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Lets say that someone leaves a square you threaten and provokes an AoO from you. You choose to use the trip CM in order to trip him. BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE improved trip feat.
My question is does your action provokes an AoO from the one that provoked your AoO? Is there generally a chain of AoOs or an AoO does not provoke an AoO?
Lets say that someone leaves a square you threaten and provokes an AoO from you. You choose to use the trip CM in order to trip him. BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE improved trip feat.
My question is does your action provokes an AoO from the one that provoked your AoO? Is there generally a chain of AoOs or an AoO does not provoke an AoO?
Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.
So you attempt the trip, they smack you deal damage and make it harder for you to trip them. Usually a lose situation as you are less likely to get the trip off (as you don't have the feat and are incurring a possible penalty) and are taking actual damage on top of it.
Lets say that someone leaves a square you threaten and provokes an AoO from you. You choose to use the trip CM in order to trip him. BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE improved trip feat.
My question is does your action provokes an AoO from the one that provoked your AoO? Is there generally a chain of AoOs or an AoO does not provoke an AoO?
Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.So you attempt the trip, they smack you deal damage and make it harder for you to trip them. Usually a lose situation as you are less likely to get the trip off (as you don't have the feat and are incurring a possible penalty) and are taking actual damage on top of it.
That's my problem :-) And now add to this that the opponent could also choose a trip CM as an AoP that also provokes an AoP from you So:
1) A moves away from B
2) B makes a trip AoP to A
3) A makes a trip AoP to B as a response to the AoP of B
4) now B can make an extra (if he has combat reflexes) AoP and so on
The above scenario is ridiculous IMO. So is there any rule that says that an AoP never provokes an AoP?
WIthout the Combat reflexes feat. You only get one AOP per round
Even with Combat reflexes feat, you only get your dex bonus in AOP. So the chain would be limited to 5 action in most cases, without super dex.
That's my problem :-) And now add to this that the opponent could also choose a trip CM as an AoP that also provokes an AoP from you So:
.
1) A moves away from B
2) B makes a trip AoP to A
3) A makes a trip AoP to B as a response to the AoP of B
4) now B can make an extra (if he has combat reflexes) AoP and so on
.
The above scenario is ridiculous IMO. So is there any rule that says that an AoP never provokes an AoP?
Well yes they could choose trip but honestly why would they? It doesn't give them anything really. I fully admit to being half asleep here so I might be off by a bit, but attempting to trip you doesn't make a lot of sense. That you are attempting a trip and they get an attack means they know you don't have the feat. If they are a non combatant type (lower BAB) it is more beneficial to them to try and deal damage to you so as to lower your chances of tripping them, win-win for them (damage and likely not tripped). If they are a combat type (high BAB and high damage likely too) they are getting a free hit on you and basically ensuring that the trip attack fails, again win-win for them (lots of damage and very likely not tripped).
While making you prone does have a benefit, they are moving away from you, that benefit is going to be lost for most intents and purposes. Also if they don't have the Improved Trip feat they are giving you a free attack... again losing proposition and all around bad move.
#4 only occurs if B has Greater Trip which allows the person with the feat to make an AoO when they trip someone. Improved Trip doesn't cause someone to provoke attacks when they trip an opponent in PFRPG (it did in 3.5 though if you were used it then). Also, there isn't any "so on" if they have trip, they won't provoke from you as they have the feat. Absolute worse case is it goes back and forth for several attempts as no one has at least Imp Trip - eventually one of you runs out of AoO's. The one with the highest number of AoO's will get first chance to trip the other person forcing them to prone position and likely meaning the tripped person's following trip attempts is significantly hampered on the person who went first.
If B does have Greater Trip, you're in a bad way and you caused it to yourself. You are fighting an uphill battle (they have a higher CMB/CMD than you having +'s from the Imp Trip and Greater Trip feats) but you are in a way lucky. Because of the trip you end up prone and eat an attack while you are down just before they move away.
While you might view it as ridiculous it is only that way as you tried to do a trip attack without having the feat. So again, it is kinda your fault for doing an "untrained" combat maneuver. You opened the can of worms by attempting that. It is messy but it is also fair and favors those who actually invest in the feats.
About the only thing that comes to mind for negating AoO is cover. If an opponent has cover relative to you, you cannot make AoO's against that target. Think of it as using the cover to block attacks. Other than that AoO are a good thing, why would you want to get rid of them?? They force tactical decisions and keep people form attempting things they shouldn't in combat (AKA if you aren't trained in tripping, DON'T try to trip).
WIthout the Combat reflexes feat. You only get one AOP per round
Even with Combat reflexes feat, you only get your dex bonus in AOP. So the chain would be limited to 5 action in most cases, without super dex.
I never said that the chain would be infinite. I agree with you and this is why I also said that the use of Combat Reflexes is necessary. The question is if an AoO can provoke one?
Let me rephrase :
You provoke an AoO when you let down your defense because of an action you took. So when you let your guard down the enemy finds an opportunity to strike. It seems weird that at the same time that you let your guard down and provoke you are still able to threat and perform AoO. Provoke AoO and still be able to perform one seem weird. I always had the idea that when you provoke you do not perform AoO but i there is nothing in the rules to support that.
Imagine A moving without withdraw, he turns his back to an enemy B, B takes the opportunity to strike him with trip CM but A suddenly says oooops you let your guard down B so while I leave I managed to see to you are vulnerable so I attack you. I you were able to perform an AoO you should be also able to not let your guard down, at least IMO.
Am I wrong? Opinions?
That's my problem :-) And now add to this that the opponent could also choose a trip CM as an AoP that also provokes an AoP from you So:
.
1) A moves away from B
2) B makes a trip AoP to A
3) A makes a trip AoP to B as a response to the AoP of B
4) now B can make an extra (if he has combat reflexes) AoP and so on
.
The above scenario is ridiculous IMO. So is there any rule that says that an AoP never provokes an AoP?Well yes they could choose trip but honestly why would they? It doesn't give them anything really. I fully admit to being half asleep here so I might be off by a bit, but attempting to trip you doesn't make a lot of sense. That you are attempting a trip and they get an attack means they know you don't have the feat. If they are a non combatant type (lower BAB) it is more beneficial to them to try and deal damage to you so as to lower your chances of tripping them, win-win for them (damage and likely not tripped). If they are a combat type (high BAB and high damage likely too) they are getting a free hit on you and basically ensuring that the trip attack fails, again win-win for them (lots of damage and very likely not tripped).
While making you prone does have a benefit, they are moving away from you, that benefit is going to be lost for most intents and purposes. Also if they don't have the Improved Trip feat they are giving you a free attack... again losing proposition and all around bad move.
#4 only occurs if B has Greater Trip which allows the person with the feat to make an AoO when they trip someone. Improved Trip doesn't cause someone to provoke attacks when they trip an opponent in PFRPG (it did in 3.5 though if you were used it then). Also, there isn't any "so on" if they have trip, they won't provoke from you as they have the feat. Absolute worse case is it goes back and forth for several attempts as no one has at least Imp Trip - eventually one of you runs out of AoO's. The one with the highest number of AoO's will get...
#4 doesn't need greater trip to happen. The attack that I describe in 4 is an AoO provoked by the AoO of your enemy. It is not the attack of Greater Trip. In my example none of the combatants have feats regarding trip, not even improved trip. The only feat necessary is combat reflexes in order be able to perform more than 1 AoO per turn.
The ridiculous word was used by me in order to describe situations where an AoO is a trigger for another AoO which is a trigger for an other and so on....
As I said above IMO when some provokes an AoO with an action, he should be unable to perform AoOs until the provoking action is over. So while he provokes he should not perform AoO.
Lets say that someone leaves a square you threaten and provokes an AoO from you. You choose to use the trip CM in order to trip him. BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE improved trip feat.
My question is does your action provokes an AoO from the one that provoked your AoO? Is there generally a chain of AoOs or an AoO does not provoke an AoO?
There is no exception in the rules for attacks of opportunity allowing you to do combat maneuvers you otherwise could not do without drawing an attack of opportunity: so yes, you can draw AoO from your AoO.
They're resolved in reverse order from how they were provoked: Last in first out. So if Your fighter tries to trip the rogue as he runs by and the rogue decides to disarm him , it turns out the fighter has combat reflexes and tries to disarm the rogue, who ALSO has combat reflexes, so the rogue decides to try to trip him.
1) The rougues trip attempt
2) The fighters disarm attempt
3) Rogues disarm attempt
4) The initial trip AoO
WIthout the Combat reflexes feat. You only get one AOP per round
Even with Combat reflexes feat, you only get your dex bonus in AOP. So the chain would be limited to 5 action in most cases, without super dex.
I never said that the chain would be infinite. I agree with you and this is why I also said that the use of Combat Reflexes is necessary. The question is if an AoO can provoke one?
Let me rephrase :
You provoke an AoO when you let down your defense because of an action you took. So when you let your guard down the enemy finds an opportunity to strike. It seems weird that at the same time that you let your guard down and provoke you are still able to threat and perform AoO. Provoke AoO and still be able to perform one seem weird. I always had the idea that when you provoke you do not perform AoO but i there is nothing in the rules to support that.
Imagine A moving without withdraw, he turns his back to an enemy B, B takes the opportunity to strike him with trip CM but A suddenly says oooops you let your guard down B so while I leave I managed to see to you are vulnerable so I attack you. I you were able to perform an AoO you should be also able to not let your guard down, at least IMO.
Am I wrong? Opinions?
Don't do things that leave you open to AoO? Take feats that allow you to do nifty things without provoking AoO? Either one of those solves your problem truthfully.
I believe the only applicable rule is that a single action can only provoke once. This was a 3.5 rule, but I believe the spirit carried over to PF.
This is why moving through 5 threaten squares only provokes a single AoO from each eligible person.
There are plenty of reasons why a person would try to intentionally provokes AoOs. If I am a fighter in full plate with a good AC, and I want to stop the bad guy from getting away, I will eat the AoO for a chance to put him on his butt and let my friends close the gap. Maybe we are trying to gang grapple the guy. Maybe I want to get the guy to burn his AoO so that my caster friend in melee can get a spell off.
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This is why moving through 5 threaten squares only provokes a single AoO from each eligible person.
That's news to me. Let's say Character A has Combat Reflexes, has a 16 Dex, and threatens squares 2, 3, 4, and 5, and Character B is in square 1, moving through 2 into square 3. She provokes when she leaves square 2, but Character A only gets one Attack of Opportunity, even though he has Combat Reflexes, because Character B did only one thing that provoked.
If Character B decides to move through 2, 3, 4, and 5, and end in square 6, she draws an AoA when she leaves square 2, another AoA when she leaves square 3 (because that's another provocation), another when she leaves square 4, and a fourth when she leaves square 5.
I would recommend Acrobatics.
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If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to see it.
This is why moving through 5 threaten squares only provokes a single AoO from each eligible person.That's news to me. Let's say Character A has Combat Reflexes, has a 16 Dex, and threatens squares 2, 3, 4, and 5, and Character B is in square 1, moving through 2 into square 3. She provokes when she leaves square 2, but Character A only gets one Attack of Opportunity, even though he has Combat Reflexes, because Character B did only one thing that provoked.
If Character B decides to move through 2, 3, 4, and 5, and end in square 6, she draws an AoA when she leaves square 2, another AoA when she leaves square 3 (because that's another provocation), another when she leaves square 4, and a fourth when she leaves square 5.
I would recommend Acrobatics.
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If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to see it.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
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Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.Thanks, Kae. I stand corrected.
It is correct that movement only provokes one AoO, but a character can choose when to take that AoO. It's the attack that is limited, not the opportunities.
So if a foe moves through 5 of my threatened squares they provoke for each square they leave. I can choose which opportunity to take my attack, though I only get to make a single attack for any of that foes movement in this round.
-Vrock the Vote
This is a house rule of course, but represents one of the possible solutions to simplifing such events:
Our GM decided that no one can perform AoO performing action as an AoO. Thus only someone with Improved Trip (or equivalent ability) can attempt Trip on opponent as AoO and so on.
This is a house rule of course, but represents one of the possible solutions to simplifing such events:
Our GM decided that no one can perform AoO performing action as an AoO. Thus only someone with Improved Trip (or equivalent ability) can attempt Trip on opponent as AoO and so on.
That'd suck for me. Disarming a bow user as my AoO to their provoking shot is my favorite thing to do in the entire game.
Well, technically unless that bow user has some kind of ability to perform attacks of opportunity with bow or third arm wielding weapon or is monk who can make unarmed attacks with any appendage he does not threaten you and thus you don't provoke attack of opportunity with your disarm attempt.
Also correction of my previous erroneous statement:
Our GM house ruled that one can perform AoO-triggering action as an AoO.
Well, technically unless that bow user has some kind of ability to perform attacks of opportunity with bow or third arm wielding weapon or is monk who can make unarmed attacks with any appendage he does not threaten you and thus you don't provoke attack of opportunity with your disarm attempt.
Also correction of my previous erroneous statement:
Our GM house ruled that one can perform AoO-triggering action as an AoO.
But how would you know ahead of time if the archer you're trying to disarm is capable of making monk-style unarmed AoOs?
I think if you're going to institute a rule like that it would have to be limited to things which don't provoke AoOs at all because you'd never know ahead of time if someone can or will take it.