountering an ambush where rogue is not compromised
A task role (scouting) for your Rogue in the party
And massively increased the party survivability.
If the monsters are played with, as you put it, the intelligence of sawdust, this allegedly intelligently played rogue is going to die.
Like I mean short of driving over and playing the Rogue for you and handing out a tutorial I dont know what else can be done. You are inisiting point blank that its broken, and all I can do, to be blunt is point out the hole in your play style.
You can build a rogue that can reliably scout on appropriate encounter levels. You keep suggesting that it can be done. Show me the money. The last one was running around with a sign that said "eat me"
Having the monsters played with half a brain isn't a hole in my playstyle.
The Rogue *MAY* lose Init, but with a huge Dex, and possibly Improved Init, its far less likely - and even if he does well too bad, anyone can have a sloppy roll, the bad guy might make saving throws against your Wiz/Cleric too.
And the wiz/cleric is hiding behind the fighter and gets to go again.
This heel is by no means gamebreaking, and frankly you are overstating its significance. Even if the Rogue gets spotted and runs, he has still done his job.
I showed with the list of criters that at CR 2 i wasn't overstating anything.
Rogues are a great class, and I just haven't SEEN any of the stuff you are suggesting bear out in actual play like you describe, and thats across a fair few tables.
And i haven't seen situations where scouting would work consistently, and I'd be willing to be its across an equal number of tables, so you're going to have to rely on actual numbers rather than an alleged experience discrepancy.
Anyhow, I don't see the point debating anymore meteor showers that might have the scent ability, if you have questions, other than 'but what if' some rare/random/unlikely event then I'm all ears.
LOOK at the beastiary. Pick a level. Look through the monsters. What % of them have scent, tremmor sense, blindsight, blind sense, a stealth higher than 6 + the rogues level or a perception roughly around 8+ the rogues level.
The Rogue is a member of a party, and should be working with the party to align tactics to maximise their offensive and defensive capacity. He is a cog that has a dangerous job. He is not just McStabbity the DPS machine.
He could be replaced as a scout by a crystal ball, a druid, ranger, that ring of eyes spell...
Which is why i asked you to build me a rogue. The last rogue we had for an example had such a fail rate against things of equal CR. If i build the rogue i'm sure i'd get "ur doin it wrong"
Build a rogue is like 'build me an X'.
What terrain are you operating in? What level, what gear, whats the rest of the party's composition? what are the likely enemy in the area of operations?These are all key questions.
That's Ridiculous and paranoid. you'll never get anywhere moving around at a crawl.
Why are you in a hurry? Cant wait to walk into an ambush?
In the very real world, soldiers and hunters move at this pace. Why, when time becomes quasi meaningless in an RPG would we find this too slow? Time has LESS meaning in an RPG.Tactical movement takes time and patience.
And the creature can simply follow him. MOST things have a movement speed faster than 30. Or reach (which largely negates withdrawl)
Yeah the creature can follow. The same terrain problems the rogue has the creature has, plus the rogue has a head start and only need to move for a round or two. At best the creature is going to get maybe one shot off.
Because you have the same perception roll from behind the fighter as you do in front of him.
This part is just plain wrong.
if I need to explain why, then you obviously aren't using distance or terrain modifiers in your perception checks, and if thats the case then I now see why your game is so broken.
If the Rogue can spot the middle of an ambush 30' away then hes only giving the fighter 25' notice... the fighter is probably already in the killing ground. If he doesnt manage to spot it then he failed his tasking and the party is now in a trap.
If he was 100' ahead then he will spot the ambush and the party can now retain some sort of initiative/avoid being surprise rounded.
Anyhow I could go on and reanswer answers I have already givem, but its clear you just dont get it.
The facts are that the Rogue is perfectly capable of doing his job, I just believe you have a different view about what the job should be.
He has a risky job to do, he is the advance guard meant to trigger ambushes... this is reflected in his abilities (a none so subtle suggestion) giving him things like Evasion and the ability not to be caught flat footed. The reason he has these life savers sort of suggest that he has a particular role.
The Rogues job is not to be the whispering death grand master ninja, and even if it was, well Ninjas got caught too - which is why they had escape and evasion techniques. he needs to find the ambush, one way or another, then get out.
Learn to use caltrops, etc.
Have counter ambush plans.
SOOOO much you can do.
Anyhow this ie ONE aspect of a very robust class that brings a whole swag of goodies to the table, so to focus on the scouting alone is being one dimensional.
I can't see how anyone can really fault such a diverse class.
Build a rogue is like 'build me an X'.
What terrain are you operating in? What level, what gear, whats the rest of the party's composition? what are the likely enemy in the area of operations?
You don't get to know what terrain you'll be in because you'll be in a lot of diverse terrain over an adventuring path. Standard wealth by level, you pick the level. Fighter, squishy wizard, Spell/healy heavy heavy cleric, you don't know.
Why are you in a hurry?
Princess needs saving, you'd like to reach town before nightfall, moving at half speed means spending twice as many nights out in the open, the priest you're escorting needs to be there before the festival, someone else is after the artifact, an undead zombie hoard is heading for town.. the usual adventurer stuff.
In the very real world, soldiers and hunters move at this pace. Why, when time becomes quasi meaningless in an RPG would we find this too slow? Time has LESS meaning in an RPG.
Soldiers don't always move at that pace.
Yeah the creature can follow. The same terrain problems the rogue has the creature has, plus the rogue has a head start and only need to move for a round or two. At best the creature is going to get maybe one shot off.
The "best" for a monster is to surprise the rogue and then win initiative. That's going to be 2 shots before the rogue even moves. If that happens and the creature has grapple or trip he's dead.
if I need to explain why, then you obviously aren't using distance or terrain modifiers in your perception checks, and if thats the case then I now see why your game is so broken.
I've had it up to here with the insults.
Let me, AGAIN, spell this out for you. There is a difference between walking into the MIDDLE of an ambush and walking into the front of it. One exposes your front (sir clanks alot) one exposes your sides. If you're using missle weapons there's no difference. If you're using melee its a HUGE difference. If the rogue, on his own, can spot the threat while out scouting he can also spot the threat while 5 feet behind the fighter. (which is a 50 50 chance of a -2 penalty depending on exactly where the thing is)
If the Rogue can spot the middle of an ambush 30' away then hes only giving the fighter 25' notice... the fighter is probably already in the killing ground. If he doesnt manage to spot it then he failed his tasking and the party is now in a trap.
If he fails to spot it he would have failed to spot it alone while scouting anyway. You act as though only rogues doing something wrong will do that, when its really more up to the dice than any alleged skill disparities.
Anyhow I could go on and reanswer answers I have already givem, but its clear you just dont get it.
A shameless cop out. Its clear that i disagree with you and that you're dancing behind generalities. I've asked you for more specifics for a reason. His ability to find the ambush is based largely on dice and the DM's monsters, not on the player's skill.
Build a rogue is like 'build me an X'.
What terrain are you operating in? What level, what gear, whats the rest of the party's composition? what are the likely enemy in the area of operations?
You don't get to know what terrain you'll be in because you'll be in a lot of diverse terrain over an adventuring path. Standard wealth by level, you pick the level. Fighter, squishy wizard, Spell/healy heavy heavy cleric, you don't know.
Why are you in a hurry?
Princess needs saving, you'd like to reach town before nightfall, moving at half speed means spending twice as many nights out in the open, the priest you're escorting needs to be there before the festival, someone else is after the artifact, an undead zombie hoard is heading for town.. the usual adventurer stuff.
In the very real world, soldiers and hunters move at this pace. Why, when time becomes quasi meaningless in an RPG would we find this too slow? Time has LESS meaning in an RPG.
Soldiers don't always move at that pace.
Yeah the creature can follow. The same terrain problems the rogue has the creature has, plus the rogue has a head start and only need to move for a round or two. At best the creature is going to get maybe one shot off.
The "best" for a monster is to surprise the rogue and then win initiative. That's going to be 2 shots before the rogue even moves. If that happens and the creature has grapple or trip he's dead.
if I need to explain why, then you obviously aren't using distance or terrain modifiers in your perception checks, and if thats the case then I now see why your game is so broken.
I've had it up to here with the insults.
Anyhow this ie ONE aspect of a very robust class that brings a whole swag of goodies to the table, so to focus on the scouting alone is being one dimensional.I can't see how anyone can really fault such a diverse class.
anything they do besides trapfinding another class does better. The ability for anyone to max out ranks means that having a class skill has less relevavence now, that anyone can find and remove traps means the rogue isn't needed in a party. Its good that they can sneak attack now (before almost everything was immune) but they lost too much unique ground to other classes
Soldiers don't always move at that pace.
We sure do when moving in hostile areas of operations on 'patrolling tasks', slow deliberate movement - approx 1-2kmh depending on terrain. You CAN move faster, sure, but you are trading off SECURITY, however that isn't 'scouting'.
And at that point I think your argument has pretty much fallen over.
You are back to 'well if the monster wins all this and gets surprise andf gets all these attacks and the rogue is caught out..' can be invented for any class one cares to imagine.
Its almost like you are being deliberately obtuse.
A Rogue is part of a party dynamic, you have to consider this at generation, there is no 'wonder build' where he can do everything everytime perfectly and negate every monsters ability and guarantee 100% survivability. All classes have their weaknesses.