If I hit an invisible creature with marker dye, would the dye become invisible along with the creature? Or would there be a nice visible patch of dye at which to aim? I can also imagine that the dye would be visible until the creature disappears again.
Objects on a creature are usually considered to be attended by the creature and therefore are affects as such. This is why you can't just shoot an invisible creature with an arrow and just follow the arrow around.
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If I hit an invisible creature with marker dye, would the dye become invisible along with the creature? Or would there be a nice visible patch of dye at which to aim? I can also imagine that the dye would be visible until the creature disappears again.Objects on a creature are usually considered to be attended by the creature and therefore are affects as such. This is why you can't just shoot an invisible creature with an arrow and just follow the arrow around.
Yeah, that's about what I figured. I was hoping I was wrong, though. I guess I'll just have to wait until I can buy Dust of Appearance. At least I have enough PA to buy potions of See Invisibility.
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From the Glossary:
PRD on Invisibility[/url]]
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).
So the marker dye would stay. At least until removed (great use of the prestidigitation spell).
Also, yes, the arrow would be visible until it is removed or covered with your cloak.
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From the Glossary:
So the marker dye would stay. At least until removed (great use of the prestidigitation spell).PRD on Invisibility[/url]]
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).
Oooh...I like this answer much better than the other one.
I still think that if a creature appeared and then disappeared (our party had a spot of trouble with imps once) the dye would disappear along with the creature, just as a person's clothing becomes invisible with him.
But this does make me wonder about Abraham's arrow example. Maybe you could still see the arrow that just hit the creature.
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From the Glossary:
So the marker dye would stay. At least until removed (great use of the prestidigitation spell).PRD on Invisibility[/url]]
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).Oooh...I like this answer much better than the other one.
I still think that if a creature appeared and then disappeared (our party had a spot of trouble with imps once) the dye would disappear along with the creature.
Depends on how you look at it. By the RAW, it should not. I can see how it could be house-ruled like that though. but then you get the situation we had in one game where the gnome claimed to be the property of the barbarian (and ride on his shoulders) so that they could both benefit from one invisibility spell.
Fortunately living creatures are not objects even if they can be owned and therefore don't get the attended object rule.
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I double-checked the description of the Invisibility spell. It looks as if I were right when I thought that the dye would vanish if an invisible creature appeared and then disappeared again.
The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too.
I would have to think that a splotch of dye on the creature would count as gear that the creature is carrying.
So, if I hit an invisible creature with dye, the dye would be visible (per the glossary) until the creature renewed its invisibility. So marker dye would not be very useful against a creature like an imp that can become invisible at will.|
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I double-checked the description of the Invisibility spell. It looks as if I were right when I thought that the dye would vanish if an invisible creature appeared and then disappeared again.
The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too.I would have to think that a splotch of dye on the creature would count as gear that the creature is carrying.
So, if I hit an invisible creature with dye, the dye would be visible (per the glossary) until the creature renewed its invisibility. So marker dye would not be very useful against a creature like an imp that can become invisible at will.
But it does state that if the invisible character picks up an object, it stays visible until it is tucked in a pocked or covered by a cloak. The invisibility spell only makes invisible what the character had on them when they where hit with the spell. Any other reading is not RAW or RAI.
Please read this section again:
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).
Nothing in the spell changes it either, in fact, it restates the same line:
Invisivility Spell description:
The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
So, unless the character is covering the marker dye with a cloak, then it is visible. There is no "attended Object" rule for invisibility anymore.
He doesn't need to tuck it in -- it's already an item in possession. Since you know you marked something of his that he already had on. It just doesn't show up because it's still his -- you simply made a modification that won't show until he does.
Mainly because he never picked anything up.
I will point out that this has already been thought about years ago and the elegant nonmagical solution to magical invisibility is here:
But the Queen was an exceedingly wise and prudent woman. She now took her gold scissors, cut a large piece of silk stuff into strips, and sewed these strips together, to make a pretty neat little bag. This bag she filled with the finest, whitest flour, tied it to the Princess's waist, and then again took up her golden scissors and cut a little hole in the bag, just large enough to let the flour drop out gradually all the time the Princess was moving.
That evening the dog came again, took the Princess on his back, and ran away with her to the soldier. He never perceived how the flour went drip, drip, dripping, all the way from the palace to the soldier's room, and from the soldier's room back to the palace. So next morning the King and Queen easily found where their daughter had been carried, and they took the soldier and cast him into prison.
So, basically "queen's silk flour sack" + tanglefoot bag = way to track target even if they turn invisible after the marker is attached.
If you want added bonus fun, throw Light on the flour or use some alchemically derived phosphorescent dust.
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Flour really only works to find their footprints in a small area...
Now for Marker Dye IMC I would allow it to work for a round or so, at least until the invisible creature used a move action to wipe it off/rub it into the fabric of its clothes or its fur/skin. I mean most liquids don't immediately soak into fabrics, especially a well oiled cloak or jacket, leather armor, etc.
This way its not an overly effective cheapo alchemical foil to invisibility. And it would only pinpoint the creatures square, it would not negate the 50% miss chance from concealment like Faerie Fire or Glitterdust.
--Vrock, Paper, Scissor
I still think that if a creature appeared and then disappeared (our party had a spot of trouble with imps once) the dye would disappear along with the creature, just as a person's clothing becomes invisible with him.
Usually, yes. When you turn invisible, everything you have with you turns invisible along with you. Stuff that comes after is not affected. That means you must hit the invisible one after turning invisible, and if they can repeat the invisibility, they can make extra stuff disappear, too (but they do waste an action, and maybe a use of their ability)
But you could always rule that some materials (should be magical in nature, including alchemical material) will not turn invisible along with the victim, much like glitterdust.
But this does make me wonder about Abraham's arrow example. Maybe you could still see the arrow that just hit the creature.
The problem is the HP/damage system the game uses. It's abstract. It's possible that a "hit" (i.e. you make your attack roll and successfully deal damage) wasn't a hit, after all, the guy managed to dodge in the last second (and got winded, reducing his HP).
Even if you "hit", it might just be a graze and the arrow won't stick to the guy.
It all depends on how you define HP and damage, and come to terms with the fact that high-level characters manage to survive many, many hits. A common definition is that HP makes you avoid injury as much as it lets you endure it - turn serious hits into grazes or near misses.
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One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).Objects are not creatures.
You can't just throw dust or sand or flour and break invis. The powder in the APG can reveal the location for a single round, however.
Yes you can, at least until they either cast a level 0 spell (prestidigitation to clean their clothing) or take an action to brush it all off.
So, in the APG, they do not give how long the invisible thing is visible for. They just say "momentarily", while the rules in the core book state that it lasts until the flour (or powder in the APG case) blows off or falls off. But I would also as a GM allow the invisible person to brush or shake it off(standard action).
Also, the powder in the APG could be "Chalk, flour, and similar materials". So, per the APG, you could "throw dust or sand or flour and break invis", at least for a moment.
can someone point out anywhere in the rules it states you cant use something like flower to pinpoint an invisible foe? weather i put it on the floor to find footprints or throw it in the air to cover said invisible foe to be seen.
i really want to see some rules reference that prevents this
can someone point out anywhere in the rules it states you cant use something like flower to pinpoint an invisible foe? weather i put it on the floor to find footprints or throw it in the air to cover said invisible foe to be seen.
Okay: people have mentioned the powder in the APG, which works thusly:
Throwing a bag of powder into a square is an attack against AC 5, and momentarily reveals if there is an invisible creature there. A much more effective method is to spread powder on a surface (which takes 1 full round) and look for footprints.
While there is nothing specific in the rules that notes this, "powder" is listed in the regular gear section, not in special substances, so this isn't some special invisibility seeking powder, it's just anything powdery, like crushed talc. It would be reasonable to say chalk dust or flour would work similarly.
Note the word "momentarily" is not defined mechanically. But it does suggest that powder cannot be permanently used to pinpoint the location of a creature. (A reasonable call would be (completely off the top of my head) that the powder works until the invisible creature takes a move action to either move more than five feet (it falls off or merges with the invisible creature as it settles into its being) or brush it off.)
So no, there is definitely NOT a rule that says you flat out CANNOT use flour/powder/etc. to pinpoint an invisible creature--you can, but it's not permanently effective.
Also note that using powder to pinpoint an invisible creature's location or footprints does NOT negate the creature's concealment or end the target's invisibility in any other way (there are no rules to that effect). Just because you know what square the creature is standing in because that's where the footprints end, or there's a vague coating of dust floating in the middle of the room, doesn't mean you can fully see it or the objects/weapons they are holding. Flour/powder/etc. is not a "cure invisibility" spell. It's a simple, clever trick to help combat an invisible opponent but is only so useful.
First off, my experience is that once the PCs are aware of the prescence of an invisible foe, and have time to start getting creative pinpointing it (as in, they are not in melee with its allies), its chances of escaping are slim anyway. So if they actually went to the trouble of having easily-broken bags of flour (or whatever) not only with them, but accessible at a moment's notice, AND can convince me they didn't break when the invisible foe's fireball engulfed them, well, I'd rule something like this:
1) If they hit an invisible creature with flour, the flour stays visible and renders the foe visible by proxy. However, the foe can shake/brush it off, or cover it with an invisible part of clothing, as a move action. However this requires a direct hit -- it's a ranged touch attack with appropriate miss chance. That is, I'd treat it as a splash weapon with the splash/indirect damage being "location momentarily revealed" and direct damage is "covered in flour". Throwing a bag of flour is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
2) If they simply grabbed a handful of flour, they could throw it into an adjacent square as a melee touch attack that provokes attacks of opportunity; a hit produces same results as above
3) I'd even allow making a 15' cone attack as a full-round action, using a bucket of flour held in off hand and a big scoop, IF they plausibly had everything at hand (tall order).
I can't see any of this being more effective than the ranger speed-tracking, the rogue listening, the monk and the barbarian stretching a rope between them at waist-height and running around, the paladin detecting evil, the sorcerer detecting magic, anyone throwing tanglefoot bags or alchemist's fire - on a direct hit the foe will be entangled or catch fire and burn like a torch for a round, and light can never be invisible...
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can someone point out anywhere in the rules it states you cant use something like flower to pinpoint an invisible foe? weather i put it on the floor to find footprints or throw it in the air to cover said invisible foe to be seen.
The best you can find is here in the Core under invisibility, but it is fairly vague:
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).
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Alright, so there seems to be a consensus on revealing invisible creatures: need a powder of some kind, thrown as a Ranged Touch Attack, and it needs to score a direct hit (need to already know the square somehow and overcome the 50% miss chance). If successful, this reveals the location of the creature (but does not negate the concealment/miss chance), but the powder can be removed as a move action.
What about squares? How would one go about trying to reveal/track/identify if a creature is in a square or moving about? How many squares can "one dose of powder" (whatever that is) mark? I would guess a single 5-foot square (beyond a certain point, having more powder does nothing - you have to spread it around. which means multiple actions).
What about Water? If I'm in a closed room (say basement, single room, stairs out, no drain on the floor). How much water do I need to put down per square before:
I get a bonus on my perception check to pinpoint the creature's square?
I automatically know what square the creature is in?
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Invisibility spell states:
"certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle"
create water is a 0 level spell that creates 2 gallons of water per level. what kind of puddle is that going to create? how far will this spread?
generally I would agree with KaeYoss. invisibility seems to make everything on a person invisible. If its coated after that it becomes visible until it is covered or cleaned.
i would also say you could only pinpoint a person so exposed. i would imagine they are unlikely to be fully revealed and would still have a 50% miss chance.
Alright, so there seems to be a consensus on revealing invisible creatures: need a powder of some kind, thrown as a Ranged Touch Attack, and it needs to score a direct hit (need to already know the square somehow and overcome the 50% miss chance).
It's not a "consensus," it's an official rule provided by the Advanced Player's Guide in the equipment section under "powder." I quoted it a few posts above. :)
You need to hit the square, not the target, per the powder description, vs AC 5. Of course, if you guess at the wrong square, you just get a square full of powder.
You can also take a full action to fill 1 square with powder to make footprints show up, per the APG.
If successful, this reveals the location of the creature (but does not negate the concealment/miss chance)
Yes, "momentarily" to quote the rule.
but the powder can be removed as a move action.
That was the suggested house rule. :)
What about squares? How would one go about trying to reveal/track/identify if a creature is in a square or moving about? How many squares can "one dose of powder" (whatever that is) mark? I would guess a single 5-foot square (beyond a certain point, having more powder does nothing - you have to spread it around. which means multiple actions).
Per the APG, 1 bag of powder affects 1 five foot square.
What about Water? If I'm in a closed room (say basement, single room, stairs out, no drain on the floor). How much water do I need to put down per square before:
I get a bonus on my perception check to pinpoint the creature's square?
I automatically know what square the creature is in?
That's a good question! I would say that depends a LOT on the circumstances, and thus best left to the GM. My thoughts for general purposes:
In a dusty room, a pint of water could cover a square adequately enough to wet the dust/rubble and thus create footprints, which I think otherwise would then work like powder.
Or if the target gets wet in a dry room, he would LEAVE footprints.
Otherwise it depends on the type of surface and how many squares are wet--a whole lot of people splashing around in puddles during combat may not be helpful at all.