I know it's not the best place to ask about such things, but i bet that there's someone on this forum who can help me. :)
I plan to run the City of the Spider Queen module, converted for Pathfinder, when my players will get to level 9 or 10. However, one of the PCs is a cleric of Orcus and I was wondering something. I don't remember the source, but I saw somewhere that Orcus was killed by Kiaransalee (maybe it's in Fiendish Codex I or Faith and Pantheon or something). However, the Demon Prince's soul survived and he took the name of Tenebrous for a while, before finding a way to recover his former glory.
So my question is : did the death of Orcus at the hand of Kiaransalee happened BEFORE, DURING or AFTER the events of City of the Spider Queen? I'm asking this because it could have a huge influence on the cleric's attitude and development.
Thank you!
Man you've opened up a can of Kyuss worms here . . .
The only "official" thing we know is that Kiaransalee killed Orcus and that he came back.
This was greatly complicated by the fact that the initial event happened when every AD&D setting shared the same cosmology. Once the "boutique cosmology" came about, only the Kiaransalee of the Realms cosmology killed the Orcus of the Realms cosmology, and we never really got a timeline on that.
The Fiendish Codex, which is written more or less from the "consolidated cosmology" point of view, seems to indicate that all of the killing and taking over of Realms was hundreds of years ago and Orcus just recently returned to life.
However, this confuses the whole Bloodstone Lands issue, where Orcus was around in the Realms a few decades ago and was banished from the Realms by the destruction of his Wand (which Tenebrous was looking for, and which Kiaransalee hid, and Tenebrous used to return to life as Orcus).
Clear as mud, eh?
I know it's not the best place to ask about such things, but i bet that there's someone on this forum who can help me. :)
I plan to run the City of the Spider Queen module, converted for Pathfinder, when my players will get to level 9th. However, one of the PCs is a cleric of Orcus and I was wondering something. I don't remember the source, but I saw somewhere that Orcus was killed by Kiaransalee (maybe it's in Fiendish Codex I or Faith and Pantheon or something). However, the Demon Prince's soul survived and he took the name of Thanatos for a while, before finding a way to recover his former glory.
So my question is : did the death of Orcus at the hand of Kiaransalee happened BEFORE, DURING or AFTER the events of City of the Spider Queen? I'm asking this because it could have a huge influence on the cleric's attitude and development.
Thank you!
Greetings Maerimydra,
When I saw the "Loremaster of Realms/D&D Cosmology" I thought, Oh Boy, maybe I can help... heh heh, and it's actually an area I have little knowledge of. I'm not sure if Orcus was killed by Kiaransalee (maybe just an avatar of his was destroyed and that might have caused him some trouble) but regarding be called Thanatos... I think that's what he has called his Abyssal realm... not himself... but I could be wrong about that as well. Seems to me there's a connection with Tenebreous (sp?) too, but not sure what that is.
But, back to your question (which I honestly don't know the answer to) I'd say that this event happens DURING the City of the Spider Queen, like maybe after your group has completed part one or two (and by the way), there is a great Dungeon Magazine issue that has an Underdark/Realms adventure that can be inserted into City of the Spider Queen (between parts 2 and 3 I think). I just can't remember the issue. (It does have an awesome Wayne Reynolds illithid on the cover, that much I recall).
Sorry, I really wasn't much help.
Dean
Thank you for your help KnightErrantJR and Minstrel_Wyrm!
You're both right, I confounded Thanatos (the name of Orcus' layer) with Tenebrous (the name of Orcus' shadow). Sorry about that. :)
As for the suggestion of the fall of Orcus happening DURING the City of the Spider Queen, I think that would be a great idea, because that would give to one of the PCs (a cleric of Orcus) a personal interest in the events featured in the module.
As for the Dungeon Magazine adventure, it's called Spiral of Manzessine. I'll probably include it into the module, but I'll do some changes to it, as I do for the whole module, because if I run it as it's written, then Spiral of Manzessine looks more like a random hack'n'slash extravaganza than a actual prison break. I think this adventure would be more interesting if the PCs are ensvaled by the illithids instead of simply running into their lair and slaying everything, just like in BG2. :D
To attempt to be more helpful, a few years back the Candlekeep crew brainstormed this issue a bit. If you take the Kiaransalee killed him hundreds of years ago thing as canon, then you can still make everything fit.
To make it work, Kiaransalee would have to have impersonated Orcus to lead his cult in the Bloodstone Lands. There is a precedence for this in the Realms, as Lolth has impersonated Moander, and Shar has impersonated Ilbrandul, etc.
So if this is the case, the Wand destroyed by Gareth Dragonbane had to be a fake, but we know that most of the avatars and aspects of Orcus have some form of Wand that isn't the full blown artifact, so it shouldn't be that strange for this to be the case.
You can make a case for Orcus' recent return based on a few references. First off, in the Bloodstone Lands product for 2nd edition, it mentions Banak, the high priest of Orcus mysteriously began to get his powers back, possibly gaining them from Orcus himself this time.
Also, the Unapproachable East sourcebook lists a cleric of Orcus as one of the NPCs. That would indicate that Orcus is alive again by the 3.0 timeframe of the Realms, and thus alive again before City of the Spider Queen.
If this is the case, its entirely possible that Kiaransalee is pushing into Lolth's domains because she lost Orcus' followers and lands.
Good point KnightErrantJR, I'll have to ponder on that. Either way, the PC won't lose his divine spells because: 1) Orcus do not die during the events of the module or 2) Orcus die, but Tenebrous chose the PC as his tool of revenge on the Prime and become a new "focus" that the PC can use to channel the dark power of the Abyss.
Another product that actually does give a time-frame for this (not sure how canon it's seen to be) is Knight of the Living Dead, the gamebook. It's set in a relatively modern Waterdeep, references all the bigshot names there, and does involve Orcus himself - and is directly stated to be contemporary with the Gareth Dragonsbane adventures.
I don't see what the fuss is about. Orcus did those things, then grew into a sedentary lifestyle, and was killed by Kiaransalee. He returned as Tenebrous, and some time later, he came back as Orcus. Why, out of curiosity, does it have to be hundreds and hundreds of years?
Why, out of curiosity, does it have to be hundreds and hundreds of years?
Predominantly because various Planescape sources as well as the Fiendish Codex Volume One states that it was hundreds of years . . . ;)
Why, out of curiosity, does it have to be hundreds and hundreds of years?Predominantly because various Planescape sources as well as the Fiendish Codex Volume One states that it was hundreds of years . . . ;)
Plus IMO the death of a GOD! should be a major cosmos shakeing event. Orcus wasn't "quite" a full GOD but he was very close.
if gods could come back so easily then tyche, amonautor,moander, bane, bhaal and myukrial should have been back years ago as well as the original Myrtral, Mystra and if you do 4th ed Midnight.The best example I have ever read of a deity comeing back was in Douglas Niles Moonshea Series called the Driud Home Trilogy and The EarthMother was able to come back because even though she had been killed her followers still activly supported her as opposed to the "new" gods. She had active followers and was able to return. There was no mention of some silly over god because he didn't exist during this time in the realms. The thing I find most telling during the series was at the momment of her death powerfull beings like Elminsteer and The Simbul and others of that sort felt it all across the realms.
Thats the way a gods death should be handled, as a major universal event not something so trivial (IMO) as it has become.
One note: anyone familiar with the Bloodstone lands will realize that the party of heroes in that series fought Orcus not too many years before the Time of Troubles. If the Dead Gods and Great Modron March indicate centuries have passed, that says that Orcus isn't back yet as the timeframe from the Bloodstone Wars to 4E is less than 200 years; the Godswar was only 20ish years before the final death of Mystra/Midnight.
Well, Gareth Dragonsbane was a character in the Year of Dragons trilogy. I am sure the Grand History of the Realms has the exact year for both the Knight of the Living Dead and the Bloodstone adventures. My guess would be somewhere in the 1340s or so.
Well, Gareth Dragonsbane was a character in the Year of Dragons trilogy. I am sure the Grand History of the Realms has the exact year for both the Knight of the Living Dead and the Bloodstone adventures. My guess would be somewhere in the 1340s or so.
I'm sure it does, too bad my copy is downstairs and I'm too lazy to go get it and look it up ;p
Yeah, I know. I feel something very similar. =)
Well, Gareth Dragonsbane was a character in the Year of Dragons trilogy. I am sure the Grand History of the Realms has the exact year for both the Knight of the Living Dead and the Bloodstone adventures. My guess would be somewhere in the 1340s or so.
I skimmed Grand History of the Realms from 1327 to 1356 and saw no mention of Gareth Dragonsbane. I knew I had read about him before then I finally remembered it was in relation to Bahamut when we were trying to determine when he became a god again in FR for our NWN persistent world.
Long story short, I jumped to 1359 DR and Gareth Dragonsbane is listed as returning from his trip to the Abyss that year with the stolen Wand of Orcus. It was smashed in the blood of an avatar of Tiamat and Bahamut entered an agreement to protect Damara from demons. So, at least that part is solved: Wand of Orcus smashed in 1359 DR.
Unfortunately that entry only references a "next" entry for Gareth, and that is in 1373, when he dies and his soul is trapped in the Shadow Plane.