So i've been contemplating making a character that can use most of the combat maneuvers. I'm planning on starting him with 4 levels of monk to get a ki pool and some other nice goodies. Also I figure if i'm taking the -1 to BA i might as well get the other nice stuff the class offers. This also does not effect my # of feats as the monk gets 2 in the first 4 levels which is the same I would get for any 4 fighter levels (except 1 and 2 which i will be taking anyways) After this it's all out fighter with weapon training in polearms, and then monk weapons.
I plan on weilding a ranseur or gurasame depending on what I'm fighting (and what maneuver is most effective), as well as using a monks robe and unarmed strike for 5' attacks.
I would like some advice on what maneuvers to take to greater status, which ones I should simply avoid, and what can be effective at only improved. Right now I'm looking at skipping reposition, and dirty trick. I'm also going to skip greater sunder as I don't want to piss off the party by destroying all the loot. Everything else is fair game. Steal Looks pretty sweet though again the greater version seems bad since the opponent will likely see his item in my hand anyways. Also trip and disarm are high priority and I'm pretty sure I will use the greater version of both. This is because they both are usable with flurry of blows and have useful greater abilities (AoO and weapon knocked 15ft away) Any help is welcome even if it is telling me this build is stupid and I need to do something else.
Race is also up in the air.
Monk dips for fighter are absolute garbage. You end up needing a higher wisdom, because your AC will suffer otherwise. You lose a point of BAB for some skills and Evasion, and the ability to make an extra attack with terrible weapons. Besides, the -2 attack when flurrying is kind of rough.
As combat maneuvers go, Trip, Disarm and Grapple are the money-makers. Improved Grapple is great for beating up enemy casters. Bull Rush is okay, and if have the feats to burn, I'd recommend it, but otherwise I'd say no. And none of the maneuvers in the APG have ever impressed me (except Dirty Trick, but that's because I'm a jerk).
Greater Disarm is kind of garbagey, because if your enemy provokes an AoO while picking up his weapon, you can trip him. Then with Greater Trip, you can smack him. Then when he goes to stand up, you can disarm him.
IMO, the best bang for your buck is going to be a Barbarian/Fighter. I'd go Barb 12/Fighter 8, with the two-handed fighter variant from the APG. For Rage Powers, I'd take Strength Surge, Knockdown (APG), the Beast Totem tree (APG), and either Quick Reflexes or No Escape. You end up with a +3 natural armor bonus to counteract your hit to AC when you rage, and you get Pounce, which is a delight for anyone, and claws for grappling. So you can rage, charge, lead in with Greater Trip, and if you trip him, still get a full attack, with the crazy bonuses from rage, and Weapon Training on your Guisarme.
The other advantage to this is you can still pump out damage like a boss if you have to, and you end up with a butt-ton more hitpoints. Can you disarm or trip a dragon? Besides, if you take the Invulnerable Rager Barbarian Variant, you end up with DR 6/-. And that's nice too.
Were I to do this, I'd probably take the first level Barbarian, and then take all eight levels of fighter between levels 12-14.
For race, if I really wanted the feat I'd go Human. But Half-Orc and Half-Elf are both decent choices; for all three, I'd put the +2 in Strength. I'm also a fan of full orc, in the Bestiary, because a +8 strength bonus at level one makes DMs cry, even if you're a bumbling idiot.
I did a build similar to your Monk/Fighter. Though I only went with 2 levels of Monk. I went with STR14/DEX18/CON12/INT13/WIS14/CHA10 (I know! why not CHA7?)
I understand the drawbacks of the monk levels, but it seems so characterful for the concept :)
The Fighter levels are as a Free Hand Fighter. Free Hand gives an accumulating bonus to Disarm and to Bluff for Feint, Elusive (extra Dodge AC), Damage Bonus when using any single weapon, and by level 9 the ability to remove an enemy's Shield bonus to AC. The monk levels are taken first, then into fighter.
Feats are:
1st-Combat Expert/Dodge/Agile Maneuvers
2nd-Combat Reflexes
3rd-Imp Trip and Imp Disarm
4th-Weapon Foc-Scimi (not optimized, but characterful!)
5th-Mobility
6th-Weapon Spec-Scimi
7th-Greater Trip
8th-Greater Disarm (I am thinking about swapping it out for another Improved Manuever)
9th-Imp Crit-Scimi
10th-Tripping Strike
11th-Greater Weapon Foc-Scimi
... and so on...
Again, not by any means an "optimized build," but fun, stylish and (IMO) pretty solid regardless.
I hope you enjoy playing your technique fighter, no matter how you choose to build it :)
GNOME
I don't think you gain much by dipping into monk either. You can get a nice CMD if you can afford a high dex AND wis, but you lose a point of BAB and gain armor troubles, so this isn't much of a tradeoff. You could drop the armor entirely, lower your strength, max out dex and take Agile Maneuvers, but that costs a feat and hurts your damage if/when you actually do want to bring the pain. I think I would go with straight Fighter OR Monk, without crossing.
Bull Rush is okay, but I like Overrun better, really. Overrunning an opponent to get into flanking position, tripping them in the process, and getting an AoO on a flanked, prone opponent is a great way to set up a fight. If I were to get involved in the Power Attack maneuver trees, I'd start there. Otherwise, I agree that you can do the most with disarm, trip and grapple.
I wish Greater Sunder was better, too. If it transferred damage on a break, not just a destroy, it would be okay; if you got a free attack or AoO it would potentially be even better. But as it is, it doesn't compete with trip.
In terms of race, Human seems the best to me. You'll make good use of the feat, the extra skill point lets you dump Int a little more, and most of all, if you take the optional Fighter favoured levels you get to pick two maneuvers and gain a +1 CMD to each, per level. Definitely pick grapple, as you'll use your grapple CMD all the time. Trip is probably the best second choice, with disarm a close third.
Monk dips for fighter are absolute garbage.
Piffle. Two levels of monk gives you four feats (IUS, Stunning Fist or the equivalent, and two monk bonus feats), a bonus to Will and Reflex saves, and evasion at a bare minimum. All of those are usable with armor.
Shizzle, I'd recommend the Weapon Adept monk variant from the APG.
Thanks for all your responses. I thought this thread was dead but someone brought it back up. My monk levels were mainly for the wisdom bonus to cmd as well as having feet count as weapons for when someone gets inside my reach weapon. Bracers of armor were my plan since I want a good dex for CMD as well and want to get mileage out of it. I know they are ridiculously expensive but my AC will actually be higher than straight platemail plus i get to keep evasion, and ki point stuff. I should be able to roll stats for this guy so dump stats wont happen cuz my dm likes high power.
The biggest thing I dislike about this build is the lack of AC. Everything else just sings :) Evasion! Better Saves! Better CMD! and, more Feats! (by 4th level Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, +2 others, and then your two fighter feats and three 'regular' feats for being 4th level Human)
+8 Bracers
DEX 28 (+6 item)
WIS 20 (+6 item)
total: +22
CMD: 41
total cost: 136k gold
+5 Mithril Full Plate (+14)
+5 Large Shield (+7)
DEX 24 (+6 Item)
total: +28
CMD: 37
total cost: 96.5k gold
I omitted the Deflection/Natural/Feats that anyone can use. assuming 16th level I added +4 level bonuses to DEX, and a 14STR/DEX18/WIS14 and STR18/DEX14 respectively.
Other things to note is the Monk hybrid gets a better Touch AC (useful in many instances), Evasion that counts for a lot in certain fights and and some extra tactical flexibility by having a weapon always in hand.
Overall, how you build your character is up to you. There are arguments for "optimization" as well as for Character. I think characters should be both fun to play and capable. Well thought out, but not to the exclusion of 'concept'
I am excited to get the chance to play using this character :D If you get to play your Monk can you let us know how it works out?
GNOME
Monk dips for fighter are absolute garbage.Piffle. Two levels of monk gives you four feats (IUS, Stunning Fist or the equivalent, and two monk bonus feats), a bonus to Will and Reflex saves, and evasion at a bare minimum. All of those are usable with armor.
Shizzle, I'd recommend the Weapon Adept monk variant from the APG.
... except for evasion, which is not usable in armor if you get it from monk levels.
Many of a monks features, Wisdom to CMD, Maneuver training, bonus feats are meant to raise there ability to perform combat maneuvers to about the same as a fighter of the same level. As things go, they end up with a slightly higher CMD but that is all.
So you could go with either class and accomplish the same things. However if you want to take combat expertise to open up more improved combat maneuver feats then the fighter is going to have a lot less attribute requirements than the monk. The monk needs strength, wisdom, dexterity, and constitution. Throwing an Intelligence 13 in there is going to really stretch your attribute points thin.
If you want to be a monk who is good at maneuvers I would drop the ranseur and or guisarme and pick up the temple sword. Make your strength your highest attribute, since it factors into CMB and CMD. Put your attribute bonuses into strength every time.
Use the Weapon Adept archetype, which let will let you roll twice on your CMB checks (check with your DM about using a temple sword with it. It seems weird that all of the normal monk weapons are listed in perfect strike, but NOT the temple sword or brass knuckles). Another route if you are looking to cash in on reach, is to ask you GM about letting you use an Eberron feat that lets you use the longspear as a monk weapon. Not the same as a ranseur but you can still use it to trip.
When adventuring hopefully you will find items that boost your attack bonus. Anything that boosts your attack bonus improves your ability to perform maneuvers, as a CMB check is just an attack roll.
If you want to be a monk who is good at maneuvers I would drop the ranseur and or guisarme and pick up the temple sword.
+1
If you max out Strength and use a temple sword, I'd see if the GM would allow the Blade Binder feat from the Campaign Guide. Then, take Medusa's Wrath as your 10th level bonus feat. Your first attack in a flurry will be used to bind an opponent's weapon which makes them flat footed. Then you can wail on them with unarmed strikes, including the 2 extra attacks from Medusa's Wrath and the extra attack for spending a ki point.
I put together a build that uses Blade Binder, Punishing Kick (from Hungry Ghost), and Enforcer to really debuff a single armed opponent. It starts as a grappler but moves on to blade binding as it's main maneuver.
It culminates at level 10 With Medusa's Wrath, but level 11 you get that extra flurry attack and can pick up Stunning Fist.
Level 11 Flurry attacks
Attack 1 - Bind opponent's weapon --> Flatfooted
Attack 2 - Unarmed Strike-Punishing Kick -->Prone
if nonlethal, Enforcer -->Demoralize-->Shaken
Attack 3 - Bonus unarmed Ki attack-Stunning Fist -->Stunned
Attacks 4 and 5 - Bonus unarmed attacks from Medusa's Wrath
Attacks 6, 7, and 8 - Remaining flurry unarmed strikes.
So the opponent is flat-footed, prone, shaken and stunned just as you're starting your flurry. The temple sword is occupied with binding the opponent's weapon so you can't use if for the rest of the flurry, but brass knuckles or any other one-handed monk weapon can be substituted.
If you're fighting something without a weapon, or a caster, or the target of your blade bind drops their weapon, this build uses improved and greater grapple as a viable second option to take them out of the fight completely.
... except for evasion, which is not usable in armor if you get it from monk levels.Piffle. Two levels of monk gives you four feats (IUS, Stunning Fist or the equivalent, and two monk bonus feats), a bonus to Will and Reflex saves, and evasion at a bare minimum. All of those are usable with armor.
Shizzle, I'd recommend the Weapon Adept monk variant from the APG.
From the PRD:
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher, a monk can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Same as in 3.5.
so I've decided to start 2 fighter then 4 monk then fighter until I feel the need for more monk stuff. Honestly the fighter build may be better at CMB but that's going to be a bane when the vampire charms me and tells me to trip/grapple our own mage. The monk is going to run into that a lot less because as you said he's MAD as heck but with save stats. I should be able to roll stats thereby minimizing dump stats. I run with good dms who appreciate concepts and flexibility so I should be able to pull off str:18, Dex:16, con:14, int:13, wis:14, cha:7. Thats 30 points assuming point buy. Knowing my DM i'll probably end up 1-2 higher in each stat but STR. Thanks for the suggestions on the weapon adept monk nothing sucks more than botching a CMB roll on a mage who you can't normally loose against.