I have two questions:
1) Can Hand of the Apprentice (Generalist Wizard) and Overhand Chop (Two Handed Fighter) be used together?
So my STR Bonus is +4, if I use Hand of the Apprentice will it double to +8?
2) Normally....
Would throwing a 2 Handed Weapon (Based just on the Thrown Weapons and Wielding weapons 2 handed categories)cause STR damage to be multiplied x1.5?
On a side note to that question, if a fighter has weapon-specific feats, like weapon focus and weapon specialization, does he get to apply those when he throws his weapon? I don't see why training to fight with a greatsword would teach you how to throw it better... but the RAW don't prohibit it.
Let me make this easier for all:
Overhand Chop
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
I have two questions:
1) Can Hand of the Apprentice (Generalist Wizard) and Overhand Chop (Two Handed Fighter) be used together?
So my STR Bonus is +4, if I use Hand of the Apprentice will it double to +8?
2) Normally....
Would throwing a 2 Handed Weapon (Based just on the Thrown Weapons and Wielding weapons 2 handed categories)cause STR damage to be multiplied x1.5?
I would say no. It is quite clear (at least to me) that the intention of the Overhand Chop ability (from it's name, to it's description) is meant to be a benefit when the weapin is actually wielded, not magically manipulated.
As well, the Overhand Chop is part of a fighter 'specialty' skill line, that also lends credance to the conecept it was not made to be a benefit to magically manipulated weaponry.
Lastly, nowhere in the Hand of the Apprentice ability is it even intimated that abilites or feats or other abilites that boost damage in any way are applicable when used with HotA. Since Overhand Chop is an ability that improves wielding a two handed weapon and HotA is treated as a ranged attack, it seems simple that they do not stack, either in concept, intention or RAW.
Using HotA is using a spell like ability. I don't see why special melee training would boost an SLA without explicit exeption.
1) "Lastly, nowhere in the Hand of the Apprentice ability is it even intimated that abilites or feats or other abilites that boost damage in any way are applicable when used with HotA. Since Overhand Chop is an ability that improves wielding a two handed weapon and HotA is treated as a ranged attack, it seems simple that they do not stack, either in concept, intention or RAW."
Are you trying to say that feats/abilities that a player has for a weapon, aren't applied for every use of that weapon?
So... my Weapon Specialization(Short Spear) (Meaning that I KNOW the ins and outs of how to deal damage with a Short Spear) Doesn't apply if I want to smack someone with the butt end of the spear? How about weapon focus?
Let's go through the checklist:
-I'm using a Two Handed Weapon
-I'm making a single attack using the attack action.
-I have a strength bonus to the attack.
Looks like Overhand chop applies!
2) "Using HotA is using a spell like ability. I don't see why special melee training would boost an SLA without explicit exception"
Clearly, mudane things are affecting the attack: strength, weapon size, etc. So why wouldn't this? If I had sneak attack, in a surprise round....wouldn't that apply?
Stop saying words like "Special Melee Training" it's WEAPON training, and I may use that weapon in different ways.
PS: Hand of the Apprentice is a Supernatural Ability.
Where it says that it cannot be used with a combat maneuver implies to me that it was not intended to be used to work with something like overhand chop but I also think that this would just come down to, does the DM want to allow it.
To me, DrDew,
No combat maneuvers implies No combat Maneuvers. They didn't want people to be tripped/bullrushed/disarmed/sundered from a distance, thus removing the dangers of doing those maneuvers in close range... which would outshine the benefits of a LOT of maneuver feats.
Removing class abilities which apply seems ridiculous when you think of things like Smite or Sneak Attack, don't they?
*Bump*
Can we get some more people on this?
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I think this falls into the category marked: "Strange corner-case."
The feat doesn't bother referring to thrown weapons because there aren't any two-handed thrown weapons.
The spell creates an exception.
Thus leaving a hole in the rules.
The answer is clearly that this is part of the reason we have GMs.
There can be no conclusive ruling on this. The rules neither allow nor disallow such a combination. At a cursory glance I can find at least three ways to argue it semantically, each of which is equally valid.
This answer will probably upset some people, though I do not mean it to, but it seems to be the reasonable, sensible answer. It is also the RAI and RAW answer.
So here's the answer, hope you like it:
It's up to your GM.
The answer is actually, quite clearly, no.
Overhand Chop specifies that it takes an "attack action", which is a standard action (see Vital Strike). Hand of the Apprentice also takes a standard action. You cannot take two simultaneous standard actions, therefore you cannot apply 2x STR Mod on HoA.
I am unsure whether you would apply 0.5x, 1x or 1.5x STR Mod on the attack though, as how many hands are involved in the attack is unclear since you are sort of using no hands to hurl the weapon.
lol.
That is the answer to everything, of course. The book says that magic missile exists, but a DM can nix that if he feels it necessary. He can even give out arbitrary negatives if he wishes.
Still, I want to know the creators' intentions here.
Mauril:
Overhand chop applies to a Single Attack Action, whether it takes a full round to make that attack or a standard action or a move action.
Mauril:
Overhand chop applies to a Single Attack Action, whether it takes a full round to make that attack or a standard action or a move action.
Incorrect. RAW specifies two conditions under which you can use Overhand Chop: attack action (i.e. a standard action attack) or a charge. Attack Action is a specifically defined term which equates to a Standard Action. I think you are thinking of the wording on special attacks like Trip, which specify that they can be used "in place of an attack", which lets them be used on whatever action(s) you can make attack rolls with.
I think this falls into the category marked: "Strange corner-case."
The feat doesn't bother referring to thrown weapons because there aren't any two-handed thrown weapons.
Look under "Simple Weapons: Spear".
Also note that throwing a 2-handed weapon is a full round action.
Right, and any weapon can be wielded with 2 Hands, gaining the 2Handed STR Bonus if it isn`t a Light Weapon.
But the specific text of Over-Hand Chop specifically says using the Attack Action or a Charge, and since Hand of Apprentice is ´it´s own´ unique Standard Action, it isn`t compatable per RAW.
Of course, one can just put the Throwing property onto your favorite Greatsword and then be able to make a Thrown Ranged Attack via an Attack Action, which would be compatable with Overhand Chop. Since that´s EASILY possible, I can see many groups´s house-ruling that Hand of the Apprentice CAN work with Overhand Chop.
It seems to me that RAW and RAI on Overhand Chop would be the same. In a few levels (at level 7), the THF Fighter gains the ability to use the extra damage on all attacks in a full attack (except the first attack). If they had wanted it to apply to any single attack, saying "such as on an attack action..." or just saying, "When a fighter makes a single attack with a two-handed weapon" and left out the parenthetical statement.
Right, Mauril, I agree (that`s why I deleted my musings :-)).
The fact that they DID use parentheses is what drew my attention to the RAI/RAW aspect, because the parentheses are 100% un-needed and un-called for if simply relating the two exclusively allowed attack options. I would only expect parenthesis when being given non-exhaustive examples, but the actual wording doesn`t support that in this case... SO in any case, it could probably see some Editing/Errata to clear up any confusion (e.g. cutting out un-needed parentheses which don`t make sense unless their contents are examples solely for clarity, rather than the exclusive triggers to the ability).
One CAN see that Paizo could have easily made Hand of the Apprentice itself an Attack Action to activate (i.e. an alternate application of Attack Action, like Sunder), but they didn´t... Obviously, because that would have allowed Vital Strike as well as other things like Over-Hand Chop.
I guess I slipped in just before you deleted it. I didn't know I'd taken a level of Ninja. Especially since Paizo hasn't even released it yet. *smirk*
I think an FAQ might be warranted, but an actual errata implies that the wording is wrong and makes the ability too powerful, too weak or unusable.
Well, when I say Errata, it`s because the actual rules text is misleading...
Specifically the PUNCTUATION (parentheses) doesn`t conform to the rest of the text... Just as if Paizo had printed rules text with a missing comma, or an inappopriately placed comma, either of which could suggest a different interpretation to otherwise identical rules text. I don`t see why anybody should be surprised if Paizo would correct such an error...
As well, the ´diversion´ of mentioning ´single attack´ (in conjuction with the parentheses) suggests (per standard English grammar) that ´single attack´ is the only real requirement and the parenthetical cases are just examples. If it doesn`t mean that (RAI), ´single attack´ and the parentheses are just plain mis-leading, not to mention wasting word-count at best.
In this case, it would be SHORTER and CLEARER to just say ´... makes an attack action or charge with a two-handed weapon...´. The current text just provides the reader with too many reasons to ask ´well they COULD have written it to clearly trigger only on those two actions, but it has all this other text/punctuation suggesting something else, so...´.
2. No.. throwing a two handed weapon is nothing more than throwing any other object of similar mass. It's not balanced for such activity and is essentially an improvised weapon. A DM can be slightly generous on the base damage, but the STR is not multiplied.
Again, note that there are rules for throwing two-handed weapons, and it's not exactly the same as throwing a one-handed weapon:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Note that the rules say nothing about increasing the Strength modifier to damage for throwing a two-handed weapon, so the answer to question #2 is "no".
Well, when I say Errata, it`s because the actual rules text is misleading...
Specifically the PUNCTUATION (parentheses) doesn`t conform to the rest of the text... Just as if Paizo had printed rules text with a missing comma, or an inappopriately placed comma, either of which could suggest a different interpretation to otherwise identical rules text.As well, the ´diversion´ of mentioning ´single attack´ (in conjuction with the parentheses) suggests (per standard English grammar) that ´single attack´ is the only real requirement and the parenthetical cases are just examples. If it doesn`t mean that (RAI), ´single attack´ and the parentheses are just plain mis-leading, not to mention wasting word-count at best.
In this case, it would be SHORTER and CLEARER to just say ´... makes an attack action or charge with a two-handed weapon...´.
Heh. Oddly, your version opens up a new confusion. Does that mean any attack action, not just those with two-handed weapons? That is, does "with a two-handed weapon" go with both "attack action" and "charge" or just "charge"?
I can see a little confusion regarding what all it can be used with, but I'd prefer an FAQ. Especially since those seem to happen more frequently than errata lists, since those only seem to come with new printings of the book. This discussion (errata vs FAQ) has no bearing on the OP though, so I'll leave it here.
Note that the rules say nothing about increasing the Strength modifier to damage for throwing a two-handed weapon, so the answer to question #2 is "no". note that there are rules for throwing two-handed weapons, and it's not exactly the same as throwing a one-handed weapon:Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round actionRegardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet..Note that the rules say nothing about increasing the Strength modifier to damage for throwing a two-handed weapon, so the answer to question #2 is "no".
(Caveat for below is of course that I may be mis-reading your post)
Hogarth, your bolding of the PRD quote seems to be excluding an important context, namely that specific sub-section is not for EVERY thrown weapon but for ´improvised thrown weapons´ (which isn`t especially relevant to this thread in general, although LazarX seemingly thinks ALL thrown weapons should be treated like Improvised Thown weapons). Weapons that actually have a Range increment don´t follow any of the special rules/penalties that ´improvised thrown weapons´ need to follow. Hand of the Apprentice (and throwing quality weapons) don´t count as ´improvised´ since they explicitly have a Range Increment. Above, I italicized the entire section which gives context to your bolded quote.This is what the rules say in the Combat:Damage:STR Bonus section:
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
BOTH melee and thrown weapons are directed to add ¨STR modifer¨ to damage, so thrown weapons specifying that isn`t special or unique - that`s just the baseline upon which 2 Handed Modifer applies to. As you yourself noted, there are in fact explicitly 2 Handed Thrown weapons in the Core Rules, namely the Spear, besides 1 Handed Thrown Weapons that can benefit from 2 Handed STR multiplier (which are thrown as normal thrown weapons, not as Full Round like Improvised Thrown Weapons). I just don`t see anything restricting Thrown Weapons from benefitting from 2 Handed bonus, even for ´Improvised Thrown Weapons´. In fact, the only reason I can see that Over-Hand Chop wouldn`t apply to ´Improvised Thrown Weapons´ is that they explicitly use their own ´special´ Standard/Full-Round Action to make an attack, rather than ´´any´´ attack roll, e.g. from Attack Action or Charge as Over-Hand Chop requires.
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@Mauril: Actually, that brings up another question that has been seen re: Over Hand Chop, namely is this 2x STR modifier ALL bonus damage on top of normal, or is it ´upgrading´ the 2 Handed 1.5 modifier to be 2.0? (the latter is confirmed by Paizo, though the text itself doesn`t suggest that, you just need to be an experienced D&D player, like you and me and everybody at Paizo, to ´know what it really means´... I.e. EXACTLY the reason why Paizo needs ´newbies´/D&D virgins to proof-read their rules alongside rules ´experts´)
So to MOST clearly express the ability, I think we´d want something like this:
Overhand Chop
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes an attack action or a charge, his Strength bonus to damage is doubled when wielding a two-handed [melee] weapon instead of being multiplied by 1.5.
Including melee or not may affect corner cases like Throwing Quality weapons or 2HandedFighter/Barbarian multiclasses with the Hurling Charge Rage Power at Barbarian/6 (allowing additional free Thrown Weapon attack during Charge), which are both seemingly allowed by the current RAW to work with Overhand Chop (though Overhand Chop would only apply to one attack of a Charge, in the case of Hurling Charge).
Yeah. I can agree with an errata to state that it replaces (rather than stacks with) the normal strength modifier to damage. And, I guess, while they are messing with it, altering the wording to clarify what kinds of attacks you can use it on would make sense.
Note that the rules say nothing about increasing the Strength modifier to damage for throwing a two-handed weapon, so the answer to question #2 is "no". note that there are rules for throwing two-handed weapons, and it's not exactly the same as throwing a one-handed weapon:Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round actionRegardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet..Note that the rules say nothing about increasing the Strength modifier to damage for throwing a two-handed weapon, so the answer to question #2 is "no".(Caveat for below is of course that I may be mis-reading your post)
Hogarth, your bolding of the PRD quote seems to be excluding an important context, namely that specific sub-section is not for EVERY thrown weapon but for ´improvised thrown weapons´ (which isn`t especially relevant to this thread in general, although LazarX seemingly thinks ALL thrown weapons should be treated like Improvised Thown weapons).
This is an old conversation, but I just noticed something from Ultimate Combat (which has now been uploaded to the PRD):
Two-Handed Thrower (Combat)
You hurl weapons with both hands and with great force, sometimes using a whirling technique to send your weapon flying through the air at tremendous speeds.Prerequisite: Str 15.
Benefit: Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. Using two hands to throw any weapon requires only a standard action for you. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus on thrown weapon damage, regardless of available hands. Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
(Emphasis mine.)
I don't have UC, so thanks for posting that.
I'm assuming with Hand of the Apprentice I still get Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation and Fighter Weapon Training. I wouldn't get Power Attack as that's melee only.
At 4th level, with 14 strength, a +1 weapon and the above abilities I'd be doing d8+6 if I hit. I'm still not sure the evoker's force missiles wouldn't be better (and I'd get a bonus spell too). Maybe once the weapon gets bonus damage from flaming or holy...