| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Alright class. Assume a frictionless Cavalier wielding a Lance atop her trusty mount (well, at least the relationship between the is frictionless :D), wanting to charge some baddies.
We all know that Cavaliers love to charge, and often-times using a Lance from the back of their mounts. Charging has many known limitations, of course, such as having another creature in the way. Being able to bulldoze over a creature in the way would be terrific , and having the Charge Through feat is terrific for that.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
The question is, should the Cavalier take the feat or should her mount (with 3 int or more) take the feat?
Here's another feat that begs the same question: Rhino Charge.
Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.
The cavalier likely be the one making the attack at the end of the charge (since the mount only has 5ft of reach but the cavalier has 10 with the lance), but they are both technically charging? So who should take the feat?
I guess the core question becomes this: When you are riding a mount in combat, who really does the charging? Is it my mount who readies an action to charge (and I'm just along for the ride...and the lance-skewer at the end) or is it really me who does it and my mount just moves me (but also gets to attack)? Does the mount even get to attack? When I wield a lance I have more reach than my mount, and the charge in theory stops once I've attacked with my lance. I guess if I have Ride-by-Attack we can keep going and my mount can also get a Bite attack or something as we go by and it still counts as a charging attack for the mount?
I'm hoping to have my mount take: Power Attack, Improved overrun, Charge Through, Improved Bullrush, Rhino Charge, and Greater overrun.
That way I can have my mount ready an action to charge, charge during an opponent's action, bowl over an enemy on the way, get an AoO (both me with my lance and my mount) on that enemy, skewer the target, and if the target is still alive at that point, try to use Bodyguard and In Harm's Way to protect my ally.
When I first read the title, I thought you were saying that mounted combat feats were worthless. :)
I think this is an interesting question. I would say that it probably depends on the feat. I would think Charge Through would make more sense if the mount had it. Rhino Charge I think you'd run into a problem that if the mount had it, they could ready a charge but that doesn't mean the mounted character gets to act unless they ready to attack when their mount charges, in which case you might as well have the action be from the mounted character, and the readied action be "I ready to spur my mount into a charge and attack when X occurs".
I came to the same conclusions as Gauthok - right down to thinking that this thread was going to be about the value of mounted feats. ^__^
So if the Cavalier readies the charge, does the mount need to have any actions left? Let's say the mount used its standard action (or even a full-round action) already. The cavalier still has a Standard to Ready an action. Would that work by RAW?
Logically, I'd say that if the mount has a move action left, the readied charge can happen but the mount doesn't get to attack at the end of the charge. If the mount has a standard action left, then it gets to attack at the end of the charge like normal.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
hmmmm.. the thing in the way of my charging is usually an ally...
Since both you and the mount are effectively charging i would say as long as either of you have it you're good. If the mount is charging the mount is charging. If the mount is charging you have all the benefits and drawbacks of a charge, one benefit of which would be the ability to use this feat.
For the ally, this is why the Friendly Switch feat exists right?
Benefit: As part of your movement or as a 5-foot-step, you can move into the space occupied by an ally of your size or smaller, which displaces the ally into the space you just left. Your ally must be willing and able to move and able to occupy the space you were in. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This does not count toward your ally’s movement on his next turn.
Reading the feat, it looks like you can use it to clear any number of allies from your path! Charging is movement, so as a part of it it looks like one can use this feat.
What does everyone else think?
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
hmmmm.. the thing in the way of my charging is usually an ally...
Since both you and the mount are effectively charging i would say as long as either of you have it you're good. If the mount is charging the mount is charging. If the mount is charging you have all the benefits and drawbacks of a charge, one benefit of which would be the ability to use this feat.
Charge Through (Combat)
You can overrun enemies when charging.Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack,
base attack bonus +1.
When someone tries to overrun with his mount an enemy who overruns? He or his mount? Whose CMB do you use for the check? Mounts or riders? This shows who overruns? The way I played it I used the mounts cmb and I demanded from the mount to be able to know improved overrun. I do not if I am right, at least tis is how I understood the RAW but IMO the mount overruns not the rider. So if this is true then the answer to the Charge through question is simple: If the mount overruns the the mount must know the charge through feat in order to use it.
If I am wrong then this means that mount and rider both benefit from feats that affect charge and only one of them is necessary to know the feat in order to use the action while mounted. But if this is true the mount is not a companion how will it gain the feat in order to do so?
This would mean that a normal mount could never learn improved overrun so it would be impossible for a rider to improve overrun with it. So I am confused and I believe to tink that I am wrong and you are right, but I do not know.
An what about trample? Who overruns there you or your mount? Meaning which CMB is lost and who loses the attack? If your mounts looses it then you can still make a normal attack after?
in 3.5 there was a feat to let the mount do the overrunning for you (when its +4 to the check from size would likely mean it had a higher chance of succeeding than you did) that would indicate that the default is that the rider is usually making the checks. The character is supposed to be the main character, the horse the sidekick (despite the horse usually being more charismatic, pleasant, and hygienic than the PCs...)
By RAW, the Trample feat says that the RIDER performs the overrun attack...and I can see a little bit of their point, since the rider is the one directing the mount.
Trample is REALLY not worth a feat at all, and Charge Through is just plain BETTER, since the overruned target provokes from both the rider AND the mount, so both a hoof (or more likely, a bite) and a lance can attack.
If I were to make changes, I'd say that the Rider takes the Trample feat (as default), but the CMB calculation is as thus: Rider's or Mount's BAB (whichever is higher) + Mount's STR + Mount's Size bonus.
As for the question of who performs the overruning, by logic I'd say the mount, hence why I'm leaning towards the mount taking Power Attack, Imp Overrun, and Charge Through. It saves 2 feats that the rider would've needed to take, which is good.
As for the question of who performs the overruning, by logic I'd say the mount, hence why I'm leaning towards the mount taking Power Attack, Imp Overrun, and Charge Through. It saves 2 feats that the rider would've needed to take, which is good.
But mounts don't advance in feats as quickly as PC's, so the player will have to wait longer (probably longer than most campaigns) before getting to use the feat, which is bad.
Yeah, but it's better than NOT getting them at all thanks to running out of room. Your mount taking on feats basically means bonus feats for YOU when it comes to mounted combat. the progression may be slow, but it's better than nothing.
Sorry, I got stuck @
Assume a frictionless Cavalier wielding a Lance atop her trusty mountAnd I lost it. this sounds like it was going to splash when it hit the bottom.. :P
Well you should read the rest of my post as well ;) It's just as interesting.