I'm starting up a Serpent's Skull campaign and one of my players has a great concept for a fighter. Basically, a no-armor, savage fighter who uses a shield and spear. Think african tribal warrior. But he couldn't find an archetype or build that worked for him, so he made his own. I'm not very experienced with building custom classes, so I thought I'd post it here and see what people have to say about it. Is it balanced? How does it compare to other archetypes from the APG?
Here is his write up:
In preparing this, I was guided by several considerations. The largest, of course, is how in the world a non-armored fighter replaces the AC gained by armor. At first level, a fighter reasonably has +5 AC from armor (scale mail being easily in the reach of most starting characters); by third level this likely increases to +6 or +7. By 10th level or so, to judge by pregens in official Paizo adventures, +4 chainmail or +2 full plate isn’t terribly uncommon, for a total of +10 or +11. At level 14 or 15 you see characters with +5 full plate, for +14 with up to +5 DEX bonus allowed with Armor Training. That’s what this archetype needs to replace for a fighter to assume his proper tanking role.
Some of this can obviously come from magic items, but the problems there are obvious. Magic armor is fairly plentiful, and a warrior-type doesn’t have competition for it, especially the heavier types. Non-armor AC items are relatively rare, and a fighter would have to fight everyone else for them. In addition to that, bracers, amulets, rings, cloaks, whatever, all take up magic item slots that armored fighters have free. Obviously this is only a partial solution, and one can’t expect the GM to take the cheesy route of throwing in a lot more of these items in place of the armor that would logically be there. For my purposes I’ve assumed that this archetype would have access to magic to provide a +1 bonus beginning at level 3 and increasing by +1 for every two levels thereafter. Obviously I have no clue whether this is necessarily a realistic expectation in this game – or even in 3.X in general. I’m flying by the seat of my pants, but that was what I keyed my calculations off of. The complication – and I’m not sure how to quantify this – is that fighters with armor would also be expected to take advantage of much of this. That is to say, a fighter could well use Ring of Protection or an Amulet of Natural Armor.
Feats are another way a fighter can make up some armor class ground, but the options there are pretty limited, in my opinion. Dodge, Shield Focus, and Greater Shield Focus each give +1 AC, but this doesn’t really make up much ground – especially because many, if not most, fighters could be expected to take these anyway in the course of a normal build.
A more fruitful way to make up some AC points is with the shield. Since the shield is this archetype’s only armor, it can be assumed that they would become highly proficient in its use and employ it in innovative ways, and therefore gain a greater bonus from it – above and beyond the bonuses give by magical shields, which I haven’t included in my calculations since I assume them to be the same for fighters with and without this archetype.
The DEX bonus allowed is another consideration; obviously it’s limited by armor type worn, but the thing is that, under normal circumstances, I don’t think it’s limited that much. By 7th level, a fighter in a breastplate can have up to a +5 DEX bonus, and one wearing full plate can have +3. I would assume (and again, I’m operating from assumptions because I have no first-hand experience with fighters at that level) that most fighters don’t have a issue operating under those caps except when under the influence of something like Cat’s Grace or a Belt of You’re Really Dexterous.
So, without further ado:
The tribal warrior is the fighting man of the savannahs and jungles who eschews encumbering armor for the fleetness of his own feet and the defensive properties of his shield.
Class Skills: Add Acrobatics, Knowledge: Nature; remove Knowledge: Engineering.
Elusive Warrior: The Tribal Warrior gains the Dodge feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for this feat. This replaces the Light Armor Familiarity feat.
Cowhide and Wood: The Tribal Warrior gains the Shield Focus feat. This feature replaces the Medium Armor Proficiency feat.
Hard Sinew, Fleet Feet: The Tribal Warrior gains a +2 natural armor bonus to AC at 1st level when wearing no armor (shields are allowed). This bonus increases by +1 at 3rd level and at every fifth level thereafter, to a maximum of +6 at 18th level. This replaces the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat.
My Shield is My Life: At 1st level, the Tribal Warrior gains a +2 shield bonus to AC when using a shield and wearing no armor. This bonus increases by +1 at 3rd level and at every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6 at 19th level. This replaces Armor Training 1-5.
Shield of the Fearless: At 19th level, the Tribal Warrior gains DR 5/- when he is using a shield and not wearing armor.
The armor class bonuses break down as follows:
Level....HSFF....MSiML
....1...........2..........2
....2...........2..........2
....3...........3..........3
....4...........3..........3
....5...........3..........3
....6...........3..........3
....7...........3..........4
....8...........4..........4
....9...........4..........4
...10...........4..........4
...11...........4..........5
...12...........4..........5
...13...........5..........5
...14...........5..........5
...15...........5..........6
...16...........5..........6
...17...........5..........6
...18...........6..........6
It might be easier to just say:
AC Bonus (Ex): [copy all of monk ac bonus text here (omit the part about shields)]. This ability replaces Armor Proficiency [light, medium, heavy].
Active Defense (Ex): [copy all of shielded fighter active defense text here]. The fighter loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Shield Mastery (Ex): [copy all of shielded fighter shield mastery text here]
Doing this makes all the appropriate changes to the class in order for the character to be played, and stays within previously established pathfinder rules.
Active Defense (Ex): [copy all of shielded fighter active defense text here]. The fighter loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
The issue with this is that it converts what should be a very active participant on the battlefield into a much more passive archetype. As the player conceives it, the fighter would be very offensive-minded and so would seldom if ever fight defensively.
But a shield is a defensive tool, first and foremost. Its ability to do damage is a secondary ability, that is why you lose the shield bonus if you bash with it.
What his build is attempting to do, is gain a ton of benefits with absolutely no drawbacks, restrictions, or spending of actions. With his build, he is gaining AC without having to pay the associated cost of 1) having to wear armor 2) using a level to gain spells for buffing 3) having to use skill points to get UMD and use wands to buff up his AC. In other word, all the benefits, none of the drawbacks.
If he wants an offensive character, then use two weapons or a two-handed weapon.
Adding My Shield is My life takes a heavy shield (+2), that is enchantable (+5) and the shield feats for another +2 gives us a shield bonus of +15, that is a large number. The only other class capable of that is the Holy Vindicator, who has to sacrifice a use of channel energy in order to gain that bonus AND it goes away after the first hit.
In addition he is giving himself Natural Armor, which I have a hard time wrapping my head around. Dragon Disciples get it, but then, their skin starts to turn into dragonscales, so it makes sense. I have treated many boxers, and let me tell you, their skin is cut and bleeds just like everyone elses, and if anyone would have a thicker hide than the rest of us, they would.
From a GM standpoint, his character is extremely abusable, the AC bonuses come in a lovely spot. I am sure he can get mage armor put on for a +4 armor bonus...or Bracers of Defense..for a +8. Let us not forget that Magic Vestment (a cheap spell) can also be cast on clothes...so..lets look at his AC from this standpoint...
Armor Bonus ... Bracers of Armor ... +8
Shield Bonus .. paragraph 2 ........ +15
Dex Bonus ..... prolly a 20 ........ +5
Deflection .... Ring of Protect +5 .. +5
Dodge Bonus ... feats at least ...... +1
Natural Armor . Above + Amulet ...... +11
Enhance Armor Bonus .. Magic Vest ... +5
We are already at AC 60, and we haven't even started to add in other types of buffs that you can snag from friendlies.
The more I think about his modifications, the more issues I find with them. I can understand him wanting to create a specific character idea, but the mechanics to create what he wants to create are already there.
**************************************
I still stand by the Monk AC Bonus for him. He is already getting his dexterity to AC, and wisdom makes sense in terms of a type of insight bonus. This effectively turns him into a monk that trades all of his abilities to be a better warrior, using all martial weapons and shields...which is what it sounds like he wants to play. A monk/fighter hybrid that specializes in a style.
I chose the shielded fighter because, armor training is never going to apply to the character, and he needs something to be of use to his character in that slot. The ability to use his shield and be a team player sounded like a good idea. In all honesty, it may be the best idea to make him pick an alternate fighter theme to follow that better represents his character, such as Phalanx fighter. That will allow him to replace Armor Training 1,2,3,4 with whatever he wants instead of just giving himself the equivalent of +3 Full Plate Armor without having to suffer any of the penalties.
But a shield is a defensive tool, first and foremost. Its ability to do damage is a secondary ability, that is why you lose the shield bonus if you bash with it.
What his build is attempting to do, is gain a ton of benefits with absolutely no drawbacks, restrictions, or spending of actions. With his build, he is gaining AC without having to pay the associated cost of 1) having to wear armor 2) using a level to gain spells for buffing 3) having to use skill points to get UMD and use wands to buff up his AC. In other word, all the benefits, none of the drawbacks.
If he wants an offensive character, then use two weapons or a two-handed weapon.
Adding My Shield is My life takes a heavy shield (+2), that is enchantable (+5) and the shield feats for another +2 gives us a shield bonus of +15, that is a large number. The only other class capable of that is the Holy Vindicator, who has to sacrifice a use of channel energy in order to gain that bonus AND it goes away after the first hit.
In addition he is giving himself Natural Armor, which I have a hard time wrapping my head around. Dragon Disciples get it, but then, their skin starts to turn into dragonscales, so it makes sense. I have treated many boxers, and let me tell you, their skin is cut and bleeds just like everyone elses, and if anyone would have a thicker hide than the rest of us, they would.
From a GM standpoint, his character is extremely abusable, the AC bonuses come in a lovely spot. I am sure he can get mage armor put on for a +4 armor bonus...or Bracers of Defense..for a +8. Let us not forget that Magic Vestment (a cheap spell) can also be cast on clothes...so..lets look at his AC from this standpoint...
Armor Bonus ... Bracers of Armor ... +8
Shield Bonus .. paragraph 2 ........ +15
Dex Bonus ..... prolly a 20 ........ +5
Deflection .... Ring of Protect +5 .. +5
Dodge Bonus ... feats at least ...... +1
Natural Armor . Above + Amulet ...... +11
Enhance Armor Bonus .. Magic Vest ... +5We are already at AC 60, and we...
Hi,
This is the player in question. I don't have any experience with high level 3.anything play, so I had no idea if this writeup was overpowered, underpowered, or whatever. The big question I had -- and still have in spite of your excellent and thoughtful response -- is how realistic is it to expect a fighter to monopolize essentially all the AC boosting items and spells a given party gets? I understand that when looking at a class design you need to factor in the most abusive possible implications of the elements, but in practice, when the items and spells that buff AC are precisely the same items that everyone else in the party will be fighting over, how likely is it that one PC will end up with all of them, or even more than a couple of them? I'm not asking to provoke an argument, I really want to know because I have no experience with the system at high levels and I genuinely don't know how APs tend to dispense magical items. If the AC-buffing things are much more common than I assumed, then I can certainly see this being broken.
Also, building a fighter with a high Wisdom score seems...impossible. Again, IMO. You already need high STR, high DEX, and high CON. You need to keep INT at 10 unless you genuinely don't want any skill points, and you can only lower CHA so far. Where are the points coming from to make that a viable build? Again, I'm not picking a fight, I'm asking for information on how the system develops characters.
Thanks again for your answer. It really is an excellent and soundly reasoned response.
Gregg
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The issue with this is that it converts what should be a very active participant on the battlefield into a much more passive archetype. As the player conceives it, the fighter would be very offensive-minded and so would seldom if ever fight defensively.
Active Defense (Ex): [copy all of shielded fighter active defense text here]. The fighter loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Thing is I don't see a whole lot of offensive abilities in the write up. I would recommend reconsidering the shielded fighter. If you really want to focus on offense than maybe a MC monk/fighter build. That might fit the bill. You may also want to consider weapons master and choose shield? That would be rather offensive and different.
The availability of magic items depends on your GM. In the typical Pathfinder game, you can pretty much buy anything you want. If you are playing Pathfinder Society-type rules, then as soon as a magic item is found, every player can spend their money to purchase whatever magic items they want [see Pathfinder Society Booklet]. So, this is less of a question for you, and more of a question for the GM and his setting.
Getting back to your character, Pathfinder is a pretty rigid system, because of the ump-teen different arrays of stacking bonuses. It is a lot to keep track of. When you give a class a particular ability that focuses purely on one thing, that class begins to tip the scales of balance, and the scales tip like a mile-long teter-toter, it happens really fast.
As for your party...mage armor lasts 1hr/lvl, and it would be in the wizards best interest to have his body guard be as difficult to hit as possible. But, this comes down to your fellow players. If they are all about teamwork, then I am sure they will buff you. If they are all out for themselves, there probably are not going to be many buffs coming your way.
I can actually see where you are coming from with this character. You are looking to player a fighter that isn't covered head-to-toe in steel. Unfortunately, pathfinder does not have a good [ipure[/i] core class that can cover this mechanic. But there is no reason why you could not multiclass, there are several multiclassing options that may work better for you. One that springs to mind...
Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 8/Eldritch Knight 5/ Sorcerer 1/Figher 1
This build will net you quite a few nice bonuses to your armor class (+5 natural armor) and you can buff yourself. For a varient, since I see that you want to be a "tribal" warrior. Say that it is your patron Animal and take spells that reflect your animal. As you gain your Dragon Disciple powers, say that it is the spirit of the jungle infusing your spirit with more and more power.
This is just one example of many ways you can multiclass your character in order to build what you are imagining in your mind, without having to create a new alternative theme :)
PS - I do like your character idea :)
The naked warrior archtype for the barbarian sounds close to what you want (with the exception that you want a fighter of course) so might I suggest just taking the benefits from that archtype and replacing the armor training with it? Then maybe give the leaping attack from the mobile fighter in place of weapon training one? With the mobile fighting features replacing later weapon training (instead of armor training)?
I think that would get you about where you want to be.
The core of the issue with me producing an overpowered archetype is that spent many, many years back in the day playing 1st Ed and then several years playing 2nd, so the whole "abilities above 18" thing is still a little new to me. Back then, it required an Act of [a] God to get that! Then too, things were much more cut-and-dried over what you could wear with armor and what you couldn't, etc. So I was proceeding from some old thought-patterns that were no longer valid. Don't make me tell you darn kids to get off my lawn.
That and, ummm...I didn't realize you kept your shield bonus when you were flat-footed. <blush> What can I say? I've never played a character in Pathfinder that used a shield. :-)
Well you basic *ideas* on what you were doing were good, and the thought behind the justifications -- also it wasn't *too* over the line honestly (an AC 60 isn't impossible as it stands at level 20 anyways).
Well you basic *ideas* on what you were doing were good, and the thought behind the justifications -- also it wasn't *too* over the line honestly (an AC 60 isn't impossible as it stands at level 20 anyways).
Good Heavens! It isn't? *boggles*