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Picture this: a party consisting of a rogue, a druid and half dragon are ambushed by a pair of noble efreet. A few rounds later, outgunned with their hit points rapidly dwindling, the druid wild shapes into an air elemental, slipping into whirlwind form as soon as she is able. As a whirlwind, she sucks up the rogue and the half dragon and takes to the air in retreat. The efreet each have two fireballs remaining in their arsenal, so they manage to catch the group in one dual fireball before they're able to get out of range. The fireball kills the druid, so the half dragon unfurls its wings and makes a grab for the falling rogue, catching him just before he plummets out of reach. Since the half dragon doesn't fly nearly as fast as the druid as an air elemental, he can't get them out of range of the final pair of fireballs before they take their final parting shot.
So the question is this (in two parts):
1) While the rogue is basically tumbling helplessly inside the whirlwind, should he be able to use Evasion to avoid the fireball damage if he makes his save?
2) In the succeeding round, with the druid dead and the rogue now dangling from the grasp of his fleeing half dragon companion, should he get Evasion if he makes his save against the final fireball (since the half dragon doesn't have enough fly speed to get out of range in one round)?
Picture this: a party consisting of a rogue, a druid and half dragon are ambushed by a pair of noble efreet. A few rounds later, outgunned with their hit points rapidly dwindling, the druid wild shapes into an air elemental, slipping into whirlwind form as soon as she is able. As a whirlwind, she sucks up the rogue and the half dragon and takes to the air in retreat. The efreet each have two fireballs remaining in their arsenal, so they manage to catch the group in one dual fireball before they're able to get out of range. The fireball kills the druid, so the half dragon unfurls its wings and makes a grab for the falling rogue, catching him just before he plummets out of reach. Since the half dragon doesn't fly nearly as fast as the druid as an air elemental, he can't get them out of range of the final pair of fireballs before they take their final parting shot.
So the question is this (in two parts):
1) While the rogue is basically tumbling helplessly inside the whirlwind, should he be able to use Evasion to avoid the fireball damage if he makes his save?
2) In the succeeding round, with the druid dead and the rogue now dangling from the grasp of his fleeing half dragon companion, should he get Evasion if he makes his save against the final fireball (since the half dragon doesn't have enough fly speed to get out of range in one round)?
The short answer = Yes to both.
The longer answer. The rogue is concious and therefore his ability will work. You just have to 'wrap' a believable mental image around it. Keep in mind it also represents a degree of luck and reflex.
Therefore when the Rogue and Halfdragon are tumbling in the whirlwind, when the fireballs detonate the rogue just happens to be partly shielded by the Halfdragon at the time of detonation. When dangling from the limb, the rogue can twist his body enough that the other guy blocks part of the explosion from him. Etc. Etc.
I am not sure as to the rules now and don't have my PF book in front of me, but here is what I remember.
From my memory when you were immobilized (which I would rule the rogue effectively is in both cases) you were not allowed a reflex save. If you don't get a reflex save you don't get to use evasion.
So as I would run it and remember the rules short answer = No to both.
From my memory when you were immobilized (which I would rule the rogue effectively is in both cases)
So you would also allow someone to coup d'grace an enemy in the whirlwind?
Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls.
It says that you cannot move, but I take that to indicate that you cannot move yourself to another location, not that you are immobile. If you are immobile, why is it talking about the penalties for attack rolls?
The correct answer = Yes to both.
the roges gets evasion anytime he can make a refex safe for half damage.
Except if helpless or in med or heavy armor...
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind's volume. The whirlwind can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes as a free action, depositing them in its space.
A character in a whirlwind can make a reflex save, because he is not helpless. But as a -2 to his save (dex -4). I as a GM whould handel the secound case like the first. The carried chracter can not dodge the fireball as good as he could normaly (standing on his own feet) so he gets a dex/save penallty .. if he makes the save he gets no damage.
Breiti
From my memory when you were immobilized (which I would rule the rogue effectively is in both cases)So you would also allow someone to coup d'grace an enemy in the whirlwind?
Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls.It says that you cannot move, but I take that to indicate that you cannot move yourself to another location, not that you are immobile. If you are immobile, why is it talking about the penalties for attack rolls?
This is one of the cases were the rules simplify things a lot more than I want them to. But to be clear:
No I would not allow a coup de grace in a whirlwind because you are being thrown around too much to take the time to do it properly.
I would say that they are not able to move enough to make a reflex save against an incoming fireball, but they can move enough that if someone is right beside them they can take a swing at them or grap a passing branch. To me a reflex save requires significantly more movement of the body than being tossed arond by a whirlwind or carried by a flying person allows.
I would also have ruled that if the half-dragon had made the save then both of them would have taken half damage, or none if the half-dragon had evasion.
I realize this may not be a perfectly RAW ruling but it makes the most sense to me.
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To me a reflex save requires significantly more movement of the body than being tossed arond by a whirlwind or carried by a flying person allows.
This by itself is completely against the spirit of Reflex save. The reflex represents a combination of sheer dumb luck *and* skill. (your base reflex and the d20 being the "luck" portion). A blind deaf paralyzed unconscious paraplegic a lightning rod coming out of his head gets a reflex save. It may be at a dex of 0 with a -5 penalty for having a lightning rod (if it's electricity based), but they still get a shot.
That said, Evasion does work as you describe, except that it does *not* require more movement control than an attack. If you can attack and defend yourself, you get evasion. Period.
Remember that evasion is supposed to be one of those super-hero-like "you're just that damned good" types of abilities that (in some cases) defies physics (yes Ex abilities can do that, read the glossary).
So to the OP: Yes and yes. In both cases they would have used the already-present forces (the weight of the half-dragon and the whipping winds of the whirlwind (with their own air resistance)) to redirect themselves to a spot the fireball's flames just barely miss.
Double yes.
You loose evasion if you're immobilized. That's means bound and gagged, manacled hand and foot to a 10 ton boulder, or stuck in place with hold person. It doesn't even mean pinned. The rogue can curl up in the dragons hand, do mid air flips in the whirlwind, or whatever they want to use to justify it, but they dodge the fireball. Its not that much more unrealistic than being in a 10 by 10 room and dodging a 20 by 20 fireball.. If anything hiding behind the dragons blast shadow is more realistic.
To me a reflex save requires significantly more movement of the body than being tossed arond by a whirlwind or carried by a flying person allows.This by itself is completely against the spirit of Reflex save. The reflex represents a combination of sheer dumb luck *and* skill. (your base reflex and the d20 being the "luck" portion). A blind deaf paralyzed unconscious paraplegic a lightning rod coming out of his head gets a reflex save. It may be at a dex of 0 with a -5 penalty for having a lightning rod (if it's electricity based), but they still get a shot.
I wouldn't give him one in my game, but that's me. Despite what it may seem like I have almost never ended up denying someone a reflex save.
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I wouldn't give him one in my game, but that's me. Despite what it may seem like I have almost never ended up denying someone a reflex save.To me a reflex save requires significantly more movement of the body than being tossed arond by a whirlwind or carried by a flying person allows.This by itself is completely against the spirit of Reflex save. The reflex represents a combination of sheer dumb luck *and* skill. (your base reflex and the d20 being the "luck" portion). A blind deaf paralyzed unconscious paraplegic a lightning rod coming out of his head gets a reflex save. It may be at a dex of 0 with a -5 penalty for having a lightning rod (if it's electricity based), but they still get a shot.
My logic is basically "You know what, you only have a 5% chance to succeed this and all it will do is take part of the sting off. Have at."
This is one of those cases where you have to ask yourself as a DM, "what do I want?" If you want your players to have cool abilities that are powerful, useful, and cinematic then let that want colour your interpretation of the rules. Find a way to interpret them such that evasion works. If you don't... if you're the kind of DM that needs a justification BEFORE making a ruling, well, evasion doesn't work.
In my world, it does.
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This is one of those cases where you have to ask yourself as a DM, "what do I want?" If you want your players to have cool abilities that are powerful, useful, and cinematic then let that want colour your interpretation of the rules. Find a way to interpret them such that evasion works. If you don't... if you're the kind of DM that needs a justification BEFORE making a ruling, well, evasion doesn't work.
I'm actually in between the two. I like for the players to have cool and dynamic abilities, but I don't want them getting overpowered to the point of being silly and unassailable.
As to the argument over whether or not helpless creatures are entitled to a Reflex save, I'd say it's a judgment call. I cannot find anywhere where the RAW specifically outline a situation where a reflex save is not allowed, but neither can I find anywhere where it states that a reflex save can never be denied. In my game, if the character is bound, pinned, etc., the reflex save is halved (after subtracting all applicable dex penalties); and characters who are unconscious, paralyzed or subject to a hold person do not get a reflex save (because in my opinion, giving a reflex save in those situations is beyond silly).
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I wouldn't give him one in my game, but that's me. Despite what it may seem like I have almost never ended up denying someone a reflex save.To me a reflex save requires significantly more movement of the body than being tossed arond by a whirlwind or carried by a flying person allows.This by itself is completely against the spirit of Reflex save. The reflex represents a combination of sheer dumb luck *and* skill. (your base reflex and the d20 being the "luck" portion). A blind deaf paralyzed unconscious paraplegic a lightning rod coming out of his head gets a reflex save. It may be at a dex of 0 with a -5 penalty for having a lightning rod (if it's electricity based), but they still get a shot.
Theres not really an argument here. In your game your welcome to introduce any house rule you like :), and it may well be worth debating your house-rule for the benefit of the OP.
But to the OP- Remember even in the RAW a character still takes big penalties in most situations where Admiral would be house-ruling them not getting one. An unconcious character for example, is treated as having dexterity 0 for reflex savs- for a 20 Dexterity Halfling thats a hefty -10 to his reflex save, effectively only leaving him luck and magical protection to help him (and a few other factors, but the majority comes in here).