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I'm about to start a Lion Shaman character in an upcoming Serpent's Skull campaign. Purely for RP/flavor purposes I'd like to come up with a feline creature that would be appropriate for SNA I (of course I'll run it by my DM first, that goes without saying).
I've tried starting with an ordinary cat and adding 1 hd plus the giant creature and advanced creature templates, but although the resulting "wildcat" theoretically has the correct CR of 1 it appears overpowered compared to, say, the riding dog. Any suggestions on how to adjust this to be more balanced?
I'm about to start a Lion Shaman character in an upcoming Serpent's Skull campaign. Purely for RP/flavor purposes I'd like to come up with a feline creature that would be appropriate for SNA I (of course I'll run it by my DM first, that goes without saying).
I've tried starting with an ordinary cat and adding 1 hd plus the giant creature and advanced creature templates, but although the resulting "wildcat" theoretically has the correct CR of 1 it appears overpowered compared to, say, the riding dog. Any suggestions on how to adjust this to be more balanced?
Amusingly i am doing the exact same thing. Session 3 of serpent skull as a lion shaman this upcoming weekend. I didn't see anything worthwhile on a quick book perusal that would work for it, and have resigned myself to wait for 3rd level for the cat summons to come into play. Will just use normal summoning rules til then.
Dotted.
But building one from scratch won't be a chore.
How about a Young (simple template) leopard? That is a CR 1.
How about a Young (simple template) leopard? That is a CR 1.
Leopard is on the summon nature's ally 3 list, a Young(template) Leopard would shift it up to summon nature's ally 2. Looked at this one already, though the suggestion is appreciated. ;)
Well typically dogs and wolves have a strong bite attack, whereas a low level feline would like favor 2 claws.
Though you need to scale the damage output back to an appropriate level. HOWEVER, that is not really difficult. Look at the small pony for example, that attacks with a pair of hooves.
There are other style modifications one can make. For example: whereas the riding dog is a good tracker.. a feline will want Stealth. And so on.
At CR 1/3, none of the creatures are very different from each other except perhaps terrain (eagle, dog, dolphin).
I'm going to stat one up after dinner, and I'll post it here. I'll make it a generic 'wild cat'.
You could apply the young template to the leopard twice...? Would that not work to bring it down to SNA 1?
You could apply the young template to the leopard twice...? Would that not work to bring it down to SNA 1?
I'm honestly not sure if that is a viable method. Also as a side note, that critter would have an ungodly dexterity score.
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Simple templates were never meant as good solutions, they are a "toss one of these on when you're in a fix" tool for the DM. Adding more than one to the same creature goes against their design goal, as does using them on a creature that's intended to make more than a one-off appearance.
I stand by my recommendation of simply reflavoring an existing creature on the list (don't change any mechanics at all). If necessary you can just explain their attacks as a different attack type without actually making them different.
Well,
I did this for fun and practice. There are multiple ways to approach a simple creature design, so this is NOT meant to be the one, true, and only correct CR 1/2 feline... But I believe this is balanced and in accordance to good creature design as outlined in the Bestiary
XP 200
N Medium Animal
Init+3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 14, touch 13, flat-footed 11 (+3 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 9 (2d8)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +4 (1d4)
Special Attacks pounce
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD +14 (18 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +7, Perception +5, Stealth +8 (+12 in undergrowth); Racial Modifiers +4 on Stealth in undergrowth
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Ecology
====
Environment any forest
Organization solitary or pair
Treasure none
Eeeh, I might tweak it a little, eye-balling it to the Riding Dog.
But here are some design notes.
The Average Damage Output is 5 (two attacks with average of 2.5 assuming both hit). That is within parameters, if not on the high side. 4 is actually high. In comparion the Riding Dog has a damage output of 6 (or 3.5 + 3, rounded down)
AC is high for CR 1/2. It's hit points are 1 below the high threshold.
Pounce is a nice special attack, and it doesn't blow the damage output.
Saves look low compared to the Riding Dog, but they are within parameters.
Again, if I were to tweak, I might bump Str or Dex.. but instinct says that is about right.
Edit: Here is another version with a slight str boost. The damage output is now 7. That is higher than the Riding Dog, offset by less hit points.
XP 200
N Medium Animal
Init+3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5
====
Defense
====
AC 14, touch 13, flat-footed 11 (+3 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 9 (2d8)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +1
====
Offense
====
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +4 (1d4+1)
Special Attacks pounce
====
Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD +15 (19 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +7, Perception +5, Stealth +8 (+12 in undergrowth); Racial Modifiers +4 on Stealth in undergrowth
====
Ecology
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Environment any forest
Organization solitary or pair
Treasure none
Note that the Riding Dog was errata'd off of the SNA-I list, so it's not really a valid comparison for SNA-I power levels. The full list of SNA-I animals currently are Dire Rat, Dog, Dolphin, Eagle, Giant Centipede, Fire Beetle, Mite (gremlin), Poisonous Frog, Pony (horse), Stirge & Viper (snake).
I'd use the Dog as a starting point, but swap its Dex and Con scores (to 15 and 13 respectively). Give it two claw attacks at 1d3 (instead of a bite at 1d4), and call it a day.
Note that the Riding Dog was errata'd off of the SNA-I list, so it's not really a valid comparison for SNA-I power levels. The full list of SNA-I animals currently are Dire Rat, Dog, Dolphin, Eagle, Giant Centipede, Fire Beetle, Mite (gremlin), Poisonous Frog, Pony (horse), Stirge & Viper (snake).
I'd use the Dog as a starting point, but swap its Dex and Con scores (to 15 and 13 respectively). Give it two claw attacks at 1d3 (instead of a bite at 1d4), and call it a day.
Ah! I hadn't caught that! Thank you!
I've tried starting with an ordinary cat and adding 1 hd plus the giant creature and advanced creature templates, but although the resulting "wildcat" theoretically has the correct CR of 1 it appears overpowered compared to, say, the riding dog. Any suggestions on how to adjust this to be more balanced?
I'd just add the Giant template (no extra HD and no Advanced template). Not as good as an eagle, I guess, but comparable to a dire rat.
Took another stab at it, with the context that the Riding Dog is not an appropriate basis of comparison.
Incidentally I am the Gm in question, hence the meddlesome intrusion in the thread. ;)
Actually I wanted to make something from scratch just for the practice of balancing low creature CRs.
Here I have reduced the size. The Ref Save is not technically correct (technically should be 6), but neither are the dog's saves for that matter (the dog should have a Ref of 4 and a Fort of 6). I went with the assumption that is not a mistake as Paizo does fudge a little to strike a balance sometimes; so I followed suit.
Didn't format it this time, sorry!
Wild Cat CR 1/3
XP 200
N Small Animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 14, touch 13, flat-footed 11 (+3 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 5 (1d8+1)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +3 (1d3)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB -1; CMD +12 (16 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +6, Perception +5, Stealth +7 (+11 in undergrowth); Racial Modifiers +4 on Perception, and Stealth in undergrowth
====
Ecology
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Environment any forest
Organization solitary or pair
Treasure none