heres an npc concept i had in mind, will you help me stat it out Ashiel? i know it's a little cliche. as well as a borderline mary sue. but it's nice to have a premade npc for when i do start running a campaign.Why yes I will. I'll try to put her in my next post with Loaba's.
thanks. said npc may become a future pc at one point.
So, just how high is Mr. War-Starter-Guy's CHA? And, I mean, I'm not saying you're a swishy kinda fish, or anything like that (it'd be okay if you were, don't get me wrong), just how handsome would you say he was?
Did you read the whole post or just the part you wanted? Cha isn't just appearance, it includes leadership [Started a war], person magnetism [led a nation], personanity and appearance. So to answer you question. A easy 14-16 range plus ranks and feats to bolster the social rolls.
Mr. Fishy has never met the man but pictures and actor disguised to look like him were not ugly. Look at Churchhill a wit and a statesmen.
Mr. Fishy never said you have to be pretty to have a high charisma. Mr. Fishy said a 7 Charisma is low and that is a cited fact it even has a penalty -2.
Here's a good example of a person with Charisma Mr. Fishy. Mr. Fishy is a cartoon fishy that speaks in the third person argues with anyone over anything and has a fan thread [Mr. Fishy Fan Club] and has had posters post to note that Mr. Fishy is funny even the people Mr. Fishy disagrees with have said it was an interesting and entertaining argument.
So what would Mr. Fishy's Charisma be?...Mr. Fishy's portrait is to the left. You can check Mr. Fishy page if you need to.
You when to bed? Ok Mr. Fishy see,er post you tomorrow.
Okay - here it is...
I have a rather strange lad, knows a thing or two about the mystical arts. He's no weakling mind you, strong and hale as any man from his village. He has a wanderlust about him, can't wait to see world and all that's in it.
Oh yeah, he NEVER thinks things through and ALWAYS fires from the hip.
Ok! Let's give this a shot. Ok, I'm guessing by mystical you probably mean magical. Depending on what magic you have in mind we could easily go with bard, cleric, druid, ranger, sorcerer, or wizard. Now since you want him to be strong, and buff, and likewise knowledgeable about magic, my first impulse would be bard, cleric, or druid since all of those a very easy to gish and capitalize on mixing magic and abilities.
Let's do a surprise and go with the new Magus class. ^-^
We shall call him Hale, after the word you used to describe him.
Hale 15 Point Buy
1st Level Human Magus
Init +6, Perception +1
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +2 dexterity)
Hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3
Melee Ranseur +2 (2d4+3, reach, disarm) or Heavy Flail +2 (1d10+3, disarm, trip) or Bladed Gauntlet +2 (1d4+2)
Ranged Sling +2 (1d4+2) or +2 Acid Splash (1d3, touch)
Magus Spells (CL 1, Concentration +3)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +0, CMB +2, CMD 14
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
Abilities - cantrips, spellstrike
Skills (6/level) - Climb +6, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Ride +6, Spellcraft +6, Swim +6
Overview: Hale's a tough fellow who's grown up tough. He's always been that strange kid on the block, and he always seems to know a little too much about those strange magic arts. His father was an a militiaman who taught him how to fight, and his mother who died during childbirth was an wizard. When he was a young boy he found her spellbook in their attic and studied the notes until he was a self-taught magus. Having grown so tired of not fitting in his town and wanting to the see the world he set out to make his destiny. Hale's a strong and capable youth who's smart but very reckless. He toys with magic like it was a game, and he's quick to anger and quicker to show off. He equipped himself with money he made repairing items around town with cantrips, and set out. He chose a ranseur due to the lessons his father gave him in fighting goblins and a heavy flail because he liked the style of the weapon, and both capitalize on his impressive strength (getting that 1.5 strength bonus). He's a good martial/magic hybrid for any group.
His feats are chosen to maximize his potential with his glaive and likewise help him get to act first in combat, allowing him to better decide whether to try and knock his enemies unconscious before they act, cast another spell, or retreat.
2nd Level Human Magus
Init +6, Perception +1
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 dexterity)
Hp 16 (2d8+4)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +4
Melee Mwk Ranseur +4 (2d4+3, reach, disarm) or Mwk Heavy Flail +4 (1d10+3, disarm, trip) or Bladed Gauntlet +3 (1d4+2)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+2) or +3 Acid Splash (1d3, touch)
Magus Spells (CL 2, Concentration +4)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +1, CMB +3, CMD 15
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
Abilities - cantrips, spellstrike, spell combat
Skills (6/level) - Climb +7, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Ride +6, Spellcraft +7, Swim +7, Use Magic Device +2, Knowledge (Planes) +6
Overview: At 2nd level, Hale's purchased a chain shirt and bought a masterwork ranseur and heavy flail. He's learned to use his spells while fighting with his bladed gauntlet, but he doesn't because he finds it too risky to be casting spells in melee right now. He improves his athletic skills and studies up on planar creatures and is thinking of summoning a familiar in the future...
3rd Level Human Magus
Init +6, Perception +1
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 dexterity)
Hp 23 (3d8+6)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +4
Melee Mwk Ranseur +5 (2d4+3, reach) or Mwk Heavy Flail +5 (1d10+3, disarm, trip) or Bladed Gauntlet +4 (1d4+2)
Ranged Sling +4 (1d4+2) or +4 Acid Splash (1d3, touch)
Magus Spells (CL 3, Concentration +5)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +2, CMB +4, CMD 16
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item
Abilities - cantrips, spellstrike, spell combat, magus arcana (familiar)
Skills (6/level) - Climb +8, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Ride +6, Spellcraft +8, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +4, Knowledge (Planes) +6
Overview: At 3rd level, Hale continues to improve and has taken Craft Wondrous Item and summoned a rat familiar to accompany him and his party, granting him a +2 fortitude bonus. Each night before he sleeps, he casts shocking grasp before preparing his spells. He then has a touch spell readied each day, and will often use it as his opening attack in a battle. As his enemies get increasingly more dangerous, he has taken to channeling his shocking grasps through his ranseur to inflict extra damage from a safer distance, which couples well with his enlarge person. He's taken craft wondrous item to make himself and his allies magical equipment. He has begun work on a masterwork cloak (+2 stealth) of resistance +1.
4th Level Human Magus
Init +6, Perception +1
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 dexterity)
Hp 29 (4d8+8)
Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +6
Melee Mwk Ranseur +6 (2d4+3+1, reach) or Mwk Heavy Flail +6 (1d10+3, disarm, trip) or Bladed Gauntlet +5 (1d4+2)
Ranged Sling +5 (1d4+2) or +5 Acid Splash (1d3, touch)
Magus Spells (CL 4, Concentration +7)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +3, CMB +5, CMD 17
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item
Abilities - cantrips, spellstrike, spell combat, magus arcana (familiar), arcane weapon +1
Skills (6/level) - Climb +9, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Ride +6, Spellcraft +9, Swim +9, Use Magic Device +5, Knowledge (Planes) +6, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Stealth +4
Overview: At 4th level, Hale's successfully crafted his Cloak of Resistance, increased his Intelligence, and Crafted a Headband of Intellect +1. He's chosen his masterwork ranseur as his arcane weapon, and becomes an excellent skirmisher. Having met up with Sigfried, Laerithe, and Maldrex in his previous adventures, he has dropped colorspray from his arsenal to add more burst damage via channeled shocking grasps (from behind the safety of Sigfried and Laerithe) while he aids them in flanking with their combined reach weapons. He purchases a mithril chain shirt and begins enchanting it with a 5/day enlarge person spell to free up some of his spell slots.
5th Level Human Magus
Init +6, Perception +1
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 dexterity)
Hp 36 (5d8+10)
Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +6
Melee Mwk Ranseur +6 (2d4+3+1, reach) or Mwk Heavy Flail +6 (1d10+3, disarm, trip) or Bladed Gauntlet +5 (1d4+2)
Ranged Sling +5 (1d4+2) or +5 Acid Splash (1d3, touch)
Magus Spells (CL 5, Concentration +8)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +3, CMB +5, CMD 17
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Wand, Craft Magic Arms & Armor
Abilities - cantrips, spellstrike, spell combat, magus arcana (familiar), arcane weapon +1
Skills (6/level) - Climb +10, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Ride +6, Spellcraft +10, Swim +10, Use Magic Device +6, Knowledge (Planes) +6, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Stealth +6
Overview: At 5th level, Hale's doing excellent. He picks up Craft Magic Arms and Armor for himself and his friends, as well as Craft Wand to make spell-trigger items. He then crafted a 5/day enlarge person enchantment into his armor as a spell-trigger, freeing up his own casting for more shocking grasps as they are now a very potent +5d6 damage. His next plan is to enchant his ranseur as a wand in the near future. He ups his skills and enhances his Stealth a bit, since he has no armor check penalty.
Summary: Hale is an excellent surprise assailant. He uses his enlarge person spell combined with his spellstrike ability to deliver damaging attacks from behind Sigfried and Laerithe, while benefiting from Haldrex's bardic music. He uses his 2nd level spells defensively (mirror image and blur) to offset his lower armor class. He is a valued member of the party and definitely a solid 2nd liner, and off-caster.
Due to time constraints, I'll have to post Shuriken Nekogami's young lady next, but from what I see, she'll definitely be a bard.
I'd wonder if anyone would like to put these guys together as pregens and play some games with them. ^-^
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Ashiel, I still have a character to submit, but I assume last time I posted it was too vague; I'll flesh it out a bit while still keeping race and class undetermined.
[Character] was educated in history and archeology, and possibly arcana, but found that he enjoyed exploring musty tombs and using his practical skills over poring over dry books at the university. He has a mean right cross, and doesn't hesitate to use it if he thinks he can get a cheap shot in. His primary goal is knowledge, but knowledge that he can gain not by reading, but by exploring.
Interesting enough? :o
Ash - Hale is a fine character, my only nit-pik is that both he and Sig are sporting the same array. That's minor, be cause they're very different characters. Interestingly enough, Hale really doesn't try to change his attitude a la Sig.
Also, great name. I am of a serious mind to lift this character.
Mr. Fishy - sometimes Family Loaba deigns to entertain guests. Mrs. Loaba frowns on internet usage during those times. I know, it's a foreign concept all the way around.
Christ, you're making me a fan of 15 Point-buy.
It is actually not that bad. It just takes some getting used to. I started fooling around with it for making NPC's, and they turned out pretty well.
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Young mistress Umbriere Nox Astrum Lunas is an extremely sickly young girl whom was concieved in a library one inspiring midnight during the winter on a friday the 13th with an unusual planetary alignment. she is suffering from an unnamed perpetual illness. her excellency is the wealthy yet sickly daughter of a noble librarian who fell in love with her assistant. said librarian was the cousin of the local baron. she has read a great variety of books pertaining to various subjects due to a combination of her perpetual illness and excess of time. she was homeschooled in the fine arts of dance, social ettiquette, mathematics, and calligraphy by the finest of tutors. in her time spent reading, she discovered that she has an affinity for illusion and enchantment related magics. she has knowledge on several subjects, is a graceful dancer and a beatufil calligrapher. she has a soothing voice that assists her in her negotiative skills alongside an elegant mastery of deception. in moments of stress or in the middle of a tangent, she breaks out into coughing fits. she has a knack for understanding things as well as for noticing disturbances in her enviroment. able to see the finest of details and understand the most abstract of concepts. though her illness leaves her light sensitive and she has a habit of eating strange mismatched combinations of entrees that do not mesh well together. she also developed a fair amount of gynmastic prowess in her early teenage years. she is rather pale from her lack of sunlight, with beautiful well maintained black hair and gorgeous crimson eyes.
This girl sounds like a bard all the way. Sounds like a full-on support bard, rather than a gishy bard like Haldrex. So let's give her a shot.
We're going to try and make her as mechanically viable as possible while still remaining effective mechanically, so here goes!Umbriere Nox Astrum Lunas 15 point buy
Yes, we have a 7 Con. This build is not for the faint of heart. ^.^;;
If it makes you feel better, I have a Paladin with a 7 Con. :P
1st Level Human Bard
Init +6, Perception +6
AC 16, touch 12, flat 15 (+2 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield)
Hp 9 (1d8+1)
Fort -2, Ref +4, Will +4
Melee Slashing Gauntlet -1 (1d4-1)
Ranged Light Crossbow +2 (1d8, 19-20) or Sling +2 (1d4-1)
Bard Spells (CL 1, Con +3)
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 7, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 14
Feats - Toughness, Improved Initiative
Abilities - Bardic knowledge, bardic performance, cantrips, countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +6, Appraise +7, Bluff +6, Craft (Painting/Calligraphy) +7, Diplomacy +6, Escape Artist +6, Perception +6, Perform (Dance) +6, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +6, Use Magic Device +6, Other Knowledges +3.
Overview: At 1st level, Umbriere has it hard. We use a portion of her starting cash, Craft (Painting/Calligraphy) and two weeks of game time to produce a few pieces of art worth 25.5 gold pieces each, which we will use in addition to her starting to purchase a heavy wooden shield, leather armor, four flasks of acid, some adventuring equipment, and an ox to carry her gear. Her Bardic Knowledge represents her schooling in so many different subjects, which her +3 intelligence applies to, allowing her to save some skill points at 1st level while being well versed in countless subjects.
Our first level will be Umbriere's biggest hurdle, and she'll need to rely on her party for protection (her favorite combat tactic at first should likely be fall prone + total defense while behind the other party members, which would grant her a 22 AC vs ranged attacks).
While she's on the ground, cowering, she can use silent image to produce a wall in front of her allies, which provides concealment to them - but she can tell them it is a fake, allowing them to make their saving throw (with a +4 bonus) to see through the wall. Likewise, she will have to avoid getting hurt as often as possible. She's sick, and weak, and prone to being murdered in combat. Her skills outside of combat are stellar however, and she can easily use her bardic performance while on the ground.
If push comes to shove, she can fire and reload her light crossbow on the ground (something you cannot do with a bow). The flasks of acid can be tossed or thrown via the sling to assist in damaging brutish enemies.
2nd Level Human Bard
Init +6, Perception +7
AC 16, touch 12, flat 15 (+2 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield)
Hp 12 (2d8+0)
Fort -2, Ref +5, Will +5
Melee Slashing Gauntlet +0 (1d4-1)
Ranged Light Crossbow +3 (1d8, 19-20) or Sling +3 (1d4-1)
Bard Spells (CL 2, Con +4)
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 7, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 14
Feats - Toughness, Improved Initiative
Abilities - Bardic knowledge, bardic performance, cantrips, countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1, versatile performance, well-versed
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +7, Appraise +7, Bluff +7, Craft (Painting/Calligraphy) +7, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist +7, Perception +7, Perform (Dance) +7, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +9, Use Magic Device +7,
Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Other Knowledges +4
Overview: At 2nd level, Umbriere has adventured with Sigfried and the others and has amassed enough money to purchase a masterwork cloak (+2 stealth), added disguise self to her spells, and purchased five scrolls of cure light wounds in case of emergency, and one potion of stabilize an ally could use in a pinch. She's a little safer than she used to be, but adventuring is tough and she can't handle extended marches at all.
Having gained impressive knowledge with religious things, she cannot help but consider the benefits of undeath with her current condition.
3rd Level Human Bard
Init +6, Perception +8
AC 18, touch 12, flat 17 (+4 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield)
Hp 15 (3d8-1)
Fort -1, Ref +5, Will +5
Melee Slashing Gauntlet +1 (1d4-1)
Ranged Light Crossbow +4 (1d8, 19-20) or Sling +4 (1d4-1)
Bard Spells (CL 3, Con +5)
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 7, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 14
Feats - Toughness, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item
Abilities - Bardic knowledge, bardic performance, cantrips, countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1, versatile performance, well-versed, inspire competence +2
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +8, Appraise +7, Bluff +8, Craft (Painting/Calligraphy) +7, Diplomacy +8, Escape Artist +8, Perception +8, Perform (Dance) +8, Spellcraft +9, Stealth +10, Use Magic Device +8,
Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Knowledge (Planes) +8, Other Knowledges +4
Overview: At 3rd level, Umbriere has learned to craft wondrous items, learned to heal the wounds of herself and her allies, but she's still sickly and weak. Fortunately she's upgraded her armor to a mithril chain shirt, and she's using bardic performance like it was her job. She continues spreading out her knowledges further and further. She's taken Craft Wondrous Item and has begun crafting a circlet of charisma +1, and then she crafts a cloak of resistance +1 from her masterwork cloak.
4th Level Human Bard
Init +6, Perception +9
AC 18, touch 12, flat 17 (+4 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield)
Hp 17 (4d8-2)
Fort +0, Ref +7, Will +7
Melee Slashing Gauntlet +1 (1d4-1)
Ranged Light Crossbow +4 (1d8, 19-20) or Sling +4 (1d4-1)
Bard Spells (CL 3, Con +5)
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 7, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16 (15)
Feats - Toughness, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item
Abilities - Bardic knowledge, bardic performance, cantrips, countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1, versatile performance, well-versed, inspire competence +2
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +9, Appraise +7, Bluff +9, Craft (Painting/Calligraphy) +7, Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist +9, Perception +9, Perform (Dance) +9, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +11, Use Magic Device +9, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +11, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (Planes) +9, Other Knowledges +5
Overview: At 4th level, Umbriere is finally coming into her own. She's still a porcelain doll but now with invisibility and glitterdust she should be able to contribute much more. She's taken to carrying antitoxins around with her, since poison is a very real threat to her, as well as the disease equivalent item (see d20pfsrd.com). She's crafted herself the cloak and headband, and she then crafts a brooch of shielding to protect her from magic missiles.
5th Level Human Bard
Init +6, Perception +10
AC 18, touch 12, flat 17 (+4 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield)
Hp 21 (4d8)
Fort +0, Ref +7, Will +7
Melee Slashing Gauntlet +1 (1d4-1)
Ranged Light Crossbow +4 (1d8, 19-20) or Sling +4 (1d4-1)
Bard Spells (CL 3, Con +5)
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 8 (7), Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16 (15)
Feats - Toughness, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Wand
Abilities - Bardic knowledge, bardic performance, cantrips, countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +2, versatile performance, well-versed, inspire competence +2, loremaster 1/day
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +10, Appraise +7, Bluff +10, Craft (Painting/Calligraphy) +7, Diplomacy +10, Escape Artist +10, Perception +10, Perform (Dance) +10, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +12, Use Magic Device +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +12, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (Planes) +9, Knowledge (Local) +9, Other Knowledges +5
Overview: At 5th level, Umbriere has learned silence which can allow her to take out enemy spellcasters by casting silence on a rock and then using mage-hand to keep the spellcasters within the radius of the silence. She also crafted a Amulet of Health +1 to help with her illness, bringing her Con to 8 from 7. Her tactics are similar to before and her inspire courage has reached +2, which is wonderful. With her Knowledge Religion as high as it is, she can take 10 and know what a Lich is; and with Craft Wondrous Item already under her belt - she may find an unusual cure for her terrible sickness. Meanwhile she also takes Craft Wand so she can begin crafting spell-trigger items, or combining it with Craft Wondrous to make x/day spell-trigger items (such as enchanting her mithral chain shirt to turn her invisible once per day, or getting Hale to help her make it a mirror-image 2/day shirt).
Notes: This is a very, very difficult character to play. She's optimized for what she does, and a great amount of her resources are going into "don't die" to try and cover up her pitiful hit points and fortitude deficiencies. The major saving grace is she'd make for a good candidate for undeath, and as a bard she qualifies for lichdom, or possibly some other form of undeath. I'd picture her less as the shriveled undead and more like the porcelain-doll kind.
For the first time in her life she would be free from her sickness, and her charisma would suddenly take the place of her Constitution, providing her with impressive amounts of stamina and resiliency. This is what you might consider long-term goals.
How's that Shuriken Nekogami?
Ashiel, I still have a character to submit, but I assume last time I posted it was too vague; I'll flesh it out a bit while still keeping race and class undetermined.
[Character] was educated in history and archeology, and possibly arcana, but found that he enjoyed exploring musty tombs and using his practical skills over poring over dry books at the university. He has a mean right cross, and doesn't hesitate to use it if he thinks he can get a cheap shot in. His primary goal is knowledge, but knowledge that he can gain not by reading, but by exploring.
Interesting enough? :o
Sure, I'll give it a try tomorrow I think. I've posted 5 1st-5th level character writeups today, and I'm getting a little drained mentally. ^-^
Ash - Hale is a fine character, my only nit-pik is that both he and Sig are sporting the same array. That's minor, be cause they're very different characters. Interestingly enough, Hale really doesn't try to change his attitude a la Sig.
Also, great name. I am of a serious mind to lift this character.
I'm glad to hear it. ^-^
Also yes, the stat array is the same but the characters are amazingly different in concept and playstyle (even with both using pole-arms, which are included with almost every character because having a pole-arm is amazingly useful).And yes! You are absolutely right. Hale doesn't do squat to try and be better at socializing. You'll notice he's advancing Intimidate instead of the others, so while Sigfried is working on becoming a Charismatic fellow, Hale is becoming scarier. Hale's charisma doesn't come from his inability to relate, but from him being a creepy, cocky, reckless spell-slinger. ^_^
Once again, I would love to see this party together (Sigfried, Laerithe, Hale, Maldrex, and Umbriere). While they (as a party) are very light on arcane casters, they have a lot of members with use magic device and at least partial spellcasting, and virtually all the primary warrior types can comfortably swap their weapons around, and multiple characters wielding reach weapons is actually incredibly powerful (notice that your enemies must deal with far many more AoO problems, and your ability to flank and aid-another from around the map is absolutely huge).
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Charisma 7 super model example? Please name an example.
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.The SRD says "and" not "or". So that would be a combination of all right?
So Siegfried is Handsome[appearance]and dashing [personal magetism?] and his personality and leadership ability is lacking?Ok so if Mr. Fishy makes a character with a 7 dex and give him ranks in acrobatics and call him acrobatic does his character becomes more agile better balanced?
Mr. Fishy isn't telling you what Charisma is the SRD seems to have an opinion though.
I've been around women who had physical beauty to drive a man to his knees and a personality/attitude that absolutely made me want to leave their presence post haste.
And I have a friend with Asperger's Syndrome, completely hot, but completely socially inept.
And Kate Moss. Supermodel with a 7 CHA in personality and leadership.
the stat array is the same but the characters are amazingly different in concept and playstyle (even with both using pole-arms, which are included with almost every character because having a pole-arm is amazingly useful).
I'd say you've proved the numbers can be the same, but the characters don't have to be. And while neither is sporting a +3 stat (yet), that doesn't mean they're unplayable either.
And yes! You are absolutely right. Hale doesn't do squat to try and be better at socializing. You'll notice he's advancing Intimidate instead of the others, so while Sigfried is working on becoming a Charismatic fellow, Hale is becoming scarier. Hale's charisma doesn't come from his inability to relate, but from him being a creepy, cocky, reckless spell-slinger.
Right - different attitudes. Hale is an A-hole, and he dares you to do something about it (family name is Callahan, and he likes to be called Dirty Hale.) Sig on the other hand, doesn't mean to be condescending or anything, it just comes out that way. He keeps up with his copies of Gentleman Adventurer, and you can see it is helping.
Once again, I would love to see this party together (Sigfried, Laerithe, Hale, Maldrex, and Umbriere). While they (as a party) are very light on arcane casters, they have a lot of members with use magic device and at least partial spellcasting, and virtually all the primary warrior types can comfortably swap their weapons around, and multiple characters wielding reach weapons is actually incredibly powerful (notice that your enemies must deal with far many more AoO problems, and your ability to flank and aid-another from around the map is absolutely huge).
You've done two very important things here - you've shown that a 15 PB is not a death sentence and that Pole Arms can be used for more than just flavor.
Well done, Ash.
I have enjoyed reading through this thread, good stuff.
Mr. Fishy - sometimes Family Loaba deigns to entertain guests. Mrs. Loaba frowns on internet usage during those times. I know, it's a foreign concept all the way around.
Ok. So do you have time now? Mr. Fishy thought you went to bed at 10:30. How dare Mr. Fishy think you sleep. So you have an answer or are we done. Mr. Fishy is cool either way.
So what would Mr. Fishy's Charisma be?...Mr. Fishy's portrait is to the left. You can check Mr. Fishy page if you need to.
I have no idea what your CHA would be, nor even your Class and level. I would expect that, however you add it up, let's say Diplomacy, your modifier is at least a +10 (maybe more.)
Diplomacy? Bluff maybe, Diplomacy? +10? The question was charisma, Mr. Fishy's charisma. Mr. Fishy's portrait is to the left.
<<<<see
Nice dodge.
Diplomacy? Bluff maybe, Diplomacy? +10? The question was charisma, Mr. Fishy's charisma. Mr. Fishy's portrait is to the left.
<<<<see
Nice dodge.
Dodge? What is this dodge that you speak of? CHA is certainly more than outward appearance, if that's what you're getting at.
Also - you're a fish, I'm a skull... It would never work, I don't swing that way.
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I think a good roleplayer should try to play the numbers to some degree.
As an extreme example, a player who is naturally good at diplomacy shouldn't roleplay his character as being a good negotiator if the character has Charisma 7 and no skill in Diplomacy - he should ideally play up the character's awkwardness, naivety etc. So the player's IC speeches shouldn't ideally be too flowery, full of acidic prose or witty comments, even if the player is capable of that.
Equally, a real-life body builder wouldn't be expected to roleplay his Str 7 character as being able to bash down doors with a single kick and sweep tavern wenches into his arms with ease, even though the player could do that.
We can see he is just as charming as a 18 charisma character. I can demonstrate my case easily enough. Please, if you wish to continue, bring me something concrete.
He is as charming as an 18 Charisma character with absolutely no training in diplomacy is, and as long as you roleplay that great. Whereas the 18 Cha character can get by on his natural looks / force of personality etc, Sigfried has to make up for his lack of natural charisma with skill.
But if an 18 Cha Bard with maxed out out Diplomacy comes along and takes an interest in the same girl as Sigfried, expect Sigfried's attempts at seduction to be blown out of the water - no matter how "dashing" you want him to seem.
The SRD says "and" not "or". So that would be a combination of all right?Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
Exactly, so an average person would have average personality, magnetism, ability to lead and appearance. For an average person to be considered handsome but still have an average Cha he would need to take a hit in one or two of those other areas.
So Sigfried who has a below average Charisma, but wants to be considered handsome (above average) must take an even greater hit on personal magnetism, ability to lead etc.
So perhaps Sigfried is handsome (but not stunningly so) but is insecure and introverted and only by really summing up all his courage and remembering his lessons in seduction is he able to woo that "slightly above average" barmaid.
So Siegfried is Handsome[appearance]and dashing [personal magetism?] and his personality and leadership ability is lacking?
I think the crux of your debate with Ashiel may be in your definition of "dashing" - you seem to equate it with personal magnetism (a facet of Charisma) but I imagine Ashiel more equates it with the words and body language learned by the study of Diplomacy. Unfortunately there is no in-game definition so reconciling a character's stats with the adjective of "dashing" is up for debate.
In the end, Sigfried will never be a James Bond equivalent - he lacks the natural charisma. He is not confident in any attempts to intimdate someone and is more easily persuaded by others (when his Cha modifier would be used to modify the DC of someone else's Diplomacy check).
However, when he really puts his mind to it he will likely be able negotiate well, seduce good looking women and fast talk the city guard - but if you look closely you'll see him sweat doing it.
And as long as the player roleplays the character that way I am fine with it.
Dodge? What is this dodge that you speak of? CHA is certainly more than outward appearance, if that's what you're getting at.
Also - you're a fish, I'm a skull... It would never work, I don't swing that way.
Dodge again. You haven't answered the question or addressed it, you've dodge it with bad, jokes?
Mr. Fishy answered your question. No evasion. So are we done?
i love what you did with umbriere. it seems to really fit. and it appears to fit her much better than a 3.5. beguiler too.
i beleive mr. fishy has at least a 14 charisma and a fairly decent amount of ranks in perform (comedy). i'd say he has it as a class skill too.
Dodge? What is this dodge that you speak of? CHA is certainly more than outward appearance, if that's what you're getting at.
Also - you're a fish, I'm a skull... It would never work, I don't swing that way.
Dodge again. You haven't answered the question or addressed it, you've dodge it with bad, jokes?
Mr. Fishy answered your question. No evasion. So are we done?
I have answered your question. You just don't like the answer.
CHA is more than outward appearance. Despite your ghoulish avatar, you probably have quite a bit of it.
Mr. Fishy is not ghoulish. He is a handsome fishy. Look at that smile. That evil glint in his eye.
Mr. Fishy's point is made then. +10 is way high.
Diplomacy? Bluff maybe, Diplomacy? +10? The question was charisma, Mr. Fishy's charisma. Mr. Fishy's portrait is to the left.
<<<<see
Nice dodge.
Butting in a little bit here but this is a circular argument. You will say your CHA couldn't possibly be high because you are a scary looking fish. But someone else could easily say you have a high CHA due to your strong will and fearsome appearance. Neither of you are more right or more wrong. Let's look at some of the races that get bonuses/penalties to CHA as examples:
1) Dwarves get -2 to CHA. The fluff says it is because they are "gruff" not because they are ugly.
2) Elves do not get a bonus or penalty, and are described as a beautiful race. However, their evil cousins the Drow get a +2 modifier to CHA even while being, to most people, less attractive than a standard elf, and far more frightening. The fluff says it is their manipulative and regal natures that grant them a bonus to CHA.
3) Gnomes get a +2 bonus to CHA. Fluff says it is due to their attitudes which make them naturally agreeable. It certainly isn't because they are beautiful, if anything in PF their appearance is curious at best.
4) Half Elves, Half Orcs and Humans could potentially have a +2 to CHA, and none of them are considered to be exceedingly beautiful races. Half Orcs are considered to be monstrosities but suffer no negatives and could gain a positive CHA. Why? Not their looks, so it must be their force of personality.
5) Halflings get a +2 to CHA and fluff says they are merely strong-willed. Again a child sized hairy footed creature doesn't strike me as particularly attractive. But they might have a magnetic personality or, as the description says, be strong-willed.
6) Not a Player Race but Dragons are another good example. They are terrifying and intimidating. An ancient black dragon would be a horrifying sight to behold, certainly not a "beautiful" creature unless your slant on beautiful leans toward the morbid, nor are they described as such in the fluff. But they have an 18 CHA. I would call it their mighty presence and terrifying force of personality.
....
I agree that CHA isn't necessarily based on looks. A person with a 7 CHA could easily be an attractive individual as Ash described who simply has no filter between what he thinks and what he says. He is the dashing hero who tells the bar wench that dress makes her look like a heifer, then as she turns away in disgust but before she leaves earshot, he smiles and says to his buddies he would still take that heifer for a roll in the hay. Now, that guy is perfectly attractive to the woman he just gravely insulted and had he kept his mouth shut he just might have gotten that roll in the hay. But being completely inept at social interaction, 7 CHA, he will not be so lucky. Now with Diplomacy you can learn to make up for social ineptitude and the next time you meet that pretty young heifer you might tell her that as she walks from table to table serving drinks she appears as a diamond flowing through a room full of pebbles. Another explanation for low CHA might be that you are in fact a very charming individual and quite socially inclined, but you are ugly as sin. Now, in that case Disguise might be the proper way to go, with a few ranks in social skills just for good measure.
Mr. Fishy is not ghoulish. He is a handsome fishy. Look at that smile. That evil glint in his eye.
Mr. Fishy's point is made then. +10 is way high.
+10 total modifiers, as in plural, to a, as in single, skill check (I suggested Diplomacy, as you might recall.) You can get there however you like, makes no difference to me. :)
As I said in my last post, ghoulish avatar not withstanding, with skills and Class all unknown, I'd say you're quite charismatic. Now, don't choke on your flakes and do watch your ammonia level.
Well done, Ash.
I have enjoyed reading through this thread, good stuff.
I also greatly enjoy this thread. This is very much my own philosophy when creating characters. I have also played a lot of bards in 3.5 to allow my optimization focused brain cells go nuts...but not annoy my fellow players. :)
Thank you all. It's been a fun exercise for me as well. ^-^
Diplomacy? Bluff maybe, Diplomacy? +10? The question was charisma, Mr. Fishy's charisma. Mr. Fishy's portrait is to the left.
Nice dodge.
Dodge? What is this dodge that you speak of? CHA is certainly more than outward appearance, if that's what you're getting at.
I agree with Loaba. We really have no idea how to accurately gauge your charisma Mr. Fishy, because all we know is how well we and others react to you, and how well you communicate, and honestly that's handled through social skill checks (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate) and the base stat is merely a modifier. You could have a -2 from Charisma, 1 rank in Diplomacy and either Diplomacy as a class skill or Skill Focus and be sporting what appears to be a 14 Charisma. Then again, you might have a 10 Charisma, be sporting 2 ranks as a cross-class, and still appear to have the same Charisma. Ultimately, Charisma merely represents the starting point, and it's also capable of meaning very different things to each individual. Personally, I peg your Diplomacy at +0, but your Perform (Comedy) at +1-2.
It's also important to remember to compare your characters to the world around them. The average person has at best a 13 in their high stat, so your average court diplomat probably has a +5 Diplomacy, or +8 if he's the best (via Skill Focus), representing the skills he uses every day on the job and a natural talent for it (which is why he got into the business) and what he was specifically trained for (class skill). Sigfried on the other-hand has none of these things but is still sporting a +4 at 5th level, and the same +8 by 9th level, assuming he makes no further investment than his extra skill points.
Essentially, Sigfried has always been handsome but he was way to rough around the edges, but as our story goes on he becomes a good speaker, he's charming and he's funny, and good at making friends. He's not competing with the group's Bard who's trained in this sort of thing or makes it his job to be able to talk to people, but he is damn charming.
I think a good roleplayer should try to play the numbers to some degree.
As an extreme example, a player who is naturally good at diplomacy shouldn't roleplay his character as being a good negotiator if the character has Charisma 7 and no skill in Diplomacy - he should ideally play up the character's awkwardness, naivety etc. So the player's IC speeches shouldn't ideally be too flowery, full of acidic prose or witty comments, even if the player is capable of that.
That's what the check is for. Maybe it came out that way in his mind, but it got screwed up on the way to his mouth. Maybe he wanted to tell her that she was by far the best, but made it sound more like he was referring to the best among horses, and so forth. It's quite humorous to watch someone try and then goof sometimes, especially in the beginning (which Sir Sigfried would definitely do).
Equally, a real-life body builder wouldn't be expected to roleplay his Str 7 character as being able to bash down doors with a single kick and sweep tavern wenches into his arms with ease, even though the player could do that.
He might get in his head that he will. But he'll rush up to the door, shout "This is SPARTA!" and proceed to bounce himself backwards instead of the door (Oops, rolled a 3), get up and say "Ehh, a bit tougher than I figured...". Even funnier when the player tries to whisk away the maiden but she's sum 120lbs, and it puts him above his heavy load and all he can do is stagger about huffing. "No...it's fine...*gulp*...I...gotcha!" *staggers 5ft per round*
He is as charming as an 18 Charisma character with absolutely no training in diplomacy is, and as long as you roleplay that great. Whereas the 18 Cha character can get by on his natural looks / force of personality etc, Sigfried has to make up for his lack of natural charisma with skill.
But if an 18 Cha Bard with maxed out out Diplomacy comes along and takes an interest in the same girl as Sigfried, expect Sigfried's attempts at seduction to be blown out of the water - no matter how "dashing" you want him to seem.
I've never said he would out-do the bard. In fact, I'm pretty darn certain that I said that he wasn't the hero-bard but he was well above average. Few things are going to compete with a full-strength bard. Sigfried's not supposed to be the best, he's just supposed to be good, and he succeeds at that.
You're ignoring the goal and saying "Well if he's going to be good at it, then he's gotta compete with the 18 charisma bard." What kind of BS is that? Does every handsome, charming, or just nice guy need to roll over and quit because there exists a bard in the world?
I think the crux of your debate with Ashiel may be in your definition of "dashing" - you seem to equate it with personal magnetism (a facet of Charisma) but I imagine Ashiel more equates it with the words and body language learned by the study of Diplomacy. Unfortunately there is no in-game definition so reconciling a character's stats with the adjective of "dashing" is up for debate.
dashing
- 9 dictionary results
dash·ing
   /ˈdæʃɪŋ/ Show Spelled[dash-ing] Show IPA
–adjective
1. energetic and spirited; lively: a dashing hero.
2. elegant and gallant in appearance and manner: a dashing young cavalry officer.
3. showy; stylish.
I said what I meant, and I meant what I said.
You're correct as well, since I said Sigfried as handsome and dashing, but he wasn't naturally gifted at leading, and he had a natural habit of being too blunt, putting his foot in his mouth, or seeming too cocky, and people just don't like it.In the end, Sigfried will never be a James Bond equivalent - he lacks the natural charisma. He is not confident in any attempts to intimdate someone and is more easily persuaded by others (when his Cha modifier would be used to modify the DC of someone else's Diplomacy check).
However, when he really puts his mind to it he will likely be able negotiate well, seduce good looking women and fast talk the city guard - but if you look closely you'll see him sweat doing it.
Actually he could be a James Bond equivalent. James Bond is probably no more than level 5 (and that's pushing it really). The only difference is it takes Sigfried more time to develop that side of his personality. James Bond undoubtedly has at least one level in Rogue, so he was probably sporting a +5 Diplomacy and Bluff at 1st level.
Skill points are an abstraction, a meta-game concept, and by 2nd level it just represents Sigfried getting over some of his hangups. Likewise, with he has a +1 and higher, it just means he's getting better at it. Maybe he's developed a knack for conversation through doing it and he's actually pretty confident after becoming a local hero.
And as long as the player roleplays the character that way I am fine with it.
How about let the player roleplay his character? The dice handle everything else.
i love what you did with umbriere. it seems to really fit. and it appears to fit her much better than a 3.5. beguiler too.
i beleive mr. fishy has at least a 14 charisma and a fairly decent amount of ranks in perform (comedy). i'd say he has it as a class skill too.
I'm very happy that you liked it. ^.^
Also, I thought the same thing about Mr. Fishy, and I noticed you edited it back into your post before I finished mine. :P
*lots of good stuff backed up by in-game examples*
Pretty much everything Shadowlord has said. ^-^
I think you are all taking the abilities way to far. We do it different anyway and works just fine.
Take charisma forinstance. For some reason, you guys want to tie this to some specific characteristics. Like being ugle, or being a sociopath or something.
I would hazard to say that, 90% of gaming groups look at a -mod CHA and automatically assume that the character is completely unattractive. Those same groups also assume that a +mod CHA means the character must have some level of physical beauty. This is a very simple and easy way to approach CHA. Strangely enough, I can see the gray area, that says CHA doesn't have to be this simple.
Not saying these assumptions are wrong, if that's how you prefer to play.
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This is a really interesting thread, a great read. And yes, I'm also liking 15 point buy more from having read it.
However, I wonder if you're really doing what a lot of people think of as "optimizing", Ash. For example, neither your fighter nor your paladin are wielding a greatsword. When my players optimize, they all wield greatswords. All the time. With no variety or deviation. It's pretty clearly a superior weapon, so why wouldn't they use it?
In my humblest of opinions, the behavior you're exhibiting in this (very informative and cool) thread is not exactly what people think of when they think of character "optimization". This is more like "Building engaging characters that don't suck". I guess my main point is, when people decry optimization, what you're doing here is not what they're decrying.
As I said in my last post, ghoulish avatar not withstanding, with skills and Class all unknown, I'd say you're quite charismatic. Now, don't choke on your flakes and do watch your ammonia level.
You asked about Hitler [a man neither of us has met]. Mr. Fishy countered with himself, a Fishy you have nearly a thousand post to weight. Also your own personal experience with Mr. Fishy's wit or lack of.
Mr. Fishy's point was you can't look at Mr. Fishy. You can only see what is posted. No tone of voice, no facial expression or body language, no pretty face, just words placed with talent or skill.
+10 on diplomacy seems high the 14 Charisma is also high Mr. Fishy is a jerk. He speaks in the third person is self important, [fan club].
Also why are you insulting Mr. Fishy Mr. Fishy has not made any empty skull comments or paper weight cracks or lippy bowling ball remarks...>Fishy grin<
Perform [comedy] likely, class skill also likely, but the question was what is the likely Cha of the Cartoon Fishy pictured left.
@ Ash +0 is that a low charisma or a lack of skill?
Also why are you insulting Mr. Fishy Mr. Fishy has not made any empty skull comments or paper weight cracks or lippy bowling ball remarks...>Fishy grin<
I'm scandalized, Mr. Fishy, that you would even think I was insulting you. I was merely asking that you watch your health. You need those flakes, and really, no one wants [you] to swim around in a crappy tank.
I think I love this thread, by the way.
Also why are you insulting Mr. Fishy Mr. Fishy has not made any empty skull comments or paper weight cracks or lippy bowling ball remarks...>Fishy grin<I'm scandalized, Mr. Fishy, that you would even think I was insulting you. I was merely asking that you watch your health. You need those flakes, and really, no one wants [you] to swim around in a crappy tank.
Your bluff isn't that high.
However, I wonder if you're really doing what a lot of people think of as "optimizing", Ash. For example, neither your fighter nor your paladin are wielding a greatsword. When my players optimize, they all wield greatswords. All the time. With no variety or deviation. It's pretty clearly a superior weapon, so why wouldn't they use it?
I've always viewed that as Power Gaming. X is the best choice for Y, I will therefore never consider any other option. I will take that CHA dump and I won't invest in skills and I won't accept anything less than a 16 in my most important Attribute etc, etc.
Your bluff isn't that high.Also why are you insulting Mr. Fishy Mr. Fishy has not made any empty skull comments or paper weight cracks or lippy bowling ball remarks...>Fishy grin<I'm scandalized, Mr. Fishy, that you would even think I was insulting you. I was merely asking that you watch your health. You need those flakes, and really, no one wants [you] to swim around in a crappy tank.
Maybe it's not, but perhaps my Intimidate is. You didn't respond in the 3rd Person...
What? Mr. Fishy thinks you need to change your battery.
What? Mr. Fishy thinks you need to change your battery.
Pray I don't decide to change the water instead. PH balance is so hard to maintain...
I'm done, now, Mr. Fishy. I've made my point. Whether or not you agree, doesn't really matter.
If you say so. Mr. Fishy sees not the point. >waves fin<
Christ, you're making me a fan of 15 Point-buy.It is actually not that bad. It just takes some getting used to. I started fooling around with it for making NPC's, and they turned out pretty well.
We've been using 25 pb, I think the next campaign will 20 or 15. I know what I'll be lobbying for.
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That's what the check is for. Maybe it came out that way in his mind, but it got screwed up on the way to his mouth. Maybe he wanted to tell her that she was by far the best, but made it sound more like he was referring to the best among horses, and so forth. It's quite humorous to watch someone try and then goof sometimes, especially in the beginning (which Sir Sigfried would definitely do).
So how would this play out between the player and the GM? Would you have the player recount this great speech and then when he rolls average (for the cha7 no skill character) the GM say "Ok, thats what you try to do but actually it comes out more like...."?
I guess in that instance I would do something similar to you, but as a GM I wouldn't always be wanting to do that, I would rather they roleplay out a believable level of diplomacy for their character and make points that may provide a bonus to the roll. better that than constantly have to contradict what the player was suggesting his character was saying.
I've never said he would out-do the bard.
That's cool then, it was just that when you wrote "We can see he is just as charming as a 18 charisma character" you omitted the context of skills for that Cha 18 character. I just wanted to make sure that my understanding of what you meant was correct - and the fact that you don't dispute that Sigfried would be nowhere near as charming as a Cha 18 Bard of the same level with maxed out Diplomacy means we seem to be in agreement.
You're ignoring the goal and saying "Well if he's going to be good at it, then he's gotta compete with the 18 charisma bard." What kind of BS is that?
Its a kind of BS you just made up :) I never suggested that he should be able to compete. I was trying to pointout that your comment "We can see he is just as charming as a 18 charisma character" would not be true if that 18 charisma character was a bard with maxed out Diplomacy and as long as you are happy with that, despite wanting your character to be considered "dashing" then we're on the same wavelength.
Actually he could be a James Bond equivalent. [...] The only difference is it takes Sigfried more time to develop that side of his personality.
However, just improving all the Charisma associated skills to me is not getting rid of that low charisma, it is offsetting it. I really see Bond as having an above average charisma - and unless the player buys off that low Charisma with ability increases he will be a different type of character.
For example Bond can just walk into a room and turn heads - and its not just his appearance that does this, its the air of confidence, how he moves, that cruel look in his eye etc. When he begins to walk over to the woman he wants to seduce, the job is already half done.
When Sigfried walks into a room I imagine he looks initially a bit awkward, steps aside for others rather than make them step aside for him. When he sees the woman he wants to seduce he checks his breath, takes a deep breath and then approaches her (at which point he brings his skills into action).
You may not agree with that, but that is how I see the difference between someone with a low charisma and a high charisma - they may both successfully seduce the woman, but Bond makes it look effortless as it comes much more naturally. This is what I mean by roleplaying the numbers.
How about let the player roleplay his character? The dice handle everything else.
If as a GM I have to keep saying "although thats how you planned it to come out, you actually say something more like...." then it affects my enjoyment of the game, and may annoy the player.
Its just the same as if I had a player say "I tumble forward easily dodging the blows of the villain's henchmen, drawing my blade I knock the villains sword from his grasp before landing a stunning blow to his head" and then have to narrate a completely different scene when the dice show the Acrobatics test failed because the PC had no ranks in Acrobatics and the character got knocked on his arse by AoOs from the henchmen.
For this reason, maybe its best to roll first and then have the player narrate the result? Hmmm, not sure myself TBH.
@ DigitalMage
Yeah, pretty much.
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i like this idea of practical optimisation, good thinking, and i have nothing to add to that part (since thats what i kinda do anyway)
on the other hand, this thing about cha7 diplomacy 3 = ofset is wrong, since cha isn't just diplomacy, it also affects bluff, disguise, performance and use magic device, thus to really offset a charisma of 7 you need 15 skill points allocated to those skills, a character with charisma 7 and 15 ranks in diplomacy isn't likeable, his diplomatic, kinda like a poletitian, no one likes him, but they agree with what he says...
So how would this play out between the player and the GM? Would you have the player recount this great speech and then when he rolls average (for the cha7 no skill character) the GM say "Ok, thats what you try to do but actually it comes out more like...."?
Yeah, how else do you do it? The dice are the final arbiter. Without them, it breaks down to a game of "I do this" and "No, you don't" or "Yes, you did", with no other justification then "I said so."
as a GM I wouldn't always be wanting to do that, I would rather they roleplay out a believable level of diplomacy for their character and make points that may provide a bonus to the roll. better that than constantly have to contradict what the player was suggesting his character was saying.
You'd rather players just play your way, which is to say you'll give 'em a situational bonus if you think it's deserved. What you don't tell 'em is, that in your mind, because of a low CHA, they've already received a negative modifier that they'll never be able to overcome.
Gosh, don't you just hate it when mechanics get in the way of arbitrarily ruling one way or the other?
Mr. Fishy has allow diplomacy and bluff to work with out a roll. Because the roleplay was good the story or lie was believible. Or would you rather let the dice screw you. As for the mechanics the RAW is a series of guidelines not the word of God there is a difference. A big one.
Again with the condescending attacks, aggro much?
We disagreed, we didn't attack your sand castle.
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Ashiel, I still have a character to submit, but I assume last time I posted it was too vague; I'll flesh it out a bit while still keeping race and class undetermined.
[Character] was educated in history and archeology, and possibly arcana, but found that he enjoyed exploring musty tombs and using his practical skills over poring over dry books at the university. He has a mean right cross, and doesn't hesitate to use it if he thinks he can get a cheap shot in. His primary goal is knowledge, but knowledge that he can gain not by reading, but by exploring.
Interesting enough? :o
Ok, let's give him a shot. We can see he's educated, possibly in magic, and seems to enjoy being in tombs looking for ancient secrets. You mention he's got a mean punch but only uses it if it's safe to do so (which makes be think he probably lacks IUS or monk levels). Now, he could be an Expert (NPC class) and sport everything you mentioned, but want to be a PC class, right? I think a Rogue will do nicely, especially since he likes suckerpunching people. ^_^
Let's call him Gremy (guess where I got the name).
Gremy's Abilities 15 Point Buy
1st Level Human Rogue
Initiative +6, Perception +5
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Speed 30ft
Melee Morningstar +3 (1d8+4) or Longspear +3 (1d8+4) or Bladed Gauntlet +3 (1d4+3)
Ranged Sling +2 (1d4+3) or Dart +2 (1d4+3) or Dagger +2 (1d4+3)
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +0, CMB +3, CMD 15
Feats - Improved Initiative, Nimble Moves
Abilities - Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +6, Appraise +5, Climb +7, Disable Device +6, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (Local) +5, Knowledge (History) +2, Knowledge (Architecture) +2, Perception +5, Stealth +6, Swim +7; Armor Check Penalty -1
Overview: At 1st level, Gremy won't look like your typical rogue. No, he's a man of the world and he's a seasoned explorer. You won't find him picking pockets or bluffing the guards, he's a man of action who is quite at home in musty old tombs. He's packing a morning star (great against skeletons who often guard ancient tombs), a longspear (distance is good), and a bladed gauntlet (to make that right hook even nastier). He's found that ancient ruins are a dangerous place full of traps, so he's got trapfinding and a good Perception. He's taken the Nimble Moves feat because he's learned to fight on the rocky and often slippery surfaces inside dungeons and old archeological tombs (and he'll use Acrobatics to draw opponents into rough terrain where he can 5ft step, and by the time they realized they've fallen into a trap, they'll be getting stabbed to death with his spear).
In a group, his longspear means he'll get far, far more opportunities to flank opponents (and can do so within the protection and cover of allies) and is likely to get a surprising number of sneak-attacks of opportunity (since if he's in the group with Sigfried, Laerithe, and Haldrex opponents will often end up flanked even while they're moving.
If the GM allows traits, the Explorer of Ruins human trait would be a great one for Gremy.
2nd Level Human Rogue
Initiative +6, Perception +5
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +2 dex)
Hp 16 (2d8+4)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
Speed 30ft
Melee Morningstar +4 (1d8+4) or Longspear +4 (1d8+4) or Bladed Gauntlet +4 (1d4+3)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+3) or Dart +3 (1d4+3) or Dagger +3 (1d4+3)
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +1, CMB +4, CMD 16
Feats - Improved Initiative, Nimble Moves
Abilities - Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, evasion, rogue talent (slow reactions)
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +7, Appraise +5, Climb +8, Disable Device +9, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (Local) +5, Knowledge (History) +3, Knowledge (Architecture) +3, Perception +8, Stealth +9, Swim +8; Armor Check Penalty -0
Overview: By 2nd level, Gremy has purchased masterwork studded leather armor to remove his check penalty, and likewise has purchased a masterwork cloak (+2 stealth), a masterwork thieves' kit (he calls it archaeological tools), and a masterwork eyeglass (+2 Perception). He's taken the slow reactions rogue talent, so now anything struck by his sneak attack can't make attacks of opportunity (which allows his allies to get inside and beat them to death or allows him to escape from an enemy's reach).
3rd Level Human Rogue
Initiative +6, Perception +5
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +2 dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
Hp 23 (3d8+6)
Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +2
Speed 30ft
Melee Morningstar +5 (1d8+4) or Mwk Longspear +6 (1d8+4) or Bladed Gauntlet +5 (1d4+3)
Ranged Sling +4 (1d4+3) or Dart +4 (1d4+3) or Dagger +4 (1d4+3)
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +2, CMB +5, CMD 17
Feats - Improved Initiative, Nimble Moves, Dodge
Abilities - Sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, evasion, rogue talent (slow reactions), trap sense +1
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +8, Appraise +5, Climb +9, Disable Device +10, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (Local) +5, Knowledge (History) +4, Knowledge (Architecture) +4, Perception +10, Stealth +10, Swim +9, Use Magic Device +4; Armor Check Penalty -0
Overview: At 3rd level, Gremy has upgraded to a masterwork longspear and a mithril chain shirt, and taken the Dodge feat. We're planning on picking up wind stance and lightning stance later on because they grant you concealment when you move, and with concealment we can use Stealth as a move action as part of the move action, so we up with a hit & run combo of strike-vanish-strike-vanish, which is lots of fun. In the meantime, we also enjoy a boost to our armor class at this level.
4th Level Human Rogue
Initiative +6, Perception +5
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +3 dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
Hp 29 (4d8+8)
Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +2
Speed 30ft
Melee Morningstar +6 (1d8+4) or Mwk Longspear +7 (1d8+4) or Bladed Gauntlet +6 (1d4+3)
Ranged Sling +6 (1d4+3) or Dart +6 (1d4+3) or Dagger +6 (1d4+3)
Str 16, Dex 16 (15), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +3, CMB +6, CMD 19
Feats - Improved Initiative, Nimble Moves, Dodge
Abilities - Sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, evasion, rogue talent (slow reactions), trap sense +1, uncanny dodge, rogue talent (fast stealth)
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +10, Appraise +5, Climb +10, Disable Device +12, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (Local) +5, Knowledge (History) +5, Knowledge (Architecture) +5, Perception +11, Stealth +12, Swim +10, Use Magic Device +5; Armor Check Penalty -0
Overview: At 4th level, Gremy's purchased a +1 dexterity item (1,000 gp) and a cloak of resistance +1 (1,000 gp) which has padded out his saves, skills, ranged attacks, and armor class a good little bit. More importantly, we can now qualify for both acrobatic steps and wind stance! Likewise, we've taken Fast Stealth as our rogue talent and we now have Uncanny Dodge. Uncanny Dodge allows us to take a total defense while we're walking around, so before combat starts we have "Spider Sense" for +4 dodge to our AC - excellent against traps and ambushes, especially when combined with Gremy's +1 trapsense.
5th Level Human Rogue
Initiative +6, Perception +5
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +3 dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
Hp 36 (5d8+10)
Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +2
Speed 30ft
Melee Morningstar +7 (1d8+6) or Mwk Longspear +8 (1d8+6) or Bladed Gauntlet +7 (1d4+3)
Ranged Sling +6 (1d4+4) or Dart +6 (1d4+4) or Dagger +6 (1d4+4)
Str 18 (16), Dex 16 (15), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +3, CMB +6, CMD 19
Feats - Improved Initiative, Nimble Moves, Dodge, Acrobatic Steps
Abilities - Sneak attack +3d6, trapfinding, evasion, rogue talent (slow reactions), trap sense +1, uncanny dodge, rogue talent (fast stealth)
Skills (11/level) - Acrobatics +11, Appraise +5, Climb +11, Disable Device +13, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (Local) +5, Knowledge (History) +6, Knowledge (Architecture) +6, Perception +12, Stealth +13, Swim +11, Use Magic Device +6; Armor Check Penalty -0
Overview: At 5th level, Gremy has a lot of options for items and chooses a belt of strength +2 (4,000 gp) to pump his damage, carrying capacity, and his melee attack rolls, but we also get +3d6 sneak attack on the end of our spear, and now we've got Acrobatic Steps, allowing us to move through 20ft of rough terrain without hindrance, which likewise combos well with Acrobatics and Fast Stealth.
Summary: We can see that Gremy is not your typical rogue. He combos well with the rest of his party. He's setup to disable traps, spot ambushes, find hidden doors and treasures, identify creepy dungeon monsters, and his skills are good enough he can probably take 10 and identify things like unsafe structures or potential cave-ins. In combat he doesn't put himself in harms way if he can help it (reach weapon, yay!) and can often avoid making Acrobatics checks to get into reach of his opponent, and he enjoys a lot of versatility with flanking (he can flank from 5ft or 10ft due to his gauntlet and sneak attack with either). When all else fails, he can still pull back at attack with slings, darts, or thrown daggers - all of which make good use of his high strength modifier.
Hope you enjoy it Mergy. ^_^
Or would you rather let the dice screw you.
Absolutely, certainly over the following...
As for the mechanics, the RAW is a series of guidelines. not the word of [The DM]. there is a difference. A big one.
There, Fishy, I changed your statement to more accurately reflect your sentiment.
I'll take the dice over DM fiat any day of the week. :)
hey Ash, i got this great idea. we should play these characters in a Pathfinder PBP game to see how they work.
As for the mechanics, the RAW is a series of guidelines. not the word of god.
[The DM].There, Mr. Fishy, I changed your statement to more accurately reflect your sentiment.
I'll take the dice over DM fiat any day of the week.
Misquoting, personal attacks and declarations of Fiat. Ok, Mr. Fishy runs a game in favor of fun in which a good idea trumps a die roll and players have a fair shake at playing without bad die rolls eating good plans.
Combat is a dice game. Social play is a skill game, a loose ruled game at that in fact the RAW you love so much says the DM has final.
But you see what you want and read the same. Mr. Fishy is a fish hole. He doesn't agree with you so you attack. Fine Mr. Fishy doesn't care if you like Mr. Fishy, Mr. Fishy likes Mr. Fishy.
You think [using that term loosely] that Mr. Fishy is wrong, OK. It is unwise to put words in a mouth as vicious as Mr. Fishy's.
Mr. Fishy is still playing nice. Take that as you see fit. One more thing Mr. Fishy fixed it for you.
This is a really interesting thread, a great read. And yes, I'm also liking 15 point buy more from having read it.
However, I wonder if you're really doing what a lot of people think of as "optimizing", Ash. For example, neither your fighter nor your paladin are wielding a greatsword. When my players optimize, they all wield greatswords. All the time. With no variety or deviation. It's pretty clearly a superior weapon, so why wouldn't they use it?
In my humblest of opinions, the behavior you're exhibiting in this (very informative and cool) thread is not exactly what people think of when they think of character "optimization". This is more like "Building engaging characters that don't suck". I guess my main point is, when people decry optimization, what you're doing here is not what they're decrying.
I explained what Practical Optimization means in my previous posts, and you could probably get a very similar explanation on a forum such as Giant In The Playground from other optimizers, who would explain the difference between theoretical optimization and optimizing due to understanding how the game works.
You say your players optimize by wielding a greatsword, so let's explore that. As far as close-range beatings go, the Greatsword is indeed the king of 5ft space combat, since it's average damage is about 7 (6.5 with a higher minimum roll), compared to the glaive or longspear's 5.5 and 4.5 respectively. However, the majority of your damage (especially at higher levels) comes from your static modifiers such as strength, enhancement, and abilities. The benefit of a reach weapon (especially with multiple members) vastly overshadows that +2 average damage since it doubles the area that you can cover, combos exceedingly well with Enlarge Person, and allows you to gang up on people incredibly easily. Both Sigfried and Laerithe are armed with 5ft melee weapons they cannot be disarmed of nor have to carry to benefit from, and they have a shield for when they need to pad their AC (often the case if you're fighting groups of weaker opponents vs few brutes).
Likewise, weapons like the Ranseur allow you to preform disarms at a +2 bonus from outside of an enemy's reach, and you can engage enemies like ogres on a more equal footing with a reach weapon (god help you if the ogre has a reach weapon :P).
In short, why should I use a greatsword? If I want to do damage, then I should use a greatsword - that's the answer. However, I can do solid damage without a greatsword.
Most of the characters have a reach weapon. Why? Because that's pretty optimal. It's a good piece of equipment for anyone for the same reason reach is useful in real life fighting, being able to poke the other guy from a safer distance is HUGE.
Your definition of "making engaging characters that don't suck" is a great description for good optimization. "Don't suck" implies that they're going to be good at what they do (or at the very least on par), and we're milking the mechanics for everything we can, since the +2 damage of the greatsword is not close to being useful throughout the game.
If your character's strength is particularly high (encumbrance), it wouldn't hurt to draw a greatsword and pummel your opponent if the situation warrants it.
But keep this in mind. At the lower levels the damage bonus of the greatsword is more noticeable, and yet your average damage from any 2 handed weapon is probably enough to kill most CR 1/2 or lower enemies in a single swing, whereas at higher levels the difference is less noticeable even when the enemies have more HP.
So how would this play out between the player and the GM? Would you have the player recount this great speech and then when he rolls average (for the cha7 no skill character) the GM say "Ok, thats what you try to do but actually it comes out more like...."?
I guess in that instance I would do something similar to you, but as a GM I wouldn't always be wanting to do that, I would rather they roleplay out a believable level of diplomacy for their character and make points that may provide a bonus to the roll. better that than constantly have to contradict what the player was suggesting his character was saying.
Yes, I have to do it that way. I have a player who typically enjoys playing a short tempered barbarian killing machine (except the one time he played a blaster psion, he says magic is too complicated) who is actually amazingly charismatic and engaging in real life.
Next to him is another friend of mine who's admittedly a bit troubled in the social department. He has difficulty explaining his thoughts, or detailing exactly what he means, and sometimes we have to pause for a moment to understand what it was he was even trying to say to the NPC to begin with. He loves playing bards, rogues, and wizards more than anyone else at the table, and he favors the charismatic guys with lots of tricks up their sleeves who are dashing and witty.
So yes, yes I do. Otherwise it's metagaming and also just doesn't work the other way for me or my friends. The mechanics already cover this, so when the guard decides the course of action, it comes down to that d20 roll, with the players being the factor that initiated the roll (and the goal) in question. Charismatic players playing characters with little to no social skill have to learn to live with their choice, while people trying to play characters more skilled than they are shouldn't be punished for putting ranks in their skills only to be told "Nah, that wasn't a good enough speech".
I wouldn't play in a group that would do that.
That's cool then, it was just that when you wrote "We can see he is just as charming as a 18 charisma character" you omitted the context of skills for that Cha 18 character. I just wanted to make sure that my understanding of what you meant was correct - and the fact that you don't dispute that Sigfried would be nowhere near as charming as a Cha 18 Bard of the same level with maxed out Diplomacy means we seem to be in agreement.
Its a kind of BS you just made up :) I never suggested that he should be able to compete. I was trying to pointout that your comment "We can see he is just as charming as a 18 charisma character" would not be true if that 18 charisma character was a bard with maxed out Diplomacy and as long as you are happy with that, despite wanting your character to be considered "dashing" then we're on the same wavelength.
I didn't omit it. You added it when you decided there was a problem. If I had meant an 18 charisma character with 5 ranks in Diplomacy and a +3 from a class skill, then I would have said it.
I said it was the equivalent of someone with an 18 charisma (and only an 18 charima). Please, don't put words in my mouth or take them out, because it's rude to play with other people's food.
However, just improving all the Charisma associated skills to me is not getting rid of that low charisma, it is offsetting it. I really see Bond as having an above average charisma - and unless the player buys off that low Charisma with ability increases he will be a different type of character.
For example Bond can just walk into a room and turn heads - and its not just his appearance that does this, its the air of confidence, how he moves, that cruel look in his eye etc. When he begins to walk over to the woman he wants to seduce, the job is already half done.
When Sigfried walks into a room I imagine he looks initially a bit awkward, steps aside for others rather than make them step aside for him. When he sees the woman he wants to seduce he checks his breath, takes a deep breath and then approaches her (at which point he brings his skills into action).
You may not agree with that, but that is how I see the difference between someone with a low charisma and a high charisma - they may both successfully seduce the woman, but Bond makes it look effortless as it comes much more naturally. This is what I mean by roleplaying the numbers.
The problem is it doesn't work that way (actually it's not a problem at all). I already said Sigfried's handsome. Congrats, the job is half done for Sigfried too, but it doesn't mean squat until he follows through, just like Mr. Bond. You are labeling the character based on assumptions that you are making about what his 7 Charisma means - assumptions which are not supported by the physics of the game world.
You are correct about offsetting his personal drawbacks. By 2nd level he's kicked his bad habits and is like a normal person. Keep this in mind, a normal person likely doesn't have ranks in diplomacy nor does he have a +1 charisma bonus, so the vast majority of people throughout the world - according to the NPC guidelines - has a +2 at the very best, and that's for those who've invested a bit of themselves and are naturally quite likable. By 3rd level, there's little doubt that Sigfried can walk into a room with confidence and casuality.
Meanwhile Bond may have a high charisma and few ranks, a low charisma and more ranks, or be a charisma focused rogue and have the best of both worlds. It'd probably be safe to assume James Bond has it as a class skill and a 13-14 charisma, and has invested ranks some 3-4 ranks into it. Very few people in real life can invoke the reactions that Bond supposedly incites in women (and only women for some reason, maybe he has the Charming trait found on the d20pfsrd which gives him a bonus to Charisma based checks vs anyone who could be sexually attracted to him).
Finally you said: "You may not agree with that, but that is how I see the difference between someone with a low charisma and a high charisma - they may both successfully seduce the woman, but Bond makes it look effortless as it comes much more naturally. This is what I mean by roleplaying the numbers." which is fine, but it's entirely your own opinion and unless you have something to back it up with, please drop it.
If as a GM I have to keep saying "although thats how you planned it to come out, you actually say something more like...." then it affects my enjoyment of the game, and may annoy the player.
Its just the same as if I had a player say "I tumble forward easily dodging the blows of the villain's henchmen, drawing my blade I knock the villains sword from his grasp before landing a stunning blow to his head" and then have to narrate a completely different scene when the dice show the Acrobatics test failed because the PC had no ranks in Acrobatics and the character got knocked on his arse by AoOs from the henchmen.
Then your player learns a lesson about playing a character with poor social skills. In the same way that the player with the full-plate, a 10 dexterity, and no ranks in Acrobatics learns a lesson when they try to chase the bad-guy across the slippery narrow ledge over the river below.
You shouldn't count your chickens before they hatch. I've had players who say "I move over here, then grab the badguy by the head and break his neck", to which I respond, "As you attempted to do that, the bad-guy dodged and then *rolls dice* proceeds to throw you to the ground with his heavy flail."
i like this idea of practical optimisation, good thinking, and i have nothing to add to that part (since thats what i kinda do anyway)
Thanks. ^_^
on the other hand, this thing about cha7 diplomacy 3 = ofset is wrong, since cha isn't just diplomacy, it also affects bluff, disguise, performance and use magic device, thus to really offset a charisma of 7 you need 15 skill points allocated to those skills, a character with charisma 7 and 15 ranks in diplomacy isn't likeable, his diplomatic, kinda like a poletitian, no one likes him, but they agree with what he says...
Our character functions as intended. He's not supposed to be good at disguising himself, nor is he supposed to be good at performing (except in motivating people via Diplomacy/Bluff), nor making magic items work. If anything, this is a great debunking to Mr. Fishy's posts, since why would may fighter being prettier make him better at using wands?
The mechanics fit the character, which is the whole point. ^_^
Mr. Fishy has allow diplomacy and bluff to work with out a roll. Because the roleplay was good the story or lie was believible. Or would you rather let the dice screw you. As for the mechanics the RAW is a series of guidelines not the word of God there is a difference. A big one.
Metagaming. Not roleplaying. You're doing it.
Misquoting, personal attacks and declarations of Fiat. Ok, Mr. Fishy runs a game in favor of fun in which a good idea trumps a die roll and players have a fair shake at playing without bad die rolls eating good plans.
Combat is a dice game. Social play is a skill game, a loose ruled game at that in fact the RAW you love so much says the DM has final.
So you agree that the -2 charisma modifier is but a guideline? Good to know, good to know. So why exactly does having a character concept that works on paper and in-game summon so much anti-player resentment and the GM telling the player his character is ugly, and the GM using GM-Fiat (which is exactly what you're describing) to tell the player he can't do what he can do?
hey Ash, i got this great idea. we should play these characters in a Pathfinder PBP game to see how they work.
That would be fun. I'd be willing to GM if you'd like. I haven't done a PBP game in over five years. I'm pretty much tabletop and OpenRPG these days (God I love me some OpenRPG).
How do you do so on the Paizo boards?
(Expected posts per day/week, dice rolling, any whiteboard type thing we can measure distances on - if if just roughly?)