In the case of a whip does a player who has the weapon finesse feat apply his dex bonus to his CMB instead of his strength?
Also when dealing subdue damage with the whip, if the player can gain a back-stab on his target, is the back-stab damage considered lethal or nonlethal?
In the case of a whip does a player who has the weapon finesse feat apply his dex bonus to his CMB instead of his strength?
Also when dealing subdue damage with the whip, if the player can gain a back-stab on his target, is the back-stab damage considered lethal or nonlethal?
No you do not, unless you have taken the feat Agile Maneuvers, which adds your Dexterity modifier to your BAB in place of your strength on CMB attack rolls.
As for the second one, I think backstab/sneak-attack is always lethal damage.
EDIT: Just for clarity, there are two feats I am thinking you want. The first is Weapon Finesse. It allows you to attack with your Dex modifier when using specific weapons. The second is Agile Maneuvers. It does the same as WF, but with CMB rolls.
In the case of a whip does a player who has the weapon finesse feat apply his dex bonus to his CMB instead of his strength?
I would say yes.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects . These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Presumably weapon finesse is effectively a bonus to your attack, and it is a feat.
Also when dealing subdue damage with the whip, if the player can gain a back-stab on his target, is the back-stab damage considered lethal or nonlethal?
Backstab? I spy a 2e player...
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
So the damage is non lethal. No whip sneak attacking the undead.
In the case of a whip does a player who has the weapon finesse feat apply his dex bonus to his CMB instead of his strength?I would say yes.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects . These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Presumably weapon finesse is effectively a bonus to your attack, and it is a feat.
Also when dealing subdue damage with the whip, if the player can gain a back-stab on his target, is the back-stab damage considered lethal or nonlethal?Tanks for the quick input i was thinking the same thing. 2E LoL i can remember when expert rules first came out.
Backstab? I spy a 2e player...With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
So the damage is non lethal. No whip sneak attacking the undead.
Wolf, he's asking about replacing the modifier in the calculation of CMB, which is calculated with Str. He needs the feat Agile Maneuvers to recalculate using Dex.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects . These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
The CMB, without Agile Maneuvers, would still be calculated with Str. The part you highlighted refers to any buffs the character would be under, like Bardic music, or Enlarge person, or a masterwork weapon, etc.
Here was James Jacobs' take on weapon finesse and using DEX for combat maneuvers. The bonus would add as a bonus to the roll I believe.
Here was James Jacobs' take on weapon finesse and using DEX for combat maneuvers. The bonus would add as a bonus to the roll I believe.
Dang, nice webforum-fu.
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I can see how you can read the RAW that way, Kilbourne.
That said, I think JJ`s take on it is the best way to play for now.
AFAIK, Maneuver checks are meant to be the exact same as any other attack roll EXCEPT SIZE MOD IS REVERSED.
(For MANY characters, their CMB is identical to a generic melee attack roll, because -0 is still 0)
From that perspective, if you are using a Finesse weapon to deliver a Maneuver you should use DEX instead of STR.
(Paizo still has not clearly answered whether unarmed strikes are used to deliver non-weapon trips, though JJ`s imager/description of making a Trip attempt conforms to Unarmed Strikes)
Likewise, if you can make Ranged Maneuvers (via a weapon like a Bola, or via special Archer abilities) you should also use DEX instead of STR since it is a Ranged attack.
Unofortunately, CMB/CMD is presented in a verbose and potentially confusing way. Having a simple `maneuver modifier` to attack rolls (which would be 0 for medium characters), and a similar modifier to Touch AC which accounted for BAB, STR, and inverting the Size Mod, would have had alot less opportunities for confusion.
After thinking it over i have decided I'm going to allow it in my game, for the fact that i can see a dexterous character using a whip having as much of a chance to trip as a muscle bound oaf. Assuming he has one of the limited weapons that allow both the combat maneuver as well as being a finesse weapon.