I recently lost my character in a year-running campaign. The campaign has been centered around characters who are, mostly, unusually oriented. Genasi, aasimar, psionically imbued (psionics don't really exist in this world), and now my character: a wererat.
My character would be a lowly druid type who was afflicted with his curse at a relatively young age- 16-19ish. He was taken in by this group and taught to control his monstrous nature and use it as a tool against the hordes of the Were Goddess, Belsemeth.
The basics of my character are simple. I want to be a nature caster, but druid is a waste. My DM already ruled that I wouldn't be able to combine my were-forms with my wild shaping, so it seems like I'm taking a level adjustment for nothing or wasting class features. Spirit Shaman is an awesome compromise. We've made a few adjustments to the class to bring it up to par with the Pathfinder core.
- Spirit shaman casting is now entirely based on Wisdom.
- Spells known at each level are increased by 1, so the class becomes largely more flexible.
- The class has been reflavored to simply be a casting-focused version of the druid. Basically a druid who chose not to focus on the animalistic aspects of nature and instead pursued her raw power.
Wererat: We're not actually using the book version of this, but instead a templated version similar to what my DM wrote up for the genasi in our group. I don't have specifics yet, but I know it will contain boosts to Dexterity and Intelligence, as well as DR ?/silver and a bite attack.
Race: I'm pretty easy on the racial front. I'm not much of a fan of dwarves or elves, and gnomes aren't really in the setting at all. I'd like to pick a core race, though.
Feats: Weres of this specific group are required to take two feats: Control Shape and Shapeshift Mastery. This allows them to have complete control over their lycanthropy and only pass on the disease when they actively choose to.
Other stuffs: Starting level is 11 (ignoring the level adjustment), alignment is neutral good. Equipment is standard to my level. Books available are all the pathfinder official, as well as most of 3.5. I prefer sticking as close to core as possible, but I can't discount a feat/spell that makes my concept possible.
I'd really like to take at least a moderate focus on archery. Wererat offers a (currently unknown) boost to my dexterity score, and my group is downright terrible about pushing our casters past the point at which they're reduced to cantrips. My last character was a wizard, and casting cantrips in the heat of combat is downright embarassing at level 11.
Beyond that, I'd like to build a moderately powerful caster. Druid casting is among the weakest of the "main three," but the flavor is completely awesome. Ideally I'd like to start off combat with some crowd control, perhaps a summon or two, and then start picking off enemies with my bow/javelins/crossbow/etc. I'll be focusing heavily on Wisdom, so my spell DCs will always be respectable. I want archery as a backup, but I don't want archery to be as useless as a wizard pulling out a crossbow. I'd like it to be a meaningful contribution when I perform it.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer some advice or insight. I really appreciate it!
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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* Spirit shaman casting is now entirely based on Wisdom.
* Spells known at each level are increased by 1, so the class becomes largely more flexible.
* The class has been reflavored to simply be a casting-focused version of the druid. Basically a druid who chose not to focus on the animalistic aspects of nature and instead pursued her raw power.
I question the need for such a power up?
I'd have left the MAD and spells/day alone. It was already widely considered the most powerful 3.5 spellcaster, so making it even better at spellcasting doesn't seem balanced to me.
I question the need for such a power up?
I'd have left the MAD and spells/day alone. It was already widely considered the most powerful 3.5 spellcaster, so making it even better at spellcasting doesn't seem balanced to me.
Wait, what? I contend that all full spellcasters are a leg and a half up on their non-caster companions, especially end game, but the druid list is not nearly as powerful as a wizard or even a cleric.
Also, pathfinder did away with multiple stat casting (see Oracle), and spells/day weren't modified. Only spells known. Their spellcasting was wildly underpowered in 3.5- you had to choose to focus on either spellcasting DC or spells per day, which no other caster (except the Favored Soul) had to deal with. This was a major gimp to their casting system. On top of that, the Spirit Shaman's list is heavily populated with animal buffs that they don't have the capacity to take advantage of outside of summoning spells.
Spirit shamans are still a MAD class, but less so than the 3.5 version. I don't see it as overpowered at all, unless you get into the "all casters are overpowered" argument.
I question the need for such a power up?
I'd have left the MAD and spells/day alone. It was already widely considered the most powerful 3.5 spellcaster, so making it even better at spellcasting doesn't seem balanced to me.
Pardon my confusion, but how is a class that required two separate casting stats "widely considered the most powerful 3.5 spellcaster?" I'm pretty sure that fell into the lap of cleric or wizard. With the enormous amount of splat books available in 3.5 any caster could quickly become overpowered, but since the SS draws from the druid list it's going to be pretty close in power to a pathfinder druid.
It was already widely considered the most powerful 3.5 spellcaster, so making it even better at spellcasting doesn't seem balanced to me.
That comments also surprised me. Actually, it's the first time I hear something else than "interesting concept but druid is still a much better (read more powerful) option".
Mind you, druid was one of the "considered most powerful" class of 3.5, so it may not be much of a reference.
It was already widely considered the most powerful 3.5 spellcaster, so making it even better at spellcasting doesn't seem balanced to me.That comments also surprised me. Actually, it's the first time I hear something else than "interesting concept but druid is still a much better (read more powerful) option".
Mind you, druid was one of the "considered most powerful" class of 3.5, so it may not be much of a reference.
I agree. I think that with our changes the Spirit Shaman is about on par with an Oracle. Druids gain a lot of utility from their various wildshape forms, and the addition of a domain or animal companion isn't anything to scoff at in terms of spell versatility.
I'm guessing I could just take the standard feats for an archer. Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, etc. etc. I was hoping to get some insight on other ways to go about it.
It was already widely considered the most powerful 3.5 spellcaster, so making it even better at spellcasting doesn't seem balanced to me.That comments also surprised me. Actually, it's the first time I hear something else than "interesting concept but druid is still a much better (read more powerful) option".
Mind you, druid was one of the "considered most powerful" class of 3.5, so it may not be much of a reference.
I agree. I think that with our changes the Spirit Shaman is about on par with an Oracle. Druids gain a lot of utility from their various wildshape forms, and the addition of a domain or animal companion isn't anything to scoff at in terms of spell versatility.
I'm guessing I could just take the standard feats for an archer. Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, etc. etc. I was hoping to get some insight on other ways to go about it.
I'd still question the spell bump up change, given the other abilities, it seems a power up for the sake of power up. Part of being a spontaneous caster is the limited list, it's limited for a reason, one of which is getting regular special abilities as you level up. My guess is you are looking at it as a "Pathfinder increased the power of the classes so this is needed" when the truth of the matter is "the base classes needed to be powered up to match most of the additional classes that were out there in 3.5". Obviously your DM signed off on it, but if you are really truly looking for opinions on it, the additional spells aren't needed for "balance" in this case.
I completely agree with the consolidation of the spell stat but I disagree on your choice of stat. Spontaneous casters typically favor the charisma stat and given the proclivity of the Spirit Shaman it fits much better than the Wisdom stat. As a spirit shaman you are communing with the spirits to gain your abilities, you're interacting with the spirits to get something (your class abilities). Using wisdom is nothing more than a numbers bump really, that way you can double dip and get the save bonuses.
I'd say make the casting/primary stat Charisma and lose the spell bump every level and you have yourself a balanced class though.
I'd still question the spell bump up change, given the other abilities, it seems a power up for the sake of power up. Part of being a spontaneous caster is the limited list, it's limited for a reason, one of which is getting regular special abilities as you level up. My guess is you are looking at it as a "Pathfinder increased the power of the classes so this is needed" when the truth of the matter is "the base classes needed to be powered up to match most of the additional classes that were out there in 3.5". Obviously your DM signed off on it, but if you are really truly looking for opinions on it, the additional spells aren't needed for "balance" in this case.
I completely agree with the consolidation of the spell stat but I disagree on your choice of stat. Spontaneous casters typically favor the charisma stat and given the proclivity of the Spirit Shaman it fits much better than the Wisdom stat. As a spirit shaman you are communing with the spirits to gain your abilities, you're interacting with the spirits to get something (your class abilities). Using wisdom is nothing more than a numbers bump really, that way you can double dip and get the save bonuses.
I'd say make the casting/primary stat Charisma and lose the spell bump every level and you have yourself a balanced class though.
Those are some good points, so allow me to elaborate on why we chose the things we did.
First, our bump in spells known was not a "let's boost it to boost it" move. We compared the class to the sorcerer, which it was balanced against in 3.5 when it was created. Then we compared it to the sorcerer & oracle in pathfinder before adjusting anything. We agreed that with the boons a spirit shaman gains (wizard advancement, able to swap spells per day) it should lag behind the other classes in terms of spells known. But only ever knowing 3 spells per level is a harsh reality, even if she can swap them out at the end of the day. This is especially true when you consider that the spirit shaman can't take advantage of metamagic the way true spontaneous casters can. So we agreed that a +1 bump (to spells known) at every level would be the best solution. It still lingers roughly 1 behind the sorcerer/oracle, but makes up for it with its unique spellcasting ability.
As for choosing wisdom over charisma, I personally agree. Especially with the flavor of the spirit shaman bargaining for her abilities. However, my DM felt that wisdom was the better option to showcase an innate understanding of the natural world. As for wisdom being put to saves, it actually wouldn't have mattered. Our group uses the stat coupling of 4th edition, so you choose the higher of charisma or wisdom and add that to your will save. Choosing to go with wisdom leaves it closer to the cleric, with spellcasting built on Wisdom and the class features focusing on charisma.
I hope that sheds some light on it.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Pardon my confusion, but how is a class that required two separate casting stats "widely considered the most powerful 3.5 spellcaster?"
The class had access to the whole of the Druid class, but didn't gain the Animal Comp or the Wild Shaping. Instead it gain insanely (but not all that breaking) powerful vs "spirit" things and a number of solid abilities.
What made the class (in pretty much every circle I was involved) so good was access to one of the top spell lists in a spontaneous manner that required only resting to retool.
So it had the benefits of Spontaneous casting without any of the disadvantages. It was a Sorcerer that could change their spells every day. It requires separate casting/spellDC stats and if you don't maintain you just created a more powerful caster than the Sorcerer or Oracle.
If you don't see this is a problem, a "Mac Truck sized hole" you have created, then I probably can't make you understand. I'd recommend playing your modified class, then ask all your power gamers to play it and then ask them which they would rather play. The Spirit Shaman with these changes or the Oracle or Sorcerer?
To be clear, if you choose to ditch the MAD then you must also ditch the "change my spells daily" mechanic and make them exactly like Sorcerer/Oracle with this line "Unlike other divine spellcasters, an oracle’s selection of spells is extremely limited. An oracle begins play knowing x, y z"
Pardon my confusion, but how is a class that required two separate casting stats "widely considered the most powerful 3.5 spellcaster?"The class had access to the whole of the Druid class, but didn't gain the Animal Comp or the Wild Shaping. Instead it gain insanely (but not all that breaking) powerful vs "spirit" things and a number of solid abilities.
What made the class (in pretty much every circle I was involved) so good was access to one of the top spell lists in a spontaneous manner that required only resting to retool.
So it had the benefits of Spontaneous casting without any of the disadvantages. It was a Sorcerer that could change their spells every day. It requires separate casting/spellDC stats and if you don't maintain you just created a more powerful caster than the Sorcerer or Oracle.
If you don't see this is a problem, a "Mac Truck sized hole" you have created, then I probably can't make you understand. I'd recommend playing your modified class, then ask all your power gamers to play it and then ask them which they would rather play. The Spirit Shaman with these changes or the Oracle or Sorcerer?
To be clear, if you choose to ditch the MAD then you must also ditch the "change my spells daily" mechanic and make them exactly like Sorcerer/Oracle with this line "Unlike other divine spellcasters, an oracle’s selection of spells is extremely limited. An oracle begins play knowing x, y z"
James, I don't discount your views here, but I feel like they're colored from playing with people who really strive to break the system. Without access to the previous splat books, the current druid spell list is well built but fairly tame when compared to other full casters. It's always been my opinion that druids got extra goodies (wildshape, a companion) because they didn't have as strong of a spell list.
As far as "insanely powerful" abilities, I've gotta disagree. Going ethereal for a number of rounds a day is awesome & powerful, and 1/week resurrect is very powerful as well.. but past that, really? Chastise Spirits can be very strong when fighting Elementals, Fey, or incorporeal undead, but I've never found any of those to be particularly common in the games we run. In fact, I'm not sure we've ever fought a Fey, and elementals always seem to be once or twice a campaign- same as incorporeal undead. I'm more concerned with the fact that I can't drop my "spirit nuke" in a many situations from the lack of spirits and the fact that a good chunk of the summon nature's ally list can be considered "Spirits." Again, the lack of splat books really reigns in this spirit shaman's power.
So, back on track, does anyone have an suggestions to building a decent archer out of the spirit shaman?
James, I don't discount your views here, but I feel like they're colored from playing with people who really strive to break the system. Without access to the previous splat books, the current druid spell list is well built but fairly tame when compared to other full casters. It's always been my opinion that druids got extra goodies (wildshape, a companion) because they didn't have as strong of a spell list.As far as "insanely powerful" abilities, I've gotta disagree. Going ethereal for a number of rounds a day is awesome &...
Actually one of the biggest strengths of the core druid was the SNA spell line. The pure amount of appropriate creatures that could be summoned depending on the situation was extremely useful. It allowed for choosing spells that you thought would be appropriate and still keep utility in case something "popped up" that you weren't expecting.
Again, I can only say that being able to swap out a spontaneous caster list day to day, warrants low spells known. There is a reason that they have so few spells known, swapping is no small part of that. Spontaneous casters usually have to stick to a static number, not enforcing that limitation should have a drawback. That drawback was even fewer spells know.
I'm not going to say the class was super powerful. I'm just going to reiterate that the spell bump is not needed by any stretch of imagination. Being able to cherry pick the spell list everyday... That is worth A LOT and you should have significantly fewer spells everyday because of it, part of it actually being considered balanced.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm not going to say the class was super powerful ... That is worth A LOT and you should have significantly fewer spells everyday because of it, part of it actually being considered balanced.
I'm not sure if it is with these changes "super powerful", but it is certainly in my view the most powerful spell casting class in the game (with his changes.)
James, I don't discount your views here, but I feel like they're colored from playing with people who really strive to break the system.
You don't have to take my advice, but if you do this you are saying "if you want to be a powerful spellcasting PC take this class."