I do not understand the new Polymorph rules at all

[Zylo_Drizzt]

please help cause i really wanna play a good wildshaping druid and using master of many forms and warshaper. do the merge well? also thinking of adding in some dagger spell shaper. but first things first, gotta figure out the rules on wildshaping

[Funtastic]

Zylo_Drizzt wrote:

please help cause i really wanna play a good wildshaping druid and using master of many forms and warshaper. do the merge well? also thinking of adding in some dagger spell shaper. but first things first, gotta figure out the rules on wildshaping

Basically the wild shaping was changed into the ability to cast beast shape (modified slightly), which allows you to take on any animal/plant/elemental shape that the current spell level is suited for. There is a list of abilities you can possibly gain from the animal you turned into at the time. This standardizes how strong you can make your druid at any given level.

I could see Warshaper and dagger spell shaper working decently together, but (and this is only my own personal opinion) the Master of Many Forms was kind of an oops prestige class that most druids just seem to flock to, for broken abilities of monsters they could get by turning into them. Those abilities are supposed to scale well as a monster, but allowing players to gain these powerful abilities really makes it hard to gauge what your equivalent level is and makes life even more difficult as a DM.
I never liked the prestige class, just too much frommage to deal with.

[Zylo_Drizzt]

yes this much i realize, i am wondering on what ability scores you get for instance. what you lose and gain. the real mechanics behind the ability is what i really wanna know

[Rathendar]

Zylo_Drizzt wrote:

yes this much i realize, i am wondering on what ability scores you get for instance. what you lose and gain. the real mechanics behind the ability is what i really wanna know

You don't replace ability scores with PF wildshape, you gain bonuses to stats. Thus your base stats are always relevant and you don't get any cheesy dump stats turned into superstats simply by shifting.

[Funtastic]

Zylo_Drizzt wrote:

yes this much i realize, i am wondering on what ability scores you get for instance. what you lose and gain. the real mechanics behind the ability is what i really wanna know

You use your ability of wild shape, if for example you want to turn into a large (comparatively) bird like an eagle you follow the rules as per turning into a small creature.

This includes: Gaining a +2 size bonus to your dexterity and a +1 natural AC boost. You also get a fly speed of 30ft average, and low light vision because the base creature has these (or better). When you get Beast Shape II, you can fly up to 60 feet, and finally with beast shape III you can up your fly speed to the creatures best speed, 80 ft.
Compare what the spell says you can have for its level and what the creature has.

[Stubs McKenzie]

You use the spells directly for all changes... you keep your scores, and add bonuses based on what the spells give you, you don't get any extra abilities except those which the spells say you get, and any form of movement other than land speed is limited to the lists within the spells.

Having said that, a lot of the little things are missing from those lists, and some things are just silly. For instance:

a) If you turn into an electric eel you don't get to use any sort of electrical attack.

b) If you turn into an ink-shooting ocean creature, you can't shoot ink.

c) If you turn into a dolphin, however, you can breathe underwater just fine, where as dolphins obviously need to breathe air.

What they tried to do is make it easier to plan for future monsters, without unbalancing the druids wildshape ability, but instead just made it sort of nonsensical (to a point). Talk to your GM about some of those abilities to see if he will allow them, and please god don't let your dolphins breathe underwater! (Even the current natural dolphin can hold it's breath for way way longer than any dolphin could in real life, so you aren't going to be hurting by getting the SQ Hold Breathe)

EDIT: remember, polymorphing no longer turns you into the creature or thing you are trying to become, it just gives you a really really convincing "mask" to wear. Check out the description of the polymorph school for more specific info.

[Skylancer4]

Zylo_Drizzt wrote:

yes this much i realize, i am wondering on what ability scores you get for instance. what you lose and gain. the real mechanics behind the ability is what i really wanna know

If you have some inkling of what the master of many forms was like in 3.5 you will be extremely unhappy with the new rule set for wildshape and polymorph.

As others have said you no longer gain the forms ability scores, you instead look at the appropriate spell and add those size bonuses and apply penalties to the appropriate attributes. Also the new wildshape/polymorph school no longer grants a whole slew of abilities, but a very finite list of things gained.

Warshaper is pretty much portable right into PFRPG as is, just remember the errata/FAQ clarifications where the abilities and bonuses were only gained when polymorphed/wildshaped and not in your "normal" form.

MoMF's Improved wildshape and Extraordinary wildshape are the only abilities that definitely need to be looked at, everything else is pretty kosher. Improved wildshape will require the DM to dig through all the transmutation spells and match up which should become available at what level. Extraordinary wildshape should probably be taken out completely with the rules the way the Paizo has changed things as it no longer syncs at all with their intent/view of the ability.