Classic Monsters Revisited is a 3.5 product and uses 3.5 rules. Drowning and suffocation did indeed work in 3.5.
Yep.
I wasn't arguing RAW (with isn't 3.5). I was only speaking of their intent behind the creature's functions in the game world (the intent behind the thing).
The book was written for their Pathfinder world. Its a book that (short of a few specific example creatures or items) were rules-lite to the point of nearly non-existent, and mostly setting text.
Unless something has changed for the setting flavour, I think the what was intended to work before is still the same.
But, this is just a point about indicating where the devs are looking from, not how a DM should rule in an actual game. The RAI was brought up, and I was just responding to that; giving a bit of insight that some might not have known about (it wasn't in the main campaign setting books).
Voidstone golem. Period.
Classic Monsters Revisited is a 3.5 product and uses 3.5 rules. Drowning and suffocation did indeed work in 3.5.Yep.
I wasn't arguing RAW (with isn't 3.5). I was only speaking of their intent behind the creature's functions in the game world (the intent behind the thing).
The book was written for their Pathfinder world. Its a book that (short of a few specific example creatures or items) were rules-lite to the point of nearly non-existent, and mostly setting text.
Unless something has changed for the setting flavour, I think the what was intended to work before is still the same.But, this is just a point about indicating where the devs are looking from, not how a DM should rule in an actual game. The RAI was brought up, and I was just responding to that; giving a bit of insight that some might not have known about (it wasn't in the main campaign setting books).
Except that CMR does NOT necessarily speak to RAI, because 3.5 forced them to accept that starvation and drowning kills trolls in 3.5. That is not the case in RAW in Pathfinder, which, since it is a change from 3.5, suggests that the RAI is that starvation and drowning won't kill trolls in Pathfinder.
I wouldn't kill it. I would find another way to trap it, eg a mirror of life stealing, or find a master transmuter to use Polymorph Any Object into a table and then burn the table as it's no longer immune to fire, I don't think.
Sure it's 20th level and has awesome saving throws so it's not necessarily going to be defeated by those particular examples, but what I'm getting at is the point of an adversary like that wouldn't be how to do hit point damage, it would be how to get rid of it. It's actually a great story hook idea--rather than have to face down the monster (because that would be suicide if completely unprepared) the party has to research an artifact, bury it under Mt. Etna, etc. in order to rid of this fiendish unholy abomination from the land. (Would also be a great "sleeping evil" to avoid awakening.)
well, just hack it into negative HP, drag it to a larger settlement, build a shack around it, and start selling Troll Kebab and Troll Sausages.
Hire some servlings with profession(cook), have the shack open 24/7, and enjoy income and perpetual "death" due to coup-de-grace with a meat cleaver.
It'll eventually become a cult location for dining.
The story-teller in me likes this.
The player in me that always chooses LG characters scolds it.
The part of me that tried visualizing...shudders.
Ah, internal conflict. :-D
I do wish I could say I hadn't thought something similar before, though...
Just burn or acid the troll and finish it off the next round.
Just because it's immune to fire and acid damage doesn't mean they don't turn off the regeneration.
Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.Nothing in there says that the attack form must deal hit point damage. Burn the troll, done.
I'd argue that the last line, "The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning" means that the damage must actually be dealt. For example, let's say that somehow I manage to put the fire descriptor on Charm Monster, and cast it on a troll. It is a fire attack, so does it make the regeneration stop? Probably not, because no damage is dealt. By the last line, specifically referring to damage, you can't use fire or acid to stop the regeneration of a creature who is immune to those.
So the troll is a CR 27 you realize. Not many PC's are going to ever see this thing. Why don't you make it a half celestial instead. Then it can be a cleric of pelor(or whatever pathfinder has I haven't checked out the pantheon) who is charged with putting the tarrasque back where he belongs every million years. Not to mention, wish would most definitely kill it as it doesn't have the tarrasques text saying that even if it does die it is reborn in 3 rounds.
True on all counts... although an Antimagic Field can protect against Wish and Miracle, I believe. And I think there are four monsters in the bestiary that are higher than CR 20.
Hmm, I'm not sure it would be CR 27, though - seems CR 24 to me. Troll (CR 5) plus Half Fiend Template (CR +3 by the time all the cleric levels are added) is a CR 8, so 8 cleric levels are worth 1/2 CR each because cleric isn't a troll's normal role. Thus, it would be CR 12 by the time you added 8 levels, and the remaining 12 would make it CR 24.
And making it a cleric of Pelor wouldn't give it immunity to fire and acid - you need both the fire and earth domains.
I'm not sufficiently familiar with 3.5 and Pathfinder crunch, so bear with me, but ... would turning the creature to stone, which I presume might rob it of its regeneration capabilities as it's no longer living flesh, followed by a disintegrate be sufficient, or am I missing something patently obvious?
I thought about the whole flesh to stone path. Problem is that the RAW don't say anything that suggests regeneration ceases upon that transmutation. And they do say that it can't die while it's regenerating.
Really, it's a rules edge-condition and as written it looks pretty solid.
Hmm. While I understand that interpretation, I'm not sure I agree.
According to RAW, under "regeneration" in the Pathfinder Bestiary, it reads, "Creatures with regeneration ... cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning ...." [Italics mine.]
The spell Flesh to Stone, also RAW (from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook), reads, "The subject ... turns into a mindless, inert statue." [Again, italics mine.]
In my opinion, one may reasonably rule that since rendering something inert means that all processes (including, presumably, magical ones) cease functioning, disintegrate should work on a petrified troll.
Your mileage may vary, of course. It would be enough for me, though.
The way I would read it, Flesh to Stone would not kill the creature alone. It can be reversed by other spells, and when it is the "soul" or spirit of that individual was still in there. But, as it would temporarily be a statue, rather than a troll, it would not have the troll's racial traits while it was stone. So, it definately could be disintegrated, and that would definately "kill" it.
Would it be easy to do to a Level 20 Cleric that's fighting back with spells, though? Probably not.
How to kill said troll?
1) Hold Monster
2) Remove helmet.
3) Create Water
4) Drown troll.
Step #1 could be replaced with other methods of immobilization, like grappling and pinning, iron bands, etc.
Drowning will not kill a regenerating creature. It'll go to -1 hit points, but even if it fails the Fortitude saves, it cannot die until (for a troll) it takes acid or fire damage.
Hmm. While I understand that interpretation, I'm not sure I agree.
According to RAW, under "regeneration" in the Pathfinder Bestiary, it reads, "Creatures with regeneration ... cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning ...." [Italics mine.]
The spell Flesh to Stone, also RAW (from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook), reads, "The subject ... turns into a mindless, inert statue." [Again, italics mine.]
In my opinion, one may reasonably rule that since rendering something inert means that all processes (including, presumably, magical ones) cease functioning, disintegrate should work on a petrified troll.
Your mileage may vary, of course. It would be enough for me, though.
Here's the thing. As a DM I'd totally allow this to end the troll. I agree with how you'd apply "inert". Problem is that I'm entirely sure that another DM would apply it differently. See, regeneration is (Ex). It doesn't require any action on the part of the creature. It just is. You don't necessarily lose Ex just because you're transmuted.
What I'm really getting at is that while I utterly agree with your ruling, as long as there's wiggle room for a DM to interpret the rules differently, RAW doesn't end up killing the creature. We're getting into RAI, in which case there are a bunch of ways to nuke the troll.
No, I agree with Jealithe; once you have failed your save against transmute flesh to stone, you are no longer whatever you once were. You are now a (very, very, very detailed, to the point of having cells and capillaries etc) statue. Statues, no matter how detailed, do not regenerate.
Now, I'm not saying that flesh to stone followed by disintegrate would kill the super-troll; if someone found even one speck of the dust from the troll's statue and cast stone to flesh on it, the troll would regenerate to full hit points over time. Why? Because statues are objects and thus cannot die, and because when the stone to flesh is cast to make it a creature again, its regeneration is now active again and it thus cannot die unless it takes acid or fire damage.
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Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
Okay so anything that does CON damage, isolate it so it can't eat and starves to death, or dies of dehydration. Drowning or any kind of suffocation works.
Coup de Grace can in fact still work.
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
A coup de grace on a troll means the troll WILL survive the HP damage, but it can still fail the FORT save. Nothing in Regeneration says it is immune to dying from a failed FORT save.
One way would be to reduce it to a negative HP... it falls unconscious... stick its head in a puddle of water and continue dealing enough damage to keep it unconscious... it drowns.
Find a way to create a vacuum in a room with it. It suffocates.
Bind it someway so it is helpless, coup de grace, until the SOB fails its FORT save (might take a while).
Disintegrated works fine. There is nothing left for Regeneration to regenerate. I suppose it could be argued that the fine dust regathers, but if I were the GM I would rule against that. As a Player I would look at the GM and say "Whatever man, let's see what's on TV rather than play this."
There are still ways to kill the troll. Take EVERYTHING away and make it unkillable doesn't sound like a fun game to me.
Nothing in Regeneration says it is immune to dying from a failed FORT save.
Nothing?
they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning
Nothing in Regeneration says that they're only immune to dying from hit point damage. "Cannot die" is very all-encompassing. It is an absolute. They CANNOT die.
Nothing in Regeneration says it is immune to dying from a failed FORT save.Nothing?
they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioningNothing in Regeneration says that they're only immune to dying from hit point damage. "Cannot die" is very all-encompassing. It is an absolute. They CANNOT die.
regeneration:.....A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
Once you drain con the regen no longer works.
A creature without a con score is not alive. By RAW it is a rules contradiction to say it can't die, but then to say anything without a con score is not alive, but I think the intent trumps this contradiction. Now if the DM wants the monster to live without con he might as well just say he will allow it to live no matter what, and stop using rules to try and justify it. Regeneration does not heal hp lost due to suffocation and drowning is nothing but suffocation under water. It seems like drowning should work.
Having a Con score of 0 is not the same as not having a Con score. That line refers to undead and constructs that do not have a Con score.
Correct. 0 is still a Con score. "-" is not a Con score; thus, undead and constructs cannot have Regeneration. A creature drained to 0 Con still has a Con score and thus still has Regeneration, assuming it had it to start with.
And drowning doesn't work because the creature cannot die. Note that healing and death prevention are two separate effects on Regeneration. You can cause unhealable damage without killing it.
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Having a Con score of 0 is not the same as not having a Con score. That line refers to undead and constructs that do not have a Con score.Correct. 0 is still a Con score. "-" is not a Con score; thus, undead and constructs cannot have Regeneration. A creature drained to 0 Con still has a Con score and thus still has Regeneration, assuming it had it to start with.
And drowning doesn't work because the creature cannot die. Note that healing and death prevention are two separate effects on Regeneration. You can cause unhealable damage without killing it.
Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
In the description of regeneration it SPECIFICALLY indicates that Regeneration does not heal starvation, thirst or suffocation (drowning is in fact suffocation, a lack of air to breathe).
Also note that attack forms that do not deal HP damage are NOT healed by regeneration. Thereby reducing a troll's CON to 0, means it cannot heal the CON damage.
A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.
So a troll that has its CON reduced to 0 is dead. Its regeneration can do absolutely nothing at all to restore its CON points. Not that its regeneration does not work when its CON is reduced to 0. It's just that once its CON is reduced to 0, it is dead.
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Having a Con score of 0 is not the same as not having a Con score. That line refers to undead and constructs that do not have a Con score.
You are absolutely right. I am not saying that reducing its CON to 0 means its Regeneration does not work.
I am saying that Regeneration's description says it does not restore non HP damage. And reducing a character's CON to 0 kills it.
So, a troll with 45 hp but a CON of 0 is dead. Its regeneration can do nothing to stop it from dying when its CON hits 0.
Once again, Regeneration has TWO effects:
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- The creature cannot die while Regeneration is active.
- The creature heals X damage per turn while Regeneration is active.
Negating the second effect does not negate the first effect. The only thing that negates the first effect is rendering Regeneration inactive.
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Well you can rule it that way I suppose or you can simply rule that 0 CON over rules the regeneration rules, which is what I would do.
Which rule over rides which rule? There is no rule for it. :)
And yes, it would need to be CON drain... maybe
and a troll at max hp but a CON of 0 would still be dead in my opinion.
But hey, that is why GMs are actual people and not machines like World of Warcraft. :)
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so here is a question for you.
A troll is starving...
there is no food to be had. It begins taking nonlethal damage. Finally its nonlethal damage accumulates enough to equal its HP score. Now it begins taking lethal damage. Eventually its HP is reduced to negative numbers.
Now, the troll cannot heal this damage with regeneration. Yet, its regeneration is still active so it cannot die... so it descends to an infinite negative HP for eternity but does not actually die?
Is that what you guys are saying?
If so, then just do the easy way to build the troll. He has a ring of fire and acid immunity or something it got from killing adventurers. Now it is immortal. Not even a God can kill it.
Sunder the ring. Dispel the ring. Disjoin the ring. Use antimagic. Steal (the manuever) the ring.
Sorry, a ring or two doesn't make a troll unkillable. The Cleric domains DO work because the immunity is an Ex power, which means only getting the Cleric to violate his deity's strictures will remove the immunities.
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Specific overrides general.
Now we can argue about if '0 Con is dead' is general or specific, or if 'creatures with Regeneration cannot die' is general or specific. :)
nope no argument at all.
Your way works for your game, mine works for mine. I wouldn't have it any other way. :)
Playing in your game, I would accept your interpretation, if you were in mine I would expect you to accept mine.
The LAST thing I ever want in ANY RPG, is for it to be reduced to ONE way of playing. Then it is absolutely no better than a computer game. Even when the designers come on the boards and make "official rulings" it is just their opinions. They may have intended for it to work that way, but any GM any where over rules anything they say is "official."
The way *I* play is with a rule 0, which is "fun over rules all other rules." If the rules say one thing but it really is rather lame in a specific situation, a GM should feel free to over rule it for that situation for the sake of playing a fun game. That's why I like playing Pathfinder more than World of Warcraft.
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Sunder the ring. Dispel the ring. Disjoin the ring. Use antimagic. Steal (the manuever) the ring.
Sorry, a ring or two doesn't make a troll unkillable.
Steal (the maneuver) the most fun addition to the game in my opinion! lol
but yeah, I can see no way to make a troll unkillable. Something always still works.
A troll permanently reduced to 0 CON still has Regeneration and therefore is not dead, but can not ever regain consciousness short of some outside factor aiding it. Twenty million years go by and the planet explodes to chunks, the star goes super nova, the universe expands until there is no other object within infinite distance of it, and still it is not actually dead...
well truth is doesn't matter... once reduced to 0 CON or whatever, the troll falls, the party moves on, having overcome the troll. XP is awarded. What fate befalls the troll does not matter.
The troll shows up later. The party over comes the troll some other way. XP is awarded and the party moves on.
BTW, Suggestion is a great way to get past a troll with only a +3 to its WILL save...
Even permanent drain may not be enough. If, for some reason, someone came by and cast restoration on the troll's "corpse" it would regain its Constitution and soon be restored.
Once again, Regeneration has TWO effects:
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- The creature cannot die while Regeneration is active.
- The creature heals X damage per turn while Regeneration is active.
Negating the second effect does not negate the first effect. The only thing that negates the first effect is rendering Regeneration inactive.
I realized I was trying to defeat the monster, and not just kill it. Hopefully his players figure out how to defeat it.
tamgemt: I seem to recall a way to cut a cleric off from his deity(power source). That would make him lose the immunity to fire and acid.
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And it's why I still play 3.5 :)
one of the problems I have with the whole 3.x rules system is the sheer volume of rules.
Earlier editions had much smaller rule books.
General rules were made. The GM made rulings based upon general rules and the game moved on.
Too many rules for nearly every situation is over kill. Why have a GM at all if there are rules for everything? Just write it up as a computer game and stop printing the books. Well D&D online has done half of it :)
Yeah, I've already mentioned a few ways to defeat an invincible-via-Regeneration opponent without killing it. A particularly sinister way: chop it up into very small pieces and store the largest remaining piece in a sealed, magically locked adamantium container that is too small for the creature to regrow itself in, then store it somewhere it won't be found, like floating out somewhere on the Astral (random location via a bag of holding / portable hole interaction). The smaller pieces will wither and the largest piece will be unable to regenerate to full operational status until the box is opened.
Of course, the best way is probably the petrification-disintegration trick. It could be recovered via unpetrifying one of the dust specks, but how would you ever find one to cast the spell on?
Regeneration calls out its effects on HP damage, as well as regeneration's inability to protect against starvation, drowning, thirst, ability score damage, and the like, and calls out its effects on hit points.
"Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0)."
It says they cannot die as long as their regeneration is in effect as part of explaining how they react to DAMAGE, where the general rule is you die when damage exceeds your HP by your Con score. If it meant otherwise, it would have said something along the lines of:
"Creatures with regeneration cannot be killed. Creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0."
This notes that the "cannot die" is a separate quality outside of damage effects, whereas before it is written in the context of damage application. Arguing otherwise seems completely asinine to me.
Even if you want to go with that ruling (I would walk, as another poster said, since I find it to be an intentionally malicious twisting of the context), then here are a few methods to kill the troll.
Flesh to Stone causes the troll to become and Object, which makes its regeneration meaningless. Objects can be destroyed by dealing the appropriate HP damage. Object is destroyed, so if you later turn it back into the troll, it's still destroyed / dead, so its regeneration doesn't activate.
Polymorph Any Object -> Ogre -> Slay Ogre = Win.
Destroying it via Disintegrate turns it into a layer of fine dust. Destroy said dust; see Flesh to Stone above.
Have a Shadow reduce its strength to 0. The shadow's Specific ability notes that it kills the creature when it reduces their ability score to 0; so it dies and becomes a shadow under the previous shadow's control (if you wanna argue this one, then you gotta argue specific vs specific, so have fun with that).
I'm sure there are other ways, but these are a few that sprang to mind.
And it's why I still play 3.5 :)one of the problems I have with the whole 3.x rules system is the sheer volume of rules.
Earlier editions had much smaller rule books.
General rules were made. The GM made rulings based upon general rules and the game moved on.
Too many rules for nearly every situation is over kill. Why have a GM at all if there are rules for everything? Just write it up as a computer game and stop printing the books. Well D&D online has done half of it :)
There are many people who are not capable of making decent on the spot rulings. It also promotes fairness, and when Bob from NJ has to move to Chicago he wont have to relearn the rules because of a new DM. The standardized rules are better for the hobby over all.
As regeneration only prevents the creature from dying (the "cannot die"-part), and not being dead, the different polymorph solutions is valid. If you kill the troll, while it is polymorphed into a form without regeneration, it will remain dead even though the spells are later dispelled.
There are nothing in the regeneration ability that it will come back to life, if it has already died.
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O_o Make it a 20th level oracle with the Final Revelation from the Heavens revelation list..
Upon achieving 20th level, your rapport with the heavens grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you are reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).
Job done - for that reoccurring nemesis that just keeps coming!
Actually, Jaelithe, while I continue to agree what I'd rule at the table, the RAW continue to be interesting.
I took a look at stone to flesh, which I hadn't done previously, not expecting anything interesting there.
Turns out I was wrong. "restoring life and goods". That's saying that flesh to stone or petrification in general kills the original creature.
So, either a DM rules that flesh to stone can't work because it kills the original creature and regeneration doesn't allow that (which argument I disagree with), or a DM rules the spell works. In that case, the troll dies (problem solved) and becomes an object. Objects don't have Con scores. A Con score is required for regeneration, so the statue doesn't have regeneration. Acid (and any other method that leaves no residue) can be used to destroy all traces of the statue at which point not only is the troll dead, but it cannot be restored to life.
Until someone uses true resurrection. Sigh.
For reference...
stone to flesh
This spell restores a petrified creature to its normal state, restoring life and goods. The creature must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to survive the process. Any petrified creature, regardless of size, can be restored. The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. For example, this spell would turn an animated stone statue into an animated flesh statue, but an ordinary statue would become a mass of inert flesh in the shape of the statue. You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone.
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.....O_o Make it a 20th level oracle with the Final Revelation from the Heavens revelation list..
Upon achieving 20th level, your rapport with the heavens grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you are reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).Job done - for that reoccurring nemesis that just keeps coming!
Just means you need to kill him twice. To my knowledge star children are not trolls and don't have regeneration. :P
I think it's funny. He may well go from this, to being reborn into this!
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.....O_o Make it a 20th level oracle with the Final Revelation from the Heavens revelation list..
Upon achieving 20th level, your rapport with the heavens grants you perfect harmony with the universe. You receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier. You automatically stabilize if you are below 0 hit points, are immune to fear effects, and automatically confirm all critical hits. Should you die, you are reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).Job done - for that reoccurring nemesis that just keeps coming!
Just means you need to kill him twice. To my knowledge star children are not trolls and don't have regeneration. :P
I think it's funny. He may well go from this, to being reborn into this!
Pssh, well, if you're gonna get technical..
>.>