One of my players is running an Inquisitor. The thing is, he's using an archery Inquisitor. The Teamwork Feats don't seem to help him much since he's usually standing away from the rest of the party and can't flank anything with a bow unless he uses the Gang Up feat.
Because of this, I've been trying to think of a 'replacement' for the teamwork feats. In theory, all feats are supposed to be equal, so if I just replace them with a limited list 'normal' feats he shouldn't become too powerful.
My current idea is to give him feats that complement the 'witch hunter' or 'monster hunter' theme that many inquisitors have. Also, I'm thinking of replacing 'solo tactics' with an ability that lets him quality for feats as a fighter of 3/4ths of his inquisitor level. After all, many of the fighter bonus feats are focused upon interrupting casters and piercing defenses... which fits the inquisitor's theme perfectly.
What feats to you think would look good on the Inquisitor's list? Here are the ones that I've come up with so far: Combat Casting, Disrupting Shot, Disruptive, Enforcer, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Iron Will, Iron Will, Penetrating Strike, Spell Penetration, Spellbreaker.
I guess you could call this a 'Witch Hunter' or 'Monster Hunter' archetype for the inquisitor. Does anyone have any suggestions for this? I'll be honest, I haven't seen an Inquisitor in action yet so I don't know if this will hurt class balance or not. I just want to give my player some additional options since he doesn't like the teamwork feats.
I agree that the team work feats do seem kind of annoying since the others have to have them as well. And I like your solution. But isn't it the Inquistor that gets the ability to use his teamwork feats as though others had them as well? If so, that will also need replacing.
Solo Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor’s allies
are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as
the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the
inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. Her
allies do not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they
actually possess the feats themselves. The allies’ positioning
and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the
teamwork feat for the inquisitor to receive the listed bonus.
Yes.
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One of my players is running an Inquisitor. The thing is, he's using an archery Inquisitor. The Teamwork Feats don't seem to help him much since he's usually standing away from the rest of the party and can't flank anything with a bow unless he uses the Gang Up feat.
Because of this, I've been trying to think of a 'replacement' for the teamwork feats. In theory, all feats are supposed to be equal, so if I just replace them with a limited list 'normal' feats he shouldn't become too powerful.
My current idea is to give him feats that complement the 'witch hunter' or 'monster hunter' theme that many inquisitors have. Also, I'm thinking of replacing 'solo tactics' with an ability that lets him quality for feats as a fighter of 3/4ths of his inquisitor level. After all, many of the fighter bonus feats are focused upon interrupting casters and piercing defenses... which fits the inquisitor's theme perfectly.
What feats to you think would look good on the Inquisitor's list? Here are the ones that I've come up with so far: Combat Casting, Disrupting Shot, Disruptive, Enforcer, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Iron Will, Iron Will, Penetrating Strike, Spell Penetration, Spellbreaker.
I guess you could call this a 'Witch Hunter' or 'Monster Hunter' archetype for the inquisitor. Does anyone have any suggestions for this? I'll be honest, I haven't seen an Inquisitor in action yet so I don't know if this will hurt class balance or not. I just want to give my player some additional options since he doesn't like the teamwork feats.
Whats wrong with the other 5 or 6 non-melee teamwork feats?
I agree that the team work feats do seem kind of annoying since the others have to have them as well. And I like your solution. But isn't it the Inquistor that gets the ability to use his teamwork feats as though others had them as well? If so, that will also need replacing.
Yes, he does get to pretend that his allies have the teamwork feats. The problem simply was that we went through the list of feats and found that they were barely useful for his character.
Whats wrong with the other 5 or 6 non-melee teamwork feats?
He did pick a few of those. He's creating a level 9 character so that he's the same level as the rest of the party, and thus gets 3 teamwork feats. The thing is that they seem very unlikely to actually benefit him much. I believe his choices were Duck and Cover (this is probably the most useful one), Allied Spellcaster, and Swap Places.
Duck and Cover may occasionally be useful, we'll have to see. The problem is that he's likely to be standing away from any ally who has a high reflex save since they will be attacking at close range while he'll want to be at long range.
Swap places could end up being useful if an enemy actually engages him in melee, but once again, since he's going to be far away from everyone else he'll have to provoke an attack of opportunity to reach someone to swap with. It seems like just stepping back 5 feet and firing a shot would be more useful.
Spell Penetration would be better than Allied spellcaster in every way since no one else will be using the same spells as him (the other spellcasters are a bard and a sorceror).
After this....the only other teamwork feat that I can imagine would be useful at all for an archer would be Lookout.
I admit that the teamwork feats can be useful for him on occasion, but the class is forcing him to get way too many of them considering how few are useful for his type of character. If we actually get to level 15 he'll just be picking feats that do absolutely nothing for him. I suppose there's a chance that in a real game the feats will work better than I'm thinking they will, but I'm pretty doubtful.
The Teamwork Feats don't seem to help him much since he's usually standing away from the rest of the party and can't flank anything with a bow unless he uses the Gang Up feat.
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So why doesn´t he use the Gang Up feat?
Lookout is awesome, and Swap Places is great for when a 5´ step doesn´t work to get out of threat...
Like all the monsters with Reach, you can move behind an ally and benefit from cover vs. reach attacks, avoiding AoO´s.
I DO expect more Teamwork Feats WILL be released eventually,
in Campaign Setting products + Complete Melee or whatnot.
Much to the chagrin of Pandan, also an archery-based inquisitor, Gang-Up does NOT work from range, as specified here.
He has gained quite a lot of use of Duck and Cover, however. And remember, it's not the ally's reflex save that matters, it's the ally's die roll.
Much to the chagrin of Pandan, also an archery-based inquisitor, Gang-Up does NOT work from range, as specified here.
He has gained quite a lot of use of Duck and Cover, however. And remember, it's not the ally's reflex save that matters, it's the ally's die roll.
Wuuut. I thought that was the entire point of gang up. Well, I guess it would be useful against huge enemies such as dragons. Either way, that just compounds the inquisitor's problems then.
Good point about Duck and Cover. I guess he'll be standing next to the party Sorceror a lot then if I don't houserule to give him that other feat list.
As hes an archery specialist, i'd recommend giving him a equivalent of Precise Strike- something like 'when the target of your attack is threatened by two flanking allies, gain +1d6 precision damage'. Obviously inquisitor only as it doesn't require allies to have the teamwork feat.
Hmm, I suppose that I could just create new teamwork feats such as that one for the Inquisitor.
Still though, I'd like to hear if anyone thinks the 'witch hunter' archetype that I proposed would be an even trade for the teamwork feats.
Personally, I do. But I think if you are going to go with an archetype, you should make sure you post it up here when you're done with it. The people on these boards (myself included), like to see finished products a lot more than general ideas. Also an idea, maybe look at the spell lists too. See if there is anything else you can add in there that goes along with the general concept. And beware of trolls.....
PS. Just remember that even if no one else likes your idea, you can still do it. (No one here will know)
1)There 6 FREE Team Feat that you get over 20 level
2)4 or 5 have noththing to do with Melee
3) Make sure that you have a Buckler
4) Make a Archery team work feat like this
Foward Obseriver(Team Work) Rec Point Blank and Prise Shot BaB +6
If one person with this feat hit a target miss Chance then the rest of the team dose not have to roll it that round
Hail Shot (Team Work) Rec Point Blank and Prise Shot BaB +4
If one person with this feat hit target with cover then all on team can shot with out cover modifer for that round.
Evey body wants to make inquisitor an archer cause that do not want to wast any of the judgement. But the Melee side is every strong of the inquisitor.
The archer inquistor should stand next to Casters and by his best freinds.
Personally, I do. But I think if you are going to go with an archetype, you should make sure you post it up here when you're done with it. The people on these boards (myself included), like to see finished products a lot more than general ideas. Also an idea, maybe look at the spell lists too. See if there is anything else you can add in there that goes along with the general concept. And beware of trolls.....
PS. Just remember that even if no one else likes your idea, you can still do it. (No one here will know)
Good point. Honestly though, the finished version will only be different in that it will be better organized. ;)
And sure, I could just ignore everyone's opinions and use the archetype in my game either way, but if people point out any horrible flaws I will definately keep them in mind so that I can make final tweeks before presenting the final list to my player. For example, I am using 3/4ths of the character's inquisitor level to calculate what fighter feats he qualifies for because people rightfully pointed out that the Magus' ability to count as a fighter of 1/2 his magus level is kind of weak.
Inquisitors get powerful judgements, spells, the Bane ability, decent skill points, and teamwork feats. Allowing them access to fighter only feats is way too much of a boost.
Mind if I ask how so? Unless I'm mistaken, the only fighter feats that are even that great are the Weapon Specialization ones. Also, keep in mind that he'll be losing his teamwork feats if he takes the proposed archetype.
Letting the Inquisitor count as 3/4ths of a fighter for the purposes of feats seems like an even trade for solo tactics to me. The 3/4ths means he'd get the feats several levels later than a normal fighter, and some he won't even qualify for until he reaches epic levels.
Alright, for clarity, here's the Inquisitor Archetype that I propose. I admit though, the flavor text that I gave him makes him sound like he should have the ranger's 'favored enemy' ability XD
Abomination Hunter
Abomination Hunters are inquisitors who are entirely devoted to destroying those things that their organizations detest. Unlike other inquisitors, these hunters do not necessarily preffer to work with others and have instead recieved additional combat training or mental conditioning to overcome their enemies.
Combat Training (Ex)
At 3rd level, the inquisitor counts as a fighter of 3/4ths of his inquisitor level for the purposes of qualifying for feats. This ability replaces solo tactics.
Bonus Feats
At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the inquisitor gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. The inquisitor must meet the prerequisites of the selected bonus feat. These bonus feats replace the inquisitor's teamwork feats.
These bonus feats must be selected from the following: Combat Casting, Disrupting Shot, Disruptive, Enforcer, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Iron Will, Iron Will, Penetrating Strike, Spell Penetration, Spellbreaker.
Clarify for me whether you intend to simply replace teamwork feats with the ability to be treated as a fighter of 3/4 level or whether you intend to also award feats in addition to this.
If its the former your probably selling him short.
Sorry about being unclear, I've listed the full details in my above post. I'm basically just trying to give my player another option since he doesn't seem too interested in teamwork feats, and I'm trying to make sure that it isn't any stronger or weaker than an inquisitor should be.
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The sound and fluff of the Abomination Hunter doesn't really sound much different to a standard Inquisitor. Even in a party, he is selfish with spells, abilities and 'solo tactics'.
For your archer player, i'd recommend simply increasing the amount of teamwork feats for him to choose from. The Inq is a really great class as it is, easily making up for its lower BAB and HD with ridiculously good spells like Flames of the Faithful and the ability to Bane pretty much anything.
The sound and fluff of the Abomination Hunter doesn't really sound much different to a standard Inquisitor. Even in a party, he is selfish with spells, abilities and 'solo tactics'.
For your archer player, i'd recommend simply increasing the amount of teamwork feats for him to choose from. The Inq is a really great class as it is, easily making up for its lower BAB and HD with ridiculously good spells like Flames of the Faithful and the ability to Bane pretty much anything.
Good points. I guess I'm just more iffy about creating new teamwork feats for some reason. XD I guess I should see if I can come up with something.
Honestly though, part of the reason why I'm doing this is because I don't think inquisitors should have teamwork feats in the first place. When I think of vampire hunters and witch hunters and such I think of people who work alone, not someone who wants to be constantly standing next to a teammate. Maybe I've just been playing too many castlevania games.
Honestly though, part of the reason why I'm doing this is because I don't think inquisitors should have teamwork feats in the first place. When I think of vampire hunters and witch hunters and such I think of people who work alone, not someone who wants to be constantly standing next to a teammate. Maybe I've just been playing too many castlevania games
Watson and Sherlock home could be thought of as this type as well
An Inquisitor is a waste of a character, game mechanic-wise, without other people with teamwork feats.
The idea of an Inquisitor being a master of teamwork feats seems silly IMHO. (quote edited)
I don't really see the inquisitor as a "master of teamwork feats". Especially, since he can use them when others do not possess the feats. I visualize it more as he is an okay combatant, until the adversary's attention is split (flanked) and then he unleashes with all sorts of dirty deeds upon the baddie.
With solo tactics, he doesn't need someone else to possess teamwork feats. He just needs to maneuver himself into a flanking position. Hence the popularity of the travel domain for the extra movement for maneuvering.
As for people being inquisitors, the first fantasy character that comes to mind is R.E.H.'s Solomon Kane. But I do think the original Van Helsing (not the anime) could be an excellent choice.
So summing up, doesn't require another with team work, just needs flankers.
And gosh, my groups are always trying to flank anyway.
Greg
The game is designed with parties in mind. A solo game is something else entirely.
Yeah, but I really didn't help with the original posters concern about archer/ranged inquisitors and how teamwork bonus feats are not as nice for them. I dun't have issues with it, but can see it problimatic for others. And kudos to a GM that tries to help his players.
I like the idea of just creating teamwork feats that favor ranged attackers, but my creativity index is currently null and void. :(
OH, and once again, I find myself in total agreement with umbral.
...skeery.
Greg
Why not just go with the Preacher archetype? It replaces teamwork feats with the ability to reroll an attack per 3 levels, they can also make enemies reroll attacks.
Not to rain on the "Gang Up" feat parade, but...
The FAQ states that it doesn't apply to ranged attacks.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n87
Why not just go with the Preacher archetype? It replaces teamwork feats with the ability to reroll an attack per 3 levels, they can also make enemies reroll attacks.
The option wasn't around when the OP started this thread, but yeah that's what i did with my crossbow focused inquisitor. Alas he's dead now...
It sucks that is the only option at the moment, as "preacher" has some pretty hefty roleplaying connotations IMO and doesn't fit every concept obviously.
I was disappointed that more of the archetypes didn't replace the teamwork chain. An inquisitor gets repeating xbow for free, but then has to take a bunch of melee focused feats...bleargh.
Wow, I try and be better about realizing a thread is really a zombie.
I think that you could recolor the preacher abilities as occurring from witty quips or a steely glare instead of impassioned speeches. Particularly because they don't have time for long speeches for there abilities to take effect.
Wow, I try and be better about realizing a thread is really a zombie.
I think that you could recolor the preacher abilities as occurring from witty quips or a steely glare instead of impassioned speeches. Particularly because they don't have time for long speeches for there abilities to take effect.
I'm with you on that. Just lamenting about the lack of alternatives. Like some of the posters above, the teamwork aspect of the inquisitor class seems out of place to me....definitely has a more loner feel IMO, especially using iconic examples from other sources. It seems like they just threw that in there because they just invented teamwork feats and were like "uhhh we need to put these somewhere errr how bout here!"
Doctor van Helsing most certainly would work with teamwork feats. So much of the book was about him using teamwork to take down Dracula.
"The game is designed with parties in mind. A solo game is something else entirely."
No it's not. Sometimes parties get separated, other characters get knocked out, and heck, if someone wanted to play solo with a DM, you can do that too in this game. Yes, the game is better with parties, I even buy that it is designed with parties in mind, but it's not "something else entirely." There are plenty of situations where a character will be solo.
As for Van Helsing, I was referring more towards the lame movie, but in the Dracula novel, yes he was a team player, but just not a teamwork feat type of character. (E.g. I didn't see him doing acrobatic cartwheels with his arms grabbing another guy's legs, locking shields, flank enemies...).
A shame. I like the idea of the character class, and for fans of Inquisitors in fantasy and history like Solomon Kane, I'd rather go with an actual Inquisitor class instead of making him a fighter/cleric. The teamwork feat thing just doesn't ring true to the character class IMHO.
I completely agree. In fact, considering that the weapon proficiencies beg you to go ranged, I think that the Preacher archetype is what the default Inquisitor should have been (without the Preacher fluff), and the teamwork feats should have been in a "melee" archetype that swaps the ranged weapons for a few martial melee proficiencies and maybe takes away domains or something. Or maybe have a list of bonus feats to choose from every 4th level or so.
As this is a thread-surrection in light of UC; just curious why an archer wouldn't be interested in these teamwork feats.
Enfilading Fire (Combat, Teamwork)
Your ranged attacks take advantage of the flanking maneuvers of allies.Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, one other teamwork feat.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on ranged attacks made against a foe flanked by 1 or more allies with this feat.
Target of Opportunity (Combat, Teamwork)
You and your allies pelt your enemies with a deadly barrage of missiles.Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat makes a ranged attack and hits an opponent within 30 feet of you, you can spend an immediate action to make a single ranged attack against that opponent. Your ranged weapon must be in hand, loaded, and ready to be fired or thrown for you to make the ranged attack.
If anybody in the party is looking at a feint oriented build:
Feint Partner (Combat, Teamwork)
A little diversion is all you need to slip through your foe’s defenses.Prerequisite: Bluff 1 rank.
Benefit: Whenever an ally who also has this feat successfully feints an opponent, that opponent also loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against the next attack you make against him before the end of the feinting ally’s next turn.
Improved Feint Partner (Combat, Teamwork)
Knowledge of your companions’ tricks and techniques allow you to take even greater advantage of your allies’ feints.Prerequisite: Bluff 1 rank, Combat Reflexes, Feint Partner, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Whenever an ally who also has this feat successfully feints against an opponent, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
and of course why not
Shake It Off (Teamwork)
You support your allies and help them recover from crippling effects.Benefit: When you are adjacent to one or more allies who also have this feat, you gain a +1 bonus on saving throws per such ally (maximum +4).
If you are near the casters you get a +X to saves, yes please.