Didn't read it all ;), but critical successes and failures don't apply to skill checks. Only attack rolls and saves AFAIK.
edit: This thread is funky. shows 13 replies on the forum, but I can only see mine. Blaming daylight savings change.
edit2: hehe, now several posts with similar responses are popping up. :)
Skill checks aren't subject to critical (automatic) successes.
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You're wrong. You don't automatically succeed when you roll a natural 20 on a skill check. (Just like you don't automatically fail when you roll a natural 1 on a skill check) That rule only applies to saves and attack rolls.
Now, to solve this problem. The player can only use this ability once per day, it's not such a big deal. Just force him to roll several knowledge checks per day, so he has to choose when to use this ability. He can't reroll this check the next day, because you're allowed only one roll.
There, problem solved.
i'm sorry i can't tell you EXACTLY what you want to know as i've never used artifacts nor bards with loremaster. But i know identifying magic items dont work like that. i know you can use a curtain knowledge to get command words and gain the history of the item. and a 20 is not a critical success with knowledge skills as far as i know, unless loremaster specifically states so. for example a knowledge arcana check would let you learn the abilities of a magical beast but the DC depends on the HD of the creature, whether you role a 20 or not you have to meet the DC still. If lore master says its a critical success then they would gain ONE peace of the items history a day not the WHOLE history and it would be gained from lowest dc to highest. to identify the magic properties of the artifact would be completely different. you might want to look up identifying magic items and the entry on artifacts.
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Point one: You think it's ok that the Bard can sing so prettily that the fighter hits harder, but its not ok for him to be able to access information that you can't come up with a rational explanation for? Really? You may be focusing on simulationism too much.
Point two: In the case you're talking about, it seems to me that the player wants a 20 on a knowledge history check to also count as a 20 on a knowledge arcana/religion test. That's obviously not going to work, right? So if the Bard uses Loremaster on a knowledge history you can tell him about historical individuals who used it, where they used it, and maybe a story that would allow the Bard to infer some knowledge about its abilities but another check would be needed to know about the artifact's magical properties.
In summation, I think your reasoning for not allowing the Bard to know something is ridiculous. But your ruling was probably right, regardless.
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There is no such thing as a critical success in skill checks. There is only a DC and whether you hit it. If the knowledge in question is so rare that no one should know it set the DC appropriately and he won't hit it by taking 20.
My bard has this ability and I'm not going to complain if on encountering some ancient terror recently awoken that no one has encountered or heard of in centuries I'm not able to hit the Knowledge DC to know everything about it.
I think your player is a bit "more right" than you.
However there is no critical skill success I think. (Altough, I as a GM, often house-rule it)
So he "just" gets a 20, if he has 5 ranks and takes 20 (so to say) he only clears something with DC 25, not everything.
Artifacts would probably have a DC of 35+
Only near epic characters are supposed to have them, so only near epic characters are supposed to know about them.
Also if you don't know what you're looking for, every knowledge skill should be impossible. You can't try to know what a staff of magi is, if you never heard about it.
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Take 20
When a character or creature has plenty of time, and is not faced with threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, he/it can take 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the check, just calculate the result as if the die had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you continue trying until you get it right, and assumes that you will fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties).
I'm pretty sure that there is no automatic success on a 20 anymore.
...nor failure on a 1.
..at least regarding skill checks.
I believe it now only applies to attacks and saves.
EDIT: (who may or may not have beards) agree...
Case 1. Players argument: The ability states that upon reaching level 5, that once per day a bard can as a standard action may take a roll of 20 on any knowledge skill that they have ranks in. A roll of 20 is always a critical success,
*record scratch noise*
No need to go any further. Not all rolls of 20 are automatic success. If you look at the section on using skills, it doesn't have anything about Automatic Failures and Successes.
By contrast, both the "Attack Roll" and "Saving Throw" sections do have a section about Automatic Failures and Successes.
Take 20 for the Bard ability simply means that his roll is treated as 20 + modifiers.
If he has a 14 Int (+2 bonus) and at level 5, so a total +7, the take 20 option gives him a "roll" of 27, and you get whatever information a 27 would give you.
*edit*
Odd, I see there's other posts on the main page, but can't see them when I go into the thread.
Sorry if my post I repeating something that's already been said!
I'm pretty sure that there is no automatic success on a 20 anymore.
Correct.
OP is fair in his arbitration.
Play on :)
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Well, first of all, you're interpreting the result of rolling a 20 on a Knowledge check incorrectly. A natural 20 is only an automatic success on an attack roll or saving throw, and only a "critical threat" on an attack. For skill checks, a 20 is just a 20 (plus relevant bonuses, of course). Rolling a 20 on a Knowledge check does not automatically tell you everything about a given subject. Generally, there are specific strata for Knowledge checks, with outlines given in the core rules for what information is available at what DC.
Second, since lore master doesn't make reference to bardic knowledge, it's not necessarily related to it at all. Bardic knowledge means you're better at sifting through pieces of random information to find the facts in them. Lore master allows you to put all of the things you know from that and your training together in one burst of significant insight. Think of it as a "Eureka!" moment, one in which the bard quickly mentally references not just every piece of legend and story about a topic, but the books he's read in the past, scholars he's spoken with, other bards who had heard of this thing and had their own theories... You see where I'm going with this, I hope.
Third, and this is advice rather than mechanics, your job as a GM is not to shut your players down when they want to use their character abilities. If you make it so that a bard specialized in knowledge skills can't use his abilities effectively, then all you're doing is making the game non-fun for that player. I'm not saying tell him everything all at once. Just set reasonable benchmarks for what information should be available at what DCs, and if he can make the check, then tell him.
Jeremy Puckett
Point one: You think it's ok that the Bard can sing so prettily that the fighter hits harder, but its not ok for him to be able to access information that you can't come up with a rational explanation for? Really?
Its a REAL LIFE(tm) mechanic:
+2 To all combat rolls for 4 minutesCLICK FOR BUFF
Third, and this is advice rather than mechanics, your job as a GM is not to shut your players down when they want to use their character abilities.
That said, sounds like the Bard in question has invested a mighty ONE POINT in a skill - kinda hoping for champagne outcomes on a beer budget methinks.
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O-o
Hey, no need to delete the post!
Perfectly valid question!
o_O
!
Don't leave me hanging here!
:O
There are wolves outside!
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There are no automatic successes, automatic failures, or critical successes with skill checks. It's merely your skill plus 1d20. That said, a 21+ result is enough to beat most knowledge DCs.
Knowledge that isn't available can't be known. However, with a very high knowledge check, the DM should take that to represent your character's ability to reason out some sort of clue, given much past experience in that field of study; such as, in the case of a mysterious artifact that has been secreted away for a millennia, "The esoteric monks at the Library of Lang have dealt with a similar curio in ages past, mayhap they could shed some insight."
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I am confuzzled..
Thread says '14 posts'..
I count two.
Both mine.
Waaaaaaah?
TECHNICAL SUPPORT!
I CAN'T WAKE UP!
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I strongly disagree with the above poster.
However, I cannot deny he's a handsome chap.
EDIT:
Weird.
When I posted here, I couldn't see any of the other posts..
O_O I blame.. THAT GUY!
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Unless I am mistaken with skills a natural 1 is not a auto or critical failure and a 20 is not a auto or critical success, I believe that is only for attacks.And I don't think with a knowledge history check alone would give him all the info on a artifact unless you ruled that the item was extremely well know throughout the populace of your world kind of like Michael Jacksons Glove or the Batmobile or something.
And i think your ruling either way is fair.
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Point one: You think it's ok that the Bard can sing so prettily that the fighter hits harder, but its not ok for him to be able to access information that you can't come up with a rational explanation for? Really?Its a REAL LIFE(tm) mechanic:
+2 To all combat rolls for 4 minutes
CLICK FOR BUFF
I said to myself, "self, this sh*t is just going to Rick-roll you." But then it didn't and I paused the movie I was watching to run around my living room and punch imaginary Mr T's.
Well done, sir.
I'm glad you had fun :)
I hadn't thought that someone might see it as a Rickroll trap...!
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Oh, yes i do. A bard channels arcane power though their music thus empowering it to give the desired effects. (AKA the difference between a bard and another class with a high perform skill.)However neither bardic knowledge nor the lore master ability say anything about magic being involved.
There's almost no flavor text for Loremaster and flavor text is not real rule anyway. Loremaster can be just as magical as Inspire Courage.
It's a magical frakkin world. Leave rationality at the door and play the silly game, silliness and all.
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Will you be my friend? I love it when people argue with me!
Even though I recognize that you were probably being ironic, I accept your offer of friendship. Your paperwork is in the mail. Would you like to come to Thanksgiving with me this year?
I'm glad you had fun :)
I hadn't thought that someone might see it as a Rickroll trap...!
It was totally excellent, Rick Astley anticipation and all. Job well done. I'm just glad my wife wasn't here to witness my antics.
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Maybe a little, but nonetheless I will look forward to future tirades between the two of us and know in all Ernest that you are like myself and only trying to have a good time.
+1 friend. Dern it not high enough for vorpal bonus.
You read dc comics by chance?
First of all, never call me Ernest. I may be be earnest from time to time but I will never be Jim Varney.
I read Batman when I hear of a well regarded story arc but I'm more of a Marvel guy alongside some of the small imprints.
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I'm glad you had fun :)
I hadn't thought that someone might see it as a Rickroll trap...!
This should replace the Rick Roll, imo.
Thats a NASTY DC25 Rickroll!
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Grats on your higher education achievement. Hope you have better luck than I did coming out of college.
Thank you. I'm actually a bit screwed right now. I got laid off from my job with the state of Maryland earlier this year and have been unable to break into work at the Federal or State level since. It's been a rough year. Add into that that I'm expecting my first child in April and you have a very sad beer dragon (for those that do not know, Yuengling is a beer brewed in PA). I believe I have sufficiently derailed this thread now. Further laurels are heaped upon my brow.