Assume you are playing either a Druid or Lion Shaman who has a big cat companion and is focused on being a shapeshifting combatant with your big cat. After reaching level 4 your big cat animal companion is entitled to an ability score increase.
Is it better to put 1 point in str to get the strength to an even number for the cat's nice pouncing attacks, or is it better to put the ability increase into intelligence so that you can dump Animal Handling as a skill? For those who aren't aware, increasing an animal companion's intelligence from 2 to 3 means you don't have to rely on tricks and animal handling checks as the animal can now understand normal conversation.
Getting INT to 3 (and putting a skill point in Linguistics so that it actually understands a language) for the animal companion is a huge boost. Extra combat capability is nice, but the ability to simply tell the critter what to do instead of relying on a small set of known tricks can make an amazing difference. Add in the ability of the animal to communicate back to you. (Sure, it probably can't manage comprehensible Common, but a combination of sounds, gestures, and maybe drawing in the dirt with a claw tip - admittedly at INT 3 it won't be any good at spelling - can manage to get a lot across without wasting spell slots on Speak With Animal.) Finally, at INT 3 the AC can take any valid feat instead of just a small set of animal choices. All together, that's got to be worth more than another point of STR.
There probably isn't any reason to ever move INT higher than 3, but that first point can be awesome.
(Mildly ninja'd, oh well.)
Assume you are playing either a Druid or Lion Shaman who has a big cat companion and is focused on being a shapeshifting combatant with your big cat. After reaching level 4 your big cat animal companion is entitled to an ability score increase.
Is it better to put 1 point in str to get the strength to an even number for the cat's nice pouncing attacks, or is it better to put the ability increase into intelligence so that you can dump Animal Handling as a skill? For those who aren't aware, increasing an animal companion's intelligence from 2 to 3 means you don't have to rely on tricks and animal handling checks as the animal can now understand normal conversation.
Where are you getting that from? I just read through the bestiary and the closest I saw was no animal can have an intelligence of 3 or higher (which makes it a magical beast it looks like from the creature types), that if an animal companion gets an INT of 10 or higher they get bonus skill points, and if they have an INT of 3 or higher they can choose any feat.
The magical beast thing wouldn't come into play as the animal companion as the ability states they actually stay the animal type for purposes of what spells can effect them. Having an INT of 3 or higher doesn't make the animal all the sudden stop acting as it states in the animal companion ability as far as I can see from the rules. The best thing I can see is that it can understand a language at INT 3, but that doesn't remove the necessity of Handle Animal per the description.
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Where are you getting that from? I just read through the bestiary and the closest I saw was no animal can have an intelligence of 3 or higher (which makes it a magical beast it looks like from the creature types), that if an animal companion gets an INT of 10 or higher they get bonus skill points, and if they have an INT of 3 or higher they can choose any feat.
The magical beast thing wouldn't come into play as the animal companion as the ability states they actually stay the animal type for purposes of what spells can effect them. Having an INT of 3 or higher doesn't make the animal all the sudden stop acting as it states in the animal companion ability as far as I can see from the rules. The best thing I can see is that it can understand a language at INT 3, but that doesn't remove the necessity of Handle Animal per the description.
Look in the animal companion section of the CRB. It specifies that you can bump up an AC's INT so it can learn different feats than the basics.
Where are you getting that from? I just read through the bestiary and the closest I saw was no animal can have an intelligence of 3 or higher (which makes it a magical beast it looks like from the creature types), that if an animal companion gets an INT of 10 or higher they get bonus skill points, and if they have an INT of 3 or higher they can choose any feat.
The magical beast thing wouldn't come into play as the animal companion as the ability states they actually stay the animal type for purposes of what spells can effect them. Having an INT of 3 or higher doesn't make the animal all the sudden stop acting as it states in the animal companion ability as far as I can see from the rules. The best thing I can see is that it can understand a language at INT 3, but that doesn't remove the necessity of Handle Animal per the description.
To be honest, I was going from my vague memory of other threads I read on the subject so I am probably wrong on how INT works for animals going from INT 2 to 3. If you still require animal handling skill even if the animal has an INT of 3, then there doesn't seem much point to boosting the INT in the first place unless there was some special feat you wanted for your animal. Can anyone shed further light on the exact benefits as per RAW for having an animal companion with an INT of 3 rather than 2?
Look in the animal companion section of the CRB. It specifies that you can bump up an AC's INT so it can learn different feats than the basics.Where are you getting that from? I just read through the bestiary and the closest I saw was no animal can have an intelligence of 3 or higher (which makes it a magical beast it looks like from the creature types), that if an animal companion gets an INT of 10 or higher they get bonus skill points, and if they have an INT of 3 or higher they can choose any feat.
The magical beast thing wouldn't come into play as the animal companion as the ability states they actually stay the animal type for purposes of what spells can effect them. Having an INT of 3 or higher doesn't make the animal all the sudden stop acting as it states in the animal companion ability as far as I can see from the rules. The best thing I can see is that it can understand a language at INT 3, but that doesn't remove the necessity of Handle Animal per the description.
My point isn't that INT can't be boosted, but that it somehow makes the animal companion a creature/being that no longer needs to be guided by the owner. An INT score of 3 or higher is required to learn additional feats, that is fine and listed. Just because it gets a bump of a point or two (or 8) doesn't negate the need of the character to guide the animal and have the skill.
My point isn't that INT can't be boosted, but that it somehow makes the animal companion a creature/being that no longer needs to be guided by the owner. An INT score of 3 or higher is required to learn additional feats, that is fine and listed. Just because it gets a bump of a point or two (or 8) doesn't negate the need of the character to guide the animal and have the skill.Look in the animal companion section of the CRB. It specifies that you can bump up an AC's INT so it can learn different feats than the basics.Where are you getting that from? I just read through the bestiary and the closest I saw was no animal can have an intelligence of 3 or higher (which makes it a magical beast it looks like from the creature types), that if an animal companion gets an INT of 10 or higher they get bonus skill points, and if they have an INT of 3 or higher they can choose any feat.
The magical beast thing wouldn't come into play as the animal companion as the ability states they actually stay the animal type for purposes of what spells can effect them. Having an INT of 3 or higher doesn't make the animal all the sudden stop acting as it states in the animal companion ability as far as I can see from the rules. The best thing I can see is that it can understand a language at INT 3, but that doesn't remove the necessity of Handle Animal per the description.
I personally work it as the Int increases allow 3 more tricks per point, and unlock the feat access as mentioned in the rules. As the Type does not change, it is still directed by Handle Animal rolls and simply gets a larger pool of options for the lucky owner. An Int raise to 3 from a HD stat bump isn't the Awaken spell. Since the handle animal skill and the rules for AC's are spelled out, i don't see why gaining 1 Int point more would scrap the system for using it.
To be honest, I was going from my vague memory of other threads I read on the subject so I am probably wrong on how INT works for animals going from INT 2 to 3. If you still require animal handling skill even if the animal has an INT of 3, then there doesn't seem much point to boosting the INT in the first place unless there was some special feat you wanted for your animal. Can anyone shed further light on the exact benefits as per RAW for having an animal companion with an INT of 3 rather than 2?Where are you getting that from? I just read through the bestiary and the closest I saw was no animal can have an intelligence of 3 or higher (which makes it a magical beast it looks like from the creature types), that if an animal companion gets an INT of 10 or higher they get bonus skill points, and if they have an INT of 3 or higher they can choose any feat.
The magical beast thing wouldn't come into play as the animal companion as the ability states they actually stay the animal type for purposes of what spells can effect them. Having an INT of 3 or higher doesn't make the animal all the sudden stop acting as it states in the animal companion ability as far as I can see from the rules. The best thing I can see is that it can understand a language at INT 3, but that doesn't remove the necessity of Handle Animal per the description.
In the Druid class description under animal companions it says that a 3 INT allows the animal companion to choose any feats it is physically capable of utilizing as well as any skills, rather than just feats and skills listed for animals. The part about language actually comes from another section. In 3.5 it was spelled out that a 3 INT meant certain things for creatures. In the PF version it is worded a little different but seems to carry the same basic meaning. The section can be found right in the beginning of your PF Core Rulebook or in the Getting Started section of the PRD under the description of Intelligence:
Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks.
There is another discussion on this same basic idea HERE.
In the Druid class description under animal companions it says that a 3 INT allows the animal companion to choose any feats it is physically capable of utilizing as well as any skills, rather than just feats and skills listed for animals. The part about language actually comes from another section. In 3.5 it was spelled out that a 3 INT meant certain things for creatures. In the PF version it is worded a little different but seems to carry the same basic meaning. The section can be found right in the beginning of your PF Core Rulebook or in the Getting Started...
Thanks for the information and the link Shadowlord. So it appears that if you grant your Animal Companion an increase in INT to 3 AND put one point of its skill allotment into linguistics, then it can understand the druid and you could do away with tricks and handle animal checks for your companion.
What happens to its animal type when it gets Int 3? Since Bestiary specifically states that no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal.
What happens to its animal type when it gets Int 3? Since Bestiary specifically states that no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal.
In short you get a version of Lassie, a very smart animal.
By level 8 or higher some characters would have the gold to give their animal companion a Headband of vast intelligence +2 to give it an int score of 4 or 5.
...Besides what others have said, increasing INT to 3 (and understanding a Language via 1 Rank of Linguistics) doesn`t necessarily negate the need for Handle Animal, it just allows communication to be done more fluidly via spoken language. I`d even say that it HELPS Handle Animal checks by allowing more complex variants on known tricks (without necessitating a Push), and/or reducing the DC for ´Push´ attempts, but the Handle Animal check still would need to be made. Of course, maxing Handle Animal means all these DCs eventually become auto-pass, but you can`t just ignore the skill if you want to achieve that.
Besides opening up Feats and allowing slightly better tactical choices, Knowing langauge also allows allies to more effectively communicate with the Animal Companion (i.e. ´don´t go between the dragon and us´) but suggesting a new course of action would still require a Handle Animal check.
...Besides what others have said, increasing INT to 3 (and understanding a Language via 1 Rank of Linguistics) doesn`t necessarily negate the need for Handle Animal, it just allows communication to be done more fluidly via spoken language. I`d even say that it HELPS Handle Animal checks by allowing more complex variants on known tricks (without necessitating a Push), and/or reducing the DC for ´Push´ attempts, but the Handle Animal check still would need to be made. Of course, maxing Handle Animal means all these DCs eventually become auto-pass, but you can`t just ignore the skill if you want to achieve that.
Besides opening up Feats and allowing slightly better tactical choices, Knowing langauge also allows allies to more effectively communicate with the Animal Companion (i.e. ´don´t go between the dragon and us´) but suggesting a new course of action would still require a Handle Animal check.
One of the reasons I don't believe a Handle Animal check or trick is required for an animal with INT 3 is that there is no rule requiring those for a PC with INT 3 (say, a low base plus a de-buff). INT 3 is really really stupid, but still sapient and capable of understanding language (if it knows any). At INT 1 or 2 you need training or Handle Animal because the subject can't comprehend actual language, just associates certain cues (like the sound of a specific word) with trained responses.
It occurs to me that you might actually need the druid to help with the feebleminded spellcaster, but that's another issue.
]One of the reasons I don't believe a Handle Animal check or trick is required for an animal with INT 3 is that there is no rule requiring those for a PC with INT 3 (say, a low base plus a de-buff). INT 3 is really really stupid, but still sapient and capable of understanding language (if it knows any). At INT 1 or 2 you need training or Handle Animal because the subject can't comprehend actual language, just associates certain cues (like the sound of a specific word) with trained responses.
It occurs to me that you might actually need the druid to help with the feebleminded spellcaster, but that's another issue.
Animal companions aren't innately sentient creatures nor are they a separate creature, they are a class feature/ability.
As such, they still operate as listed in the ability description. Saying anything else is basically a house rule. Even if the animal companion got a 10 INT, it knows X tricks (all of them really I'd imagine) and still needs to have the controlling character guide their super intelligent animal companion as per the regular rules. Nothing changes that in the rules that are provided. The character still must make that check to get the appropriate actions from the animal companion even if the companion has an equal or even better INT score.
You're trying to reason your argument to be one way even though the rules of the game often have nothing to do with actual reason. As far as an animal companion is concerned, a higher INT score means more tricks and a better selection of feats and skills. Nothing more is listed as being given as a bonus. An animal companion might understand a dozen languages but that doesn't mean the handle animal check isn't required.
If the animal can perfectly understand what I want it to do why do I need to train it? The only argument I can see is that you are not only training it to attack, but how to attack, or how to guard as an example. Some things such as breaking off an attack don't need training. If the animals hears you say stop then that is all it should take. Most animals need to be trained because they can't understand languages. It would be just like if I had a dog and it understood english fairly well. If I tell it to get off the couch, no special training should be required. The dog may not move, but that is due to stubbornness, not understanding, or lack of it. Even a stubborn animal that is trained will break rules from time to time.
If the animal can perfectly understand what I want it to do why do I need to train it? The only argument I can see is that you are not only training it to attack, but how to attack, or how to guard as an example. Some things such as breaking off an attack don't need training. If the animals hears you say stop then that is all it should take. Most animals need to be trained because they can't understand languages. It would be just like if I had a dog and it understood english fairly well. If I tell it to get off the couch, no special training should be required. The dog may not move, but that is due to stubbornness, not understanding, or lack of it. Even a stubborn animal that is trained will break rules from time to time.
You're taking reasoning and trying to enforce it on the rules that were made for balance. The animal companion is still an animal companion, albeit a more intelligent one than that of a wild animal. You issuing the command is different than "telling it to do X." The rules say the check is required so the check is required. They make no provisions that if the intelligence score is over Z the roll isn't required. As there are no exceptions the roll still needs to be made (though a lower roll as an INT 10 companion would have all the tricks and there would be no "pushing"). The INT score of an animal companion isn't a matter of whether it can act autonomously, it might be smart, but it still operates within the constructs of being an animal companion that doesn't change. For the same reason it doesn't become a magical beast it stays an animal companion and operates like that for as long as the bond exists. If the bond is severed (new animal companion) it goes back to being the normal animal.
For the same reason it breaks some rules, it is trapped by others.
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I dont have the time to go thorugh the old posts to find it but I am really sure that it was officially ruled that AC's with Int 3 no longer needed the animal handling skill to follow commands
in my groups games no AC needs to take linguistics to understand its owner - why would it? - at int 2 it can follow commands by its owner & now I make it more intelligent by increasing it to int 3 it no longer understands commands????
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If an Int 3 for an animal means it completely understands you, then maybe you don't need Handle Animal - but you may need Diplomacy or Intimidate to convince it to do stuff instead :) Handle Animal isn't just a matter of teaching it, but getting the animal to do the trick each time as well - force of personality and all that.