I just received my latest shipment from paizo. Initially, I was very happy about it, but then I opened it. The battlemat I ordered was bent twice and twisted in the worst possible attempt to fit it into the (much too small) box it was sent in. A small, square box, not the cardboard tube that is commonly used for posters or ... what a surprise... battlemats.
I unpacked it and behold: your method of shipping actually managed to make the battlemat unusable for play: Photo here.
Needless to say, I don't need a broken battlemat - how shall I proceed?
Sending it back will mean that only reimbursement of the costs of the two shipments is already more than half of the new price of the mat. But then again, the mat as is is clearly broken and unfit for its intended purpose.
Edit: Surfing on your site, I noticed these posts here. It seems that sending these mats inappropriately is a systematic failure on your part, and not just a single case of someone being too tired to think in the morning...cardboard tubes are cheap, guys. Seriously, why make your customers angry and disappointed when the solution is so simple.
While you're waiting for an official reply from Paizo, FWIW I believe that battlemats are vinyl and vinyl warps when it's heated but can unwarp if treated the same way.
If you live in a warm area, I'd suggest putting it out in the sun spread out on something like a backyard table. If it's not that hot where you live, shutting it inside a hot car unrolled and draped over the seats could work too.
Barring that, as mentioned in the other thread, spreading it out indoors on a table and hitting it with a blowdryer is tedious but could work.
I do agree however that a poster tube would be the way to go.
Malaclypse,
The great thing about the vinyl that those companies use is its resilience. After being smashed into a box that's also too small for them and crammed with books and board games, those mats arrive to us in much the same condition. But after a few days of sitting in our warehouse, they spring back to normal.
Over the years we've sold tons of these mats and we've always shipped them in the same manner, folded into a box. The reason for this is really two fold. First, the mats are resilient enough to come out of their folded state without suffering any ill effects. And second, by allowing them to be shipped in this manner we are able to keep the shipping and handling costs low. If we were to make them ship separately, as in a tube, the s/h on them would increase dramatically.
I know that there are a few different threads on paizo.com where people have cited that their battle mats have arrived in unusable condition because of how they were packed for shipping and some of them may have a valid argument. However, the percentage of "damaged" mats is frighteningly low compared to the number that we have shipped and that's really the reason we haven't ever changed our s/h method.
In the interest of being a great web store that listens to their customers, I'd be curious how you guys feel about this topic. Would you rather have the ability to combine your mat with other products or would you always want them to ship separately (in a tube)? And unfortunately there's no in between choice here either. We don't have the code to allow it.
So, just to be clear, that would mean that mat markers or dice or whatever and a battle mat would be two separate shipments and two separate s/h charges (and for the international customers like you that is a lot of money). Let us know what you think!
The great thing about the vinyl that those companies use is its resilience. After being smashed into a box that's also too small for them and crammed with books and board games, those mats arrive to us in much the same condition. But after a few days of sitting in our warehouse, they spring back to normal.
I know that there are a few different threads on paizo.com where people have cited that their battle mats have arrived in unusable condition because of how they were packed for shipping and some of them may have a valid argument. However, the percentage of "damaged" mats is frighteningly low compared to the number that we have shipped and that's really the reason we haven't ever changed our s/h method.
So you broke some other mats, but mine will be 'magically' ok if I just wait until it's too late to cancel the CC charge? Did I understand that correctly?
So, just to be clear, that would mean that mat markers or dice or whatever and a battle mat would be two separate shipments and two separate s/h charges (and for the international customers like you that is a lot of money). Let us know what you think!
Let me rephrase that:
Do you want us to break your product for shipping? [ ] yes [x] no
In the interest of being a great web store that listens to their customers, I'd be curious how you guys feel about this topic. Would you rather have the ability to combine your mat with other products or would you always want them to ship separately (in a tube)? And unfortunately there's no in between choice here either. We don't have the code to allow it.
I don't see how being a web store factors in the equation. I know I wouldn't buy from any store an item sold as new that is not in pristine condition. Whether it is a bent battlemat or a bent corner on a book or a crushed game box doesn't matter. If it is not in new condition, then it should not be sold as new.
I'd advise shipping separately, in a tube, or not shipping at all. Let the customer alone decide if the price for shipping is worth it. After all, you're already doing it (last time I checked anyway) with the Pathfinder launch poster or gaming paper (from Gaming Paper).
Lay mat on flat surface and then use a hair dryer on low to medium setting to remove creases and folds.
Just make sure to hold the dryer 4-6 inches away from the mat.
Let cool and roll it anyway you want.
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I say keep it how it is.
But for those few customers allow the option for it to be requested specifically with the knowledge shipping would increase drastically. Perhaps put it in the description, except I know most people don not read that when it comes to shipping, but you can always point to that.
It would be a notify customer service before hand or along those line for the option.
Personally I just fix items or smooth them out if I k ow they can be. If it is a book corn or so ethnic I would nitrify Pazio if there was an issue but this I'd just fix since there is a known solution.
Sean
Thanks for the tips, guys, but I'm not going to handle the mat with any not officially recommended treatments, as this would likely void any claims I have towards Paizo.
Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for an official answer on how to proceed.
I've had a couple of mats turn up like that from other retailers. I've used the "magic hairdryer" tech... and it helps but doesn't remove all the creases.
My vote would be for tubes.
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Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for an official answer on how to proceed.
Then your best bet is to email customer services, not post here....
It has been stated that the state you receive them is no different to the state they are at in the warehouse, at that point, I don't see a replacement being a valid option.
Then your best bet is to email customer services, not post here....
Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for an official answer on how to proceed.
Why? This is the customer service board of Paizo. And I had previous dealings with Paizo's customer service, mails got ignored but here, I got answers and my problem back then was solved quickly.
It has been stated that the state you receive them is no different to the state they are at in the warehouse, at that point, I don't see a replacement being a valid option.
I doubt that, but even that does not make it ok to additionally break my mat for shipping, and neither does not make it acceptable to send me a damaged product. So I'm really looking for an answer on how to proceed.
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Then your best bet is to email customer services, not post here....
Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for an official answer on how to proceed.Why? This is the customer service board of Paizo. And I had previous dealings with Paizo's customer service, mails got ignored but here, I got answers and my problem back then was solved quickly.
It has been stated that the state you receive them is no different to the state they are at in the warehouse, at that point, I don't see a replacement being a valid option.I doubt that, but even that does not make it ok to additionally break my mat for shipping, and neither does not make it acceptable to send me a damaged product. So I'm really looking for an answer on how to proceed.
Ahhh. You did get a response from the VP Store Manager.
Sean
Thanks for the tips, guys, but I'm not going to handle the mat with any not officially recommended treatments, as this would likely void any claims I have towards Paizo.Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for an official answer on how to proceed.
From what I gathered from what the VP said, if you just leave the mat out for a few days (ie. not folded up) it should spring back into shape.
I'd interpret that as instructions to leave it out lying on a table or something else flat for a few days and see if the problem fixes itself without resorting to hair dryers and such.
If that doesn't do the trick, contact them then.
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Thanks for the tips, guys, but I'm not going to handle the mat with any not officially recommended treatments, as this would likely void any claims I have towards Paizo.Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for an official answer on how to proceed.
While you may or may not want to follow the great advice that people are giving you, the only other option you have is to send it back to Paizo.
Believe it or not it is NOT broken, just bent and this is a common thing for Battlemats. As they are usually not shipped or even stored in a tube at times they are rolled up but get bent in store or something. This is both normal and expected because they are resilient as stated above by the customer service. Heating it up is the best way to remove the creases. Unless the Battlemat is ripped, the lines are rubbed off or crooked, or the Mat is not square somehow, then you have a legit beef but again not with Paizo itself but with Chessex.
BTW Chessex does not use tubes to ship their mats either... they put them in boxes too.
I prefer to get the mats and other things I order as one shipment. While I like the shipping tubes I just go and purchase them to store the mats in after I get them.
I am not sure if this will comfort you but I have bought two battle-mats in the past (from a different company) and received them in the same condition that yours came in. I am not sure how long it took but they do spring back into a perfectly flat battle-mat. I remember being pissed as well!
Since internet message boards are God's way of letting every idiot with a keyboard state their opinons on an issue, I feel that I should show my idiocy:
Perhaps the long term fix here is for Pizo to put a little blurb in the store listing for the battle mat to this effect:
"Battle mats are floded for shipping to reduce shipping and handling charges to the customer. Some flattening may be required up receipt."
This would inform and prepare any future customers, and reduce that pissed off feeling.
Malaclypse: I can't really balme you. You payed for a product, not a project. I don't expect McDonalds to hand me some a bag of ingredients and tell me to make my own Big Mac.(however, I have been to resturants with a "build your own burger" bar, and was happy. See first paragraph.) But if you don't want to fix it yourself, returning the item would be your only course of action.
Mr. Alvarez, While it is kind of reflexive to go on the defensive in these situation (even in a helpful manner!) but customer friendly busniess practices show that you should probably say something like "Well, Piazo's Returns policy is..." and then be followed with all of the informative and helpful stuff you wrote.
i have a vinyl battle mat that I've stored away crumpled up like a piece of paper. here's my solution and it works every time.
roll it up like it should have been shipped. then flatten it out and roll it up in the opposite way (if you get my meaning.) continue along this course until it's flattened again.
I still haven't heard a word on the proper procedure to return my damaged product. I would be delighted if one of Paizo's customer care people would finally answer the question which I posed in the message that started this thead.
Its nice that you want to hear opinions on how to prevent such problems in the future, and also vague assurances that everything will be fine are great, but they don't solve my problem. Which is that you sent me a defective product.
So...please?
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A sunny day and a blacktop driveway are all it takes for my battle mat to relax back out after it ends up looking like that usually after a long weekend at a convention.
That's not really a defective, it's just crumpled. Your care and feeding instructions should have told you how to get it to be flat again, I believe it's all in those. Mine came with one that describes all kinds of solutions to common problems, but I bought it several years ago so it might not be included anymore?
Paizo could put some better information in their description of the product though if it's common to ship them unrolled so people are more aware of what they're getting.
He doesn't want to fix it; he wants to return it and get his money back, preferably with free return shipping.
Malaclypse, don't know if you've sent an e-mail on this issue; this thread keeps getting bumped to the top, and CS tends to see threads with multiple posts and assume they've been dealt with and people are just chatting.
Director of Sales
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To return your combat pad, please ship it back to us via USPS Standard Mail. Please send it "Attn: Store Returns" and include a brief description of the problem. Upon receipt, your refund will credited back to either the originating card, or as store credit. Please include your preference in the brief description. You can find our address on your invoice, or on the FAQ.
Thanks,
cos
To return your combat pad, please ship it back to us via USPS Standard Mail. Please send it "Attn: Store Returns" and include a brief description of the problem. Upon receipt, your refund will credited back to either the originating card, or as store credit. Please include your preference in the brief description. You can find our address on your invoice, or on the FAQ.
Thanks,
cos
Ok, thanks, Cosmo.
Two more things:
1. What about the return shipment fees? I assume I will get a credit for your store or future product orders?
2. Is it ok if send it back in the original box it came in, or need I buy a cardboard tube? I could bend it so the stretched/bent parts are at the same spot, but I don't want to get refused a refund because of improper shipping.
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Director of Sales
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To return your combat pad, please ship it back to us via USPS Standard Mail. Please send it "Attn: Store Returns" and include a brief description of the problem. Upon receipt, your refund will credited back to either the originating card, or as store credit. Please include your preference in the brief description. You can find our address on your invoice, or on the FAQ.
Thanks,
cosOk, thanks, Cosmo.
Two more things:
1. What about the return shipment fees? I assume I will get a credit for your store or future product orders?
2. Is it ok if send it back in the original box it came in, or need I buy a cardboard tube? I could bend it so the stretched/bent parts are at the same spot, but I don't want to get refused a refund because of improper shipping.
I'll send you an email with the relevant details.
Thanks,
cos
I'll send you an email with the relevant details.
Ok, great. Thanks!
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I'll send you an email with the relevant details.Ok, great. Thanks!
Why didn't you just follow the advice you were given about returning it to it's former shape? As many have said before tat it was not broken, or did you just want to return it instead and that was all that you wanted to do?
As many have said in this thread that they have had worse in their matts yet were able to return them to their former shape easily, and yet because it was not "official" enough for you, you basically ignored us because of it? To me if it is not broken why return it?
Just saying...
Why didn't you just follow the advice you were given about returning it to it's former shape? As many have said before tat it was not broken, or did you just want to return it instead and that was all that you wanted to do?
As many have said in this thread that they have had worse in their matts yet were able to return them to their former shape easily, and yet because it was not "official" enough for you, you basically ignored us because of it? To me if it is not broken why return it?
I put it flat on a large surface, and on one quadrant I put on some heavy books. On the other I rolled it and unrolled it multiple times according to the tips above.
Nothing changed.
I doubt that it will magically return into it's natural shape.
It should have been sent like this:
_________
0________0 - yes it might have flattened, but that recovers, i have no doubt.
But it was sent like this
____
0_ /
/ /__
\____0
Now at the edges of the 'z', the materials was stretched (strongly) because it had (I guess) to be forced into the small box. The creases and damage there is not so easily recoverable, and didn't get better at all.
If you looked at the photos I linked in my first post on this thread, you can see two kinds of distortions - the regular | | ones and the one from the bent edges.
Additionally, the comments were far from unambiguous:
I've had a couple of mats turn up like that from other retailers. I've used the "magic hairdryer" tech... and it helps but doesn't remove all the creases.
I did buy a new product for the full price. If I wanted a non-mint item, I could have gotten it a lot cheaper second-hand. I don't think I should be required to explain why I want mint products, but I did it anyway because I'm just such a nice guy ;)
Also, if I even spend another half hour on 'fixing' the mat, I might already buy a new one if I just worked for that time. And I didn't want to heat the mat/use a dryer because this is not an officially recommended treatment and Paizo would be in their full right not to accept a mat that has been treated like that for return.
I would be willing to wait a week or two if I Paizo guarantees me that I can still return it if it doesn't get better.
I'm not sure why people are attacking Malaclypse. I like Paizo as much as anyone else here. I think that they do a great job. And, unlike some other companies, when customers have issues there normally go out of their way to see that they are resolved to the customer's satisfaction. That said, they are not (and have not claimed to be) perfect.
Personally I can understand Malaclypse disappointment with the product that he received. The one vinyl battlemat that I ordered (about 12 years ago now) was from Crystal Caste and came rolled up in a mailing tube. As you would expect from being rolled up like that, the mat had a curve to it that required a bit of weight being placed on it for some time in order to get it to lay flat.
If I ordered a mat from Paizo I would expect the same thing to happen. What I would not expect would be for the mat to turn up looking like the mat in Malaclypse's photo. I would be pretty disappointed if that arrived in the post for me.
If given the preference, I would prefer the vinyl mats to come in a mailing tube, even if this cost more to post and meant that you couldn't combine them in an order with another product.
If you are going to continue to pack them into boxes in the future, I think there at least needs to be a warning in the product description so that those ordering the product know what to expect and can choose not to the order the product if they aren't happy with that packaging option.
As an aside, someone from Paizo stated that the system Paizo uses means that the mats could either be posted in a tube or in a box, but there was no way to provide customers with a choice, it was either or. The tube option is more expensive as it always ships separately, while the box would allow you to combine the mat with other things.
As a possile solution to this problem, could you not create 2 different products. Product 1 is called "Vinyl mat in a tube". It has the parameters set so that it cannot be posted with anything else and always ships separately. Product 2 is called "Vinyl mat in a box". It is just like a normal product and can be shipped with other items. The product description for both items would have a link to the other item and explain the differences between the 2 items.
This would allow customers to choose the shipping option they prefer, whist still working within the limitation of the Paizo ordering system. Everybody wins! Can anyone see a flaw that I may have overlooked in my plan? I can't but there probably is one! :-D
Just my 2 cents.
Olaf the Stout
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Chief Technical Officer
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As a possile solution to this problem, could you not create 2 different products. Product 1 is called "Vinyl mat in a tube". It has the parameters set so that it cannot be posted with anything else and always ships separately....
Yep—that's exactly the way we'd have to do it. And I wish I could say I think it would make things better, but personally, I think it would cause more problems than the current situation. You'd probably be surprised at how much of our customer service work comes from situations where people just didn't read the product description/shipping options/checkout summary/order confirmation. Adding additional complexity to any product or process generates customer service problems—and, keep in mind, as Jeff said, we've shipped a ton of mats this way over the years, generally without incident. Obviously, we haven't made *every* customer happy, but I think we'd have even *more* unhappy people if we added complexity to the situation.
Plus, what happens if we promise to ship it in a tube, and it came to us folded from our distributor—which is very likely, especially with the bigger mats?
I figured that would be the case. You would get people complaining that they didn't know about the other (cheaper shipping) product or something similar. Oh well, you can't keep them all happy.
In any case, I don't think the fact that you receive them from the distributor that way should be the customer's problem. If you are getting them from the distributor looking like that then I would be having a word to the distributor.
But hey, you guys have been running this business successfully for quite a few years now so I'm sure you know what the best course of action is here.
Olaf the Stout
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Olaf I was not personally attacking Malaclypse, what I was doing though was questioning him and why he wanted to basically ignore the good advice on what was given on how to flatten the mat back up.Being that they get it that way from their distributor, could also mean this is the way they get it from Chessex. I know when I have ordered from Chessex, the people that make the mats, I got them in a box and not a tube too.. so I do not think that it is the distributor. I now have 7 mats and all of them are in excellent shape. Flat and without a single crease. All came with almost the same type of damage that Malaclypse had on his and yet mine are fine. I am not saying that Malaclypse has no case or merit in his views on this topic, but if he is not trying to follow some of the advice given above because it is not officially backed... then he should return it. But coming on here and bringing it in to the public eye you are going to get this type of commentary based on their previous experiences.
Malaclypse. I would have to disagree with the comment about unambiguous statements though. I thought that what people had said and I had said in my last comment to you was completely transparent and forthwith. The hair dryer trick was just one of many many options that was given.. among them the sun and setting it on a table lying in the sun and such was among them too. While not "Official" it has worked for many many people not just them. As I have stated before too, I have had those same exact types of folds on my mat. They did come out and no books heavy or otherwise did NOT get them out. (Not yelling or admonishing here, just stating fact). Heat is the only thing that will get them out. Hair drying is not necessarily the best way but it does work with out wrecking it too.
Chessex does have an official answer to your problem, if books do not work, then use warm water and then roll it up continuing to use warm water until the crease is gone. (This is "official" from the actual mat maufacturer).
Good luck either way.. if you return it then so be it, but I do not think that people were trying to offend you or put you on the defensive but trying to actually help you. :)
Malaclypse. I would have to disagree with the comment about unambiguous statements though. I thought that what people had said and I had said in my last comment to you was completely transparent and forthwith.
The unambiguous was referring to the fact that some people said it would get perfect, while others said that the creases remain.
The hair dryer trick was just one of many many options that was given.. among them the sun and setting it on a table lying in the sun and such was among them too. While not "Official" it has worked for many many people not just them. As I have stated before too, I have had those same exact types of folds on my mat. They did come out and no books heavy or otherwise did NOT get them out. (Not yelling or admonishing here, just stating fact). Heat is the only thing that will get them out. Hair drying is not necessarily the best way but it does work with out wrecking it too.
Chessex does have an official answer to your problem, if books do not work, then use warm water and then roll it up continuing to use warm water until the crease is gone. (This is "official" from the actual mat maufacturer).
I stated before why I was hesitant to use hair dryers - void of warranty.
... as Jeff said, we've shipped a ton of mats this way over the years, generally without incident. Obviously, we haven't made *every* customer happy, but I think we'd have even *more* unhappy people if we added complexity to the situation.
But many of the comments (linked in my first post) seem to indicate otherwise.
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... as Jeff said, we've shipped a ton of mats this way over the years, generally without incident. Obviously, we haven't made *every* customer happy, but I think we'd have even *more* unhappy people if we added complexity to the situation.But many of the comments (linked in my first post) seem to indicate otherwise.
'Many' being the whopping three posts that address the shipping of product? Most of the posts in that thread, spanning two years, deal with keeping the mat dry-erase mark free.
Assuming Paizo has sold more than a handful of these, it's not looking like the systemic problem you indicate in your OP.
Note, I'm not saying your mat isn't damaged, I'm saying that it seems to me your experience is the exception rather than the rule.