So I have a Ranger knocking on the door of 10th level, which means L7 Druid pets, and I am trying to compare the Lge Cat V the Wolf and it would ***appear*** that the Cat is a significantly more substantial combat monster than the Wolf, and that there would be no compelling reason to take a wolf other than flavour.
Is it really this one sided (Cat is the real only choice) or are there tricks to the Wolves I'm just not seeing here?
1 attack (Wolf) vs multiple attacks including grab pounce and rake... 5 attacks from a Cat are a lot more brutal than one chomp!
A wolf has more speed and a free trip. The cat looks to be a more reliable damage dealer, but the wolf can control the battlefield which can be just as effective.
WOLF
Size Large;
Speed 50 ft.;
AC +8 natural armor;
Attack bite (1d8+6 plus trip);
Ability Scores Str 23, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6;
Special Qualities scent.
+1 Stat upgrade
CAT
Size Large;
Speed 40 ft.;
AC +7 natural armor;
Attack bite (1d8+6), 2 claws (1d6+6);
Ability Scores Str 23, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 3, Wis 15, Cha 10;
Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6+6) .
Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
+1 Stat upgrade
They both have scent.
Whilst the wolf can trip, the cat can grapple with a bite (via Grab) - as well as pounce - in order to bring its rake to bear as well.
The Cat also has a better Wis and Cha (ok so no REAL biggie) and has low light vision the Wolf lacks.
The wolf gains 10' of move, 1 better natual armour, and doesnt end up in a grapple when downing a foe.
Unless I have the mechanics wrong!
No you don’t have the mechanics wrong... but grapple does not trump trip IMO. If you want mo’ damage, mo' damage go with the cat. But the wolf does have some pros.
Yes. If all you are looking at is the min/max aspect of it the cat wins every time.
Not sure it's totally min/max - there appears to be a big power discrepancy between the two. I guess it comes down to how much you are prepared to pay for that flavour...
I was kinda hoping there would be a bit more oomph Wolf love, but seems that 'big cat>all' when it comes to pets.
| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
So I have a Ranger knocking on the door of 10th level, which means L7 Druid pets, and I am trying to compare the Lge Cat V the Wolf and it would ***appear*** that the Cat is a significantly more substantial combat monster than the Wolf, and that there would be no compelling reason to take a wolf other than flavour.
Is it really this one sided (Cat is the real only choice) or are there tricks to the Wolves I'm just not seeing here?
1 attack (Wolf) vs multiple attacks including grab pounce and rake... 5 attacks from a Cat are a lot more brutal than one chomp!
Yes, the Large Cat is a far better choice than the Wolf in terms of number of attacks and arguably in terms of special abilities as well. IMHO, Pounce, Rake, and Grab far outweigh the Wolf's Trip ability. So yes, if you were a Druid the Large Cat would probably be better, unless you simply liked the Wolf for RP value. However, you are not a Druid, you are a Ranger. Rangers do not get to choose Cat (Large) as an Animal Companion; they can only choose Cat (Small). The Small Cat has a completely different set of stats and special qualities from the Large Cat and is much more comparable to the Wolf.
SMALL CAT
Size: Medium
Speed: 50 feet
AC: +5 Natural Armor
Attacks: Bite (1d6 plus Trip), 2 Claws (1d3)
Ability Scores: STR 18, DEX 21, CON 15, INT 2, WIS 12, CHA 6
Special Attacks: Bite plus Trip
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, Sprint
For the record, I think it is a bit odd that the Wolf doesn't have Low-Light Vision. Especially when even a Dog (smaller, domesticated version of a Wolf) does have it. Also the Wolf in the Monster Manual has Low-Light Vision as well. So in my opinion it is a matter for Errata or possibly FAQ, or maybe just a house-rule. If I was the DM I would give allow the Ranger/Druid Wolf companion to have Low-Light Vision.
A shame; I haven't seen a non-cat Druid in ages. Maybe if wolf got iterative attacks because it only has one attack (like a PC or Eidilon) it would improve. In most situations I do prefer trip to grapple though.
Actually the Wolf would get AN Iterative Attack. Only one though; read the Multiattack special ability in the Animal Companion Base Statistics table under Druids.
Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.
The Wolf only has one attack with one natural weapon. So it in fact would gain an Iterative Attack at a -5 penalty.
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Oh, well there you go. Then the wolf's advantages are:
*All attacks channel through bite, so improved natural etc will do wonders. Same with Magic Fang, which does not have to be cast in the "+1 to all" variant. And haste of course works better with them.
*Trip is often on par and usually better than grab. At least you can trip large-sized, and it doesn't drop the wolf's AC
*Fast movement = more flanking and chasing down opponents.
I think pounce is VASTLY overrated; with charging difficulty, especially at the beginning of battle, it is often impossible to charge. So maybe cats really are just better. "on paper", until I see more situations where cats actually pounce I feel their greatest draw.
Nice pick ups Shadow!
Except the bit I missed about Rangers not getting the big cats :p
All that being said, the Big Cats as written do seem to have it in the bag, but for Rangers, given the list we have, I think the Wolf>Small Cat.
And the Low Light issue really does need to go through the errata machine.
I think pounce is VASTLY overrated; with charging difficulty, especially at the beginning of battle, it is often impossible to charge. So maybe cats really are just better. "on paper", until I see more situations where cats actually pounce I feel their greatest draw.
True, if terrain were run the way it is supposed to be run, almost everything we fight on would be considered difficult terrain. Charging would almost never be possible.
Nice pick ups Shadow!
Thanks.
Except the bit I missed about Rangers not getting the big cats :p
I know, it couldn't be helped.
All that being said, the Big Cats as written do seem to have it in the bag, but for Rangers, given the list we have, I think the Wolf>Small Cat.
It depends what you are going for. The small cats are not bad either, my wife runs a Ranger with a small cat Animal Companion and it has been pretty surprisingly effective. I actually think the Badgers/Wolverines are pretty cool with their rage ability. Plus they have scent, low-light vision, 10' burrow speed, and 10' climb speed. They aren't as strong though, and don't trip so wouldn't be as good at battle field control. Their only combat strength comes from Rage and they can only do that for 6 rounds per day. But they would still be pretty interesting for RP and good pets to have around in certain situations.
And the Low Light issue really does need to go through the errata machine.
Agreed.
I wouldn’t chalk all of the wolf’s allure up to RP, though. It looks like you just have to play the wolf more like part of a pack (the party) in combat - or in other words, like a controller – to make it as effective as the large cat with its massive damage potential.
Just wanted to add as a disclaimer: I have not played either pet in a long time (never in PF), so I am only arm-chair coaching here. :)
P.S. Do I dare start a tread on trip vs. grapple? Hummm....
The Small cats seem to be a very good choice and come with trip and fast movement, very handy for that control factor.
I think I'll be rolling with the Wolf option for my 10th Rngr.
Go with a bit of Intimidate skill + Weapon Focus/Intimidating prowess/Dazzling display and you have a pretty good way to start messing up the battlefield against medium sized opponents. The poor Cha hurts, but the beefy strength addition via IP and the modifier for being Large makes it 'viable'.
Or is this just too kooky? :p
Good points been made so far, the thing I notice hasnt been mentioned is the fact that a large cat (tiger) is CR 4 where as a wolf is CR 1 even a dire wolf is still only CR 3. When I have had players want to have a wolf and then point out the diffrence I have let them take a dire wolf instead. My thinking behind this is thinks given as part of an ability like this should at least be of equal CR.
Just my 2cp :)
The Small cats seem to be a very good choice and come with trip and fast movement, very handy for that control factor.
Well my wife has enjoyed using that companion. And it has been quite useful with it's high movement rate and trip ability. She gave it Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers so it would be viable. It's STR is too low to be of much use even after it's stat increase at level 7. (Oh another nice thing about the small cats, they reache adulthood at Druid Level 4 or Ranger 7. The wolf and large cats reach it at Druid 7 or Ranger 10) I have nothing negative to say about it, It has served her and the party well.
I think I'll be rolling with the Wolf option for my 10th Rngr.
Go with a bit of Intimidate skill + Weapon Focus/Intimidating prowess/Dazzling display and you have a pretty good way to start messing up the battlefield against medium sized opponents. The poor Cha hurts, but the beefy strength addition via IP and the modifier for being Large makes it 'viable'.Or is this just too kooky? :p
I would have to put it down on paper and see how it plays out. But that sounds like a really effective Animal Companion. I like the idea. Just remember to put that Ability score bonus into INT so your Animal Companion has access to feats not on the Animal Feats list (Dazzling Display).
Good points been made so far, the thing I notice hasnt been mentioned is the fact that a large cat (tiger) is CR 4 where as a wolf is CR 1 even a dire wolf is still only CR 3. When I have had players want to have a wolf and then point out the diffrence I have let them take a dire wolf instead. My thinking behind this is thinks given as part of an ability like this should at least be of equal CR.
You are correct that Tiger has a far higher CR than Wolf. But you also have to take into consideration that the stats and abilities presented on the Animal Companion chart are quite different in some cases from the standard animals in the monster index. For instance, after it reaches level advancement, the Wolf is actually nearly the same thing as the Dire Wolf in the index. The Badger/Wolverine is almost the same thing as the Dire Wolverine in the index. The Large Cat is actually a little bit weaker than it's Tiger counterpart in the index. Although when you add all the bonuses they get from being Animal Companions they are relatively equal in most ways. The Large Cat does seem to have an advantage in number of attacks and abilities. However, as pointed out, some of those abilities would be rarely used if the Terrain rules were being properly employed. I will agree with you that not all of the companions seem equal. But I think the designers did a fair job of evening them out. They didn't just take the standard stats from the monster index and slap it on the Animal Companion list.
Also consider that the Animal Companion list is more fluid than the way most players use it. Druids and Rangers can dismiss their current companion at any time and within 24 hours gain a new one which, in my mind, should mean that you can use the ability very fluidly, utilizing the companion that you need at that specific time for that specific task. Also it means that if you chose a companion that is very effective at low levels and reaches advancement at Drd lvl 4 or Rgr lvl 7 and utilize that companion until Drd lvl 7 or Rgr lvl 10 when you may opt to choose a more powerful Animal Companion with the higher level advancement.