Well, you're just Combat Expertise away from Whirlwind Attack - and you can throw in Lunge if you get a third feat (take some levels of fighter?). I can see a Jann using Invisibility and their flight speed to plop down in the middle of a formation of opponents at the start of a fight. Meat grinder goodness. If you have the room, use Change Size on yourself first for a total of 15' range.
Lunge + Change Size + combat reflexes is also a good combination. Cram Power Attack in there, too, when you get the chance, and use a two-handed weapon; and/or Stand Still, if you prefer battlefield manipulation.
A STRICT READING OF THE MONSTER PC GUIDELINES WOULD GET YOU THE FOLLOWING:
A janni can join play as early as 4th level (with no class levels) and by the time the party got to 10th-level, the janni would have 6 racial hit dice and 8 class levels. After that, he gains one level for every level his party gains, as normal. You would start with the gear of a 10th-level adventurer, like your comrades.
Your janni would forever be 2 class levels behind the rest of the party, but would have 6 racial hit dice (monstrous humanoid "levels" to be precise) to make up for it.
His racial traits would look something like this:
- +6 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, and +2 Charisma.
- Type Outsider (native)
- Size Medium.
- Speed 30 ft., Fly 20 ft. (perfect)
- You gain Improved Initiative as a racial bonus feat.
- +1 natural armor bonus to AC.
- Has darkvision 60 ft.
- Possesses resist fire 10.
- Gains the change size, elemental endurance, and telepathy (100 ft.) racial abilities along with the janni's list of spell-like abilities (at CL 8th).
- Languages Common. Bonus languages include all elemental and outsider languages.
As an outsider you are automatically proficient in all simple and martial weapons as well as medium armor, light armor, and shields regardless of what class levels you take.
You would also get all the benefits of having 6 "levels" of outsider such as general feats, hit points, base saves, base attack, skill ranks, etc. Treat the combination of racial hit dice and class levels just as you would multiclassing between two classes.
EDIT: You jump into a 4th-level group as a janni with no class levels. Then you gain 6 levels for the next 4 levels that your party gains. After that you all gain levels on a 1 for 1 basis. I've included a table below:
Racial HD/Class Levels; Normal Party Members Class Levels
--------; 01
--------; 02
--------; 03
06/00; 04
06/01; 05
06/02; 06
06/04; 07
06/05; 08
06/06; 09
06/08; 10
06/09; 11
06/10; 12
06/11; 13
06/12; 14
06/13; 15
06/14; 16
06/15; 17
06/16; 18
06/17; 19
06/18; 20
I hope that helps. :D
I just realized that I forgot Spring Attack. I swear I thought I saw it in the list of Janni feats, but it isn't there. So you'll need to pick that up, too.
My only question now is if i should leave myself with a one handed scimitar (as the book has him listed with) and a composite bow, or go two handed falchion or something and try and bring the pain. Power attack would be nice to have after the initial whirlwind, so once i drop a guy i can start swinging a 12/7/2 full attack on someone with a few points dropped to increase damage.
Any suggestions?
I think a two-handed weapon is a good bet; falchion has nice flavour, and the reliable 2d4 damage and the nice crits don't hurt. I mostly advocate a 2-handed weapon (or a scimitar in 2 hands is okay, too) if you use Power Attack; if you don't for some reason, then you may be better off with a scimitar and a shield.
There is, also, the possibility of two weapon fighting, but im not sure if that would be particularly effective.
It's a little late in the game to get into TWF. You'd have to wield smaller weapons and lose some power attack and strength damage (by not using a 2-handed grip), and suffer a penalty to hit in order to gain one extra attack. I don't think it's really worth it. I think Whirlwind Attack is good enough when dealing with 2 or more creatures; you aren't as specialized against single opponents, but teams usually do well against those anyway, so you don't have to shine so much. A decent Str, Power Attack and a 2-handed weapon should be enough to keep you useful in those situations.
My head hurts x.X. Alright, so, if everyone is starting at 10th level, and i come in as a jann, I would have 8 in fighter and 4 in...like, genie, or something. Right? And, do i use the basic starting stats or do i purchase them then add the racial things? and what about BaB for the jann levels? I apologize for rapid fire questions, but i thought i had it figured out, and now i dont x.x.
Thanks for the help, and if you dont mind, would you mind throwing up how many feats(given and chosen), what my base saves, bab, and so on would be? If you dont, no worries, im lookin up on it.
I was actually considering throwing that info up already just for thoroughness' sake.
• d10 Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
• Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
• Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
• Darkvision 60 feet.
• Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
• Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Native Subtype: This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
NOTE THAT THE FOLLOWING NUMBERS ARE JUST FOR YOUR RACIAL HIT DICE! CLASS LEVELS WILL ADD TO THEM!
HP: 10 + 5d10 + (6 x Constitution modifier); Note that you will not get max hit points for your first class level.
Base Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2 (It's worth noting that a Janni's base saves are atypical for an outsider.)
Base Attack: +6 (Note that this BAB is high enough to grant you multiple attacks with manufactured weapons)
Feats: 3 (Note that your racial hit dice and class levels stack for the purposes of determining when you get your general feats, so at 10th-level, you will have 7 general feats in all. Your next feat will be when you gain your 9th-class level.
Starting Skill Ranks: 36 skill ranks + (6 x Intelligence modifier) additional skill ranks; Prior to class levels, you can have up to 6 ranks in any given skill.
Racial "Class" Skills: Appraise*, Bluff, Craft, Fly*, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Ride*, Sense Motive, Spellcraft*, and Stealth
* Not normally an outsider skill, but Janni treat them as class skills anyways as part of the free four class skills that all outsiders get.
I highly recommend looking up the multiclassing rules on pages 30 and 31 of the Core rulebook. Familiarizing yourself with your creature type (outsider) and the Monsters as PC rules on page 309 and 314 of the Bestiary, respectively, is also a good idea.
By the way, so you guys dont think im going crazy, the big curveball my DM threw at us was that we unleashed a tarrasque on the world.
Pfft. Fly around it and pelt it to death from afar the big T is a joke for experienced adventurers. Even if things get really bad, you can plane shift out of danger as a spell-like ability.
If you tell me what class levels you want for your character (as well as most everything else), I can put together a basic character sheet for you.
I'll be operating on a strict reading of the Monsters as PCs guidelines though. Your GM may make adjustments to better balance your character with the rest of the party.
Also, I listed the modifiers above. You assign your base ability scores and then add the modifiers. For example, say you are allowed 25 point buy.
You assign it so you have the following:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
After the racial mods, it would look like this:
Str 20, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 12
Then you add in 1 point for every four hit dice/class levels you posses. In a 10th-level party, you have a character level of 14, so you get 3 bonus points to add where you see fit. Let's put them into Strength for now:
Str 23, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 12
Then you add your gear. You have 62,000gp worth of starting funds. Let's assume you got yourself a belt of physical might +4 in order to shore up you Dexterity and Constitution.
Your final scores would be:
Str 23, Dex 22, Con 20, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 12
Does that help?
Yes. and thanks a ton for helping me with this, man. Im going to go full 8 into fighter, and im not yet sure what to choose in terms of character view. I think of genies as hard to hit, quick-moving fighters, but if you have any suggestions i would love to hear them, man. and i was thinking of choosing the standard buy 15 points, since im very fearful of being overpowered. So i went with 14, 14, 14, 12, 9, 9
Tell me what kind of fighting style and primary weapon you want and I'll stat out a sample Janni fighter for you (also, what books you are allowed to use). From there it should be easy to change out feats, skills, etc. to suit.
All I ask in return is your promise that you will better learn these rules.
Ravingdork, that's brilliant, kudos to you: using your powers for good.
Are you implying that I was ever anything but good? *makes sad face with a tear*
"sigh"
It amazes me that Pathfinder made the monster to PC rules more complicated than Savage Species. In a tenth level party you should NOT have more than 10 hit dice. You gain a skill, feat and stat point advantage. You also have crazy stat bonus' starting out. You should do the right thing and only have 4 class levels plus your 6 racial hit dice. Yes, it would make you a weaker caster, but 6 hit dice worth of outsider is better than monk, so you are already an excellent combatant. Focus on that.
If you go with the ridiculous rules as written you will out power the other PC's. Unless you're secretly going to be taking them all on I advise against this. 6 levels in fighter (sans feats, but with super saves/skills) is a fair trade for 6 class levels.
It really is up to your DM, but you have the power to take the initiative and put yourself on par wig your friends.
Go with the Gawds young one.
"sigh"
It amazes me that Pathfinder made the monster to PC rules more complicated than Savage Species. In a tenth level party you should NOT have more than 10 hit dice. You gain a skill, feat and stat point advantage. You also have crazy stat bonus' starting out. You should do the right thing and only have 4 class levels plus your 6 racial hit dice. Yes, it would make you a weaker caster, but 6 hit dice worth of outsider is better than monk, so you are already an excellent combatant. Focus on that.
If you go with the ridiculous rules as written you will out power the other PC's. Unless you're secretly going to be taking them all on I advise against this. 6 levels in fighter (sans feats, but with super saves/skills) is a fair trade for 6 class levels.
It really is up to your DM, but you have the power to take the initiative and put yourself on par wig your friends.
Go with the Gawds young one.
That's why they are called guidelines. They aren't fully developed and are essentially an afterthought from the game designers.
Some races work terrifically when following these rules (even if they end up with a higher character level). Others on the other hand, are hopelessly broken or weak.
It's a million miles better than the ECL system, however, which NEVER put out a balanced character.
Agreed, from current experience DMing PF Rules Savage Tide. The monster rules as they apply to the Sahuagain Alchemist PC (2hd, Alch7) and the Storm Giant PC (12hd) in a level 8 party (using a Savage Species breakdown for leveling the Storm Giant) is working pretty much perfectly. The Storm Giant is a great example of when the system "works". She is petty much equal to a fighter of level 8. Her slight skill point and fort save advantages are mitigated by her size and the issues it brings.
And that is my biggest beef with monster PCs. Abide by the rules for them....all of them. Including the rules that are often ignored, or simple common sense unless your world's physics are wildly different. Even at level 8 (12 out of 19 HD) our immature Storm Giant weighs 3500 pounds. Few second story floors can support her. She 13 feet tall, she can barely fit inside medium structures, and even then she is crawling on hands and knees. She eats 8 times what a human would, which means she pays 8 times as much for her meals.
And finally, I am respecting the line in the Monsters As PCs section where it says "The DM should pay attention and make adjustments if a character becomes too weak or strong".
Running Monster PCs is easy, once you get your Yoda on and "unlearn what you have learned". The big issue being, in an age of RPGs where "RAW IS THE RULE, the PF monster rules are guidelines, nothing more or less.
And finally, I am respecting the line in the Monsters As PCs section where it says "The DM should pay attention and make adjustments if a character becomes too weak or strong".
Running Monster PCs is easy, once you get your Yoda on and "unlearn what you have learned". The big issue being, in an age of RPGs where "RAW IS THE RULE, the PF monster rules are guidelines, nothing more or less.
This is why the rules really rock. In v3.5's ECL system, if the monster didn't work out (as it almost never did) then you were stuck with what you got, no ifs, and, or buts.
This system is much better because it is much more free form. With somethign as complex as monsters, it HAS to be free form. Trying to fit an arbitrary ECL onto every monster simply never worked.
I been looking at the Ogre Mage, right now I am playing a 10th level paladin, and lets say at lvl 12 he dies. If I wanted to bring an ogre mage at lvl 12. What would I be looking at for lvls? from what I read in the rules, I would have 8 Outsider HD, and 5 class levels. Is this correct?
I been looking at the Ogre Mage, right now I am playing a 10th level paladin, and lets say at lvl 12 he dies. If I wanted to bring an ogre mage at lvl 12. What would I be looking at for lvls? from what I read in the rules, I would have 8 Outsider HD, and 5 class levels. Is this correct?
Oni HD/Class Levels; Party's Class Levels
8/0; 88/1; 9
8/2; 10
8/4; 11
8/5; 12
8/6; 13
8/8; 14
8/9; 15
8/10; 16
8/12; 17
8/13; 18
8/14; 19
8/16; 20
Yes, you are correct.
If you play an ogre Mage then you should only give yourself 4 class levels at most. Heck the ability score bonus' and abilities alone are strong enough to warrant being down 2 more class levels. You have fast healing for crying out loud. That's really good and gives you a character that's much more powerful than what you're currently playing.
Stupid player monster rules are stupid.
If you play an ogre Mage then you should only give yourself 4 class levels at most. Heck the ability score bonus' and abilities alone are strong enough to warrant being down 2 more class levels. You have fast healing for crying out loud. That's really good and gives you a character that's much more powerful than what you're currently playing.
Stupid player monster rules are stupid.
What are you talking about? Ogre mage is one of the weakest monster races out there!
The sytem only really breaks when you put a monster with racial spellcasting, dragons being a nice exception, and add spellcating levels to them.
Also theres a problem with Abilities that are suposed to advanced with class levels like Pixie's and Rakshasa's SR.
Humbly,
Yawar
PSD: Sorry, for the threadjack.
Neither critter lists an advancement, so their SR values should be considered fixed- at least from the point of a PC taking them. (that'd be the most balanced way to handle it, imo).
Spell casting is as simple as "thou shalt have no more spell casting levels than your effective PC level".
where effective PC level is the "level" you are supposed to be.
(aka if you are supposed to be a 10th level equivalent, then you can't be higher than 10 spell caster level).
Brings most of the problems back into proper alignment.
-S
Neither critter lists an advancement, so their SR values should be considered fixed- at least from the point of a PC taking them. (that'd be the most balanced way to handle it, imo).
Spell casting is as simple as "thou shalt have no more spell casting levels than your effective PC level".
where effective PC level is the "level" you are supposed to be.
(aka if you are supposed to be a 10th level equivalent, then you can't be higher than 10 spell caster level).Brings most of the problems back into proper alignment.
-S
I agree that the SR and other abilities (such as caster level for spell-like abilities) would be static.
What are you talking about? Ogre mage is one of the weakest monster races out there!If you play an ogre Mage then you should only give yourself 4 class levels at most. Heck the ability score bonus' and abilities alone are strong enough to warrant being down 2 more class levels. You have fast healing for crying out loud. That's really good and gives you a character that's much more powerful than what you're currently playing.
Stupid player monster rules are stupid.
"blink"
+5 natural armor, regeneration 5, +8 base attack, 8d10 hit points, constant flight, invisibility at will and don't even get me started on the stat adjustments. Oh yeah, and Large! What are you comparing this too, a great wyrm red dragon???
Many monsters are just as strong, if not stronger than PC classes. Really, it's all I'm trying to get at.
What are you talking about? Ogre mage is one of the weakest monster races out there!If you play an ogre Mage then you should only give yourself 4 class levels at most. Heck the ability score bonus' and abilities alone are strong enough to warrant being down 2 more class levels. You have fast healing for crying out loud. That's really good and gives you a character that's much more powerful than what you're currently playing.
Stupid player monster rules are stupid.
"blink"
+5 natural armor, regeneration 5, +8 base attack, 8d10 hit points, constant flight, invisibility at will and don't even get me started on the stat adjustments. Oh yeah, and Large! What are you comparing this too, a great wyrm red dragon???
Many monsters are just as strong, if not stronger than PC classes. Really, it's all I'm trying to get at.
Never mind. You're right.
Though I don't think that the base stats or invisibility are the problem (it's not greater invisibility) much of the other stuff (regeneration, spell resistance, etc.) is.
Fortunately, the book specifically says the GM should keep a close eye and make adjustments on such characters for exactly this reason.
One last question so i can explain it to him: how did you get those racial modifiers? ive looked over the standard bestiary and i cant find it.
The game designers told me how to do it. All monsters in the Bestiary (that don't have class levels) have base ability scores of 10s and 11s.
Therefore, you can subtract 10 from all of a creature's even ability scores and 11 from all of its odd ability scores to find out its racial ability modifiers.
The rest is just from looking at its statblock and the creature type entries in the back of the book. It was plainly evident that a Janni is a native outsider with 6 HD, so determining its base stats was easy. From that, we can determine your base attack bonus, base saves, hit points, and other basic statistics. The last thing (and the easiest to mess up on) are the racial abilities and traits. Much of this is deduced from the creature statblock itself and can include things like:
- additional class skills outside of the type's normal list
- armor, shield, and weapon proficiencies from race
- communicative abilities (such as telepathy)
- damage reduction
- energy resistance
- fast healing
- immunities
- movement modes
- natural armor
- natural attacks
- natural spellcasting ability
- racial bonus feats (denoted with a tiny "B")
- regeneration
- senses (blindsense, blindsight, darkvision, lowlight vision, scent, etc.)
- special attacks (breath weapons, grab, pounce, rake, rays, etc.)
- special qualities (elemental endurance, flight, similar misc. abilities)
- spell-like abilities
- spell resistance
- vulnerabilities
Please note that this is not an exhaustive list.
Most of the time, it is a pretty straightforward affair. Take the gnoll, for example:
It has the following:
- +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
- Type Humanoid (gnoll)
- Size Medium.
- Speed 30 ft.
- +1 natural armor bonus to AC.
- Has darkvision 60 ft.
- Languages Gnoll. Bonus languages unknown (likely none).
Because it has the humanoid (gnoll) type and has 2 racial hit dice, we can calculate that its base stats are as follows:
HD 2d8 (before constitution mod); first HD is maxed, so more like 8 + 1d8
BAB +1
Saves +3 Fort, +0 Ref/Will (humanoids normally favor Reflex rather than Fortitude, but Gnolls are an exception)
Base skill ranks 2 per HD for 4 ranks (before intelligence mod) with a max of 2 ranks in any one skill
Racial "Class" Skills Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Profession, Ride, and Survival; Some races gain additional class skills, the gnoll is NOT one of them
Because of the gear in its statblock, we also know that gnolls are racially proficient in all simple weapons, light armor, and shields. They might also be racially proficient in bows and battleaxes as its in their treasure line, but I'm willing to bet that's a copy and paste error from v3.5.
Usually, the only thing that can be tricky to determine are bonus languages.
Wow, Ravingdork, I appreciate your command of the rules (or guidelines in this case)! :)
That said, I think these guidelines are seriously broken (I guess that's why they are merely guidelines rather than rules at this stage). I certainly don't think that a Jann with 6 monstrous humanoid hit dice that is also an 8th level fighter is equivalent in power to a 10th level human fighter... Indeed, I think that the 3.5E rules on monstrous characters, although also not well-balanced, were nonetheless superior to these guidelines.
Wow, Ravingdork, I appreciate your command of the rules (or guidelines in this case)! :)
Thanks. Don't let anyone else around here hear you say that though. They all think I'm crazy.
Indeed, I think that the 3.5E rules on monstrous characters, although also not well-balanced, were nonetheless superior to these guidelines.
The Monsters as PCs guidelines gives the GM the freedom and flexibility needed to keep balance in his games. The ECL system, on the other hand, was far too rigid and gave players an excuse to bring brokenly good/bad races into the game under the disguise of false balance that was, ultimately, the arbitrary LA.
In Pathfinder, a player can play ANYTHING they want, and it is left to the GM and his players to balance it as they see fit (and they were even given some halfway decent guidelines to start with). In the ECL system, however, if there is no LA attached to the creature IT'S TOTALLY OFF LIMITS to players. Even for the creatures that you COULD play, the ECL system proved to be WAY off base more often than not.
Sorry, but Pathfinder is better. ECL was crap.
Sorry, but Pathfinder is better. ECL was crap.
You wouldn't be saying that if you played in my groups. We figured out early on that Savage Species was a flawed product (only took one session with an anthropomorphic baleen whale to show that) and turned it into guidelines. The best thing to come out of that book (a system I use to this day) was the Acid Test.
The Acid Test is actually simpler than the guidelines that Paizo presents (though it is a decent system that they offer), it works as follows.
Take the monster as is, HD and all, and compare it to a standard race character of equal similar class level (to the HD of the monster). Since the discussion is about a Janni we'll start there.
Janni have 6 HD, +6 base attack and a size changing power. Very similar to a barbarian. However, the janni also has constant flight, planeshift and ethereal jaunt. Very strong movement powers that don't translate well when compared to standard race/classes. It seems the janni majors in combatant and minors (very minors) in gish. With a +6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha, +1 Natural Armor and Improved Initiative as a bonus feat it looks like the janni is more in line with a bow wielding ranger who has access to flight. Celestial Armor cost over 22,000 (about all of a 7th level characters wealth), winged boots cost 16,000 (all of a 6th level characters wealth). Again, this doesn't translate very well. A janni will have the same wealth as a character of the same effective level. A janni is much more powerful than a 6th level anything! So let's bring it in line. The bonus' to Str and Dex put its attack bonus' at +9/+8. However, the +2 Con doesn't cover a three level gap hp-wise. SO what is preferable now? A janni with 6 HD or an 8th level ranger with a bow? How about a janni or a wizard? Sorcerer? Paladin? The loss of iterative attacks is minor, those attacks rarely matter anyways. The real strength of the janni is flight at will. If you take that away I'd say it's comparable to a 6th level barbarian or ranger. It means easy escape, you're difficult to hurt, and ranged combat is a no brainer since you can fight in 3D.
However, when you compare a janni with 2 levels in anything to a 10th level character of ANY class the Pathfinder guidelines start to make more sense. 10th level is a big deal where before it wasn't. I'd say a 3rd level [class] janni is a little closer to a tenth level anything since it soon puts you at a 1 for one ratio on class+HD compared to other characters.
Basically you give up higher level abilities for, in this case anyways, really cool powers at a lower level. As has been seen throughout the ages this is not balanced. No one will NOT want to play a janni at low level if there is no cost and NO ONE will want to play a janni at higher levels if it means losing out on those nifty higher level abilities. The art is in the balancing. I say put the janni 8 levels behind to start with. Gain an extra level at 10th and another extra at 15th. The janni player is only 6 levels behind, but has always had supercool abilities from the start.
This is also in line with how Paizo handled the Githyanki back when they published Dragon Magazine. So really, it's always kind of been this way. We just didn't put it all into words.
I am really glad this thread started up.
Wow, Ravingdork, I appreciate your command of the rules (or guidelines in this case)! :)Thanks. Don't let anyone else around here hear you say that though. They all think I'm crazy.
Indeed, I think that the 3.5E rules on monstrous characters, although also not well-balanced, were nonetheless superior to these guidelines.
The Monsters as PCs guidelines gives the GM the freedom and flexibility needed to keep balance in his games. The ECL system, on the other hand, was far too rigid and gave players an excuse to bring brokenly good/bad races into the game under the disguise of false balance that was, ultimately, the arbitrary LA.
In Pathfinder, a player can play ANYTHING they want, and it is left to the GM and his players to balance it as they see fit (and they were even given some halfway decent guidelines to start with). In the ECL system, however, if there is no LA attached to the creature IT'S TOTALLY OFF LIMITS to players. Even for the creatures that you COULD play, the ECL system proved to be WAY off base more often than not.
Sorry, but Pathfinder is better. ECL was crap.
I will certainly agree that ECL was flawed for two primary reasons, one unit-based and one systemic. The unit-based problem was that LAs were simply badly assigned in some (well, quite a few) cases - the solution Pathfinder could have taken was to reassign them.
The systemic problem was that the value of the abilities that made up the LA declined relatively as characters gained more levels. This could potentially be solved by decreasing the LA as characters advance in levels.
You clearly know the Pathfinder guidelines well, but come on, don't tell me they are better balanced than the ECL/LA system. The character you helped create in this thread is himself proof of that. Yes, the GMs and players can balance it as they see fit in Pathfinder (which is not much of a rule - it is obvious - they can do that with ECL/LA systems too), but the guidelines themselves are pretty useless at helping out.
I should add a caveat that I have not played a monstrous character in Pathfinder yet, but I have done so in D&D 3.5E, so I speak from a theoretical position only, when it comes to Pathfinder in this regard.
*sighs*
I've actually played alongside a Pathfinder Janni gish from 10th to 18th level. Therefore, I have a VERY good idea of the balance issues that arise.
You might be surprised to hear that there were less far less issues with the janni character then there were with any of the other normal characters in the party (like my human rogue/wizard/arcane trickster who readily destroyed everything with her metamagic rods, spells, and sneak attack).
I promise you, it looks horrifically powerful on paper, but isn't nearly all that bad in play.