The Amulet of Natural armor gives an enhancement bonus to
his natural armor from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet.
So does this stack with the bonus from a sorcerers Draconic natural armor? (PCR 75)
I'm so confused does the amulet grant an enhancement bonus or a Natural armor bonus?
Is there a section of the Pathfinder Corerulebook that states the different bonus types?
I remember that in 3.5 edition of the world’s most popular fantasy roleplaying game The Amulet of Natural Armor didn't stack with a creatures natural armor. Or at least I think it didn't?!?
EDITED
I am confused. I always assumed that the bonus from the amulet doesn't stack, but the wording, read carefully, suggests otherwise.
On the other hand an enhancement bonus to a type of bonus (e.g. enhancement bonus to natural armor, enhancement bonus to deflection etc.) is not sth. which I considered to be part of the rules.
Boni have types, "enhancement" is a type. An enhancement bonus to a bonus of another kind strikes me very odd.
EDIT 2
I just checked my books - they actally changed the wording from 3E to 3.5.
So 3E: Does not stack.
3.5 + PF: Does stack.
I still find this weird though.
The amulet of natural armor grants an "natural armor" bonus and thus does not stack with any natural armor bonus a creature might have from other sources.
This is incorrect.
Its an enhancement bonus to any existing natural armor. If your natural armor is 0, a +2 amulet enhances that to be +2. If your natural armor is 1 (say because you're a draconic sorcerer) your 1 is enhanced by 2 to be +3.
This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer's body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet.
Its the same thing as an enhancement bonus to plate armor. The armor is +8, a +2 enhancement bonus brings it up to +10.
The amulet of natural armor grants an "natural armor" bonus and thus does not stack with any natural armor bonus a creature might have from other sources.
Well, thats what I was thinking as well but it say it gives "an enhancement bonus to his natural armor"
And I can't find what page the stacking bonuses types are listed.
Gee I thought I had this figured out and now I'm just confused.
Please read my edited post. I think BigNorse Wolf is right.
My question: Is there another instance in the rules where there is an enhancement bonus to another kind of bonus?
Ok, I've taken this so much for granted that it did not occur to me that its basically the same thing. ;-)
Its amazing that after all these years there are still changes trom 3E to 3.5 that I missed.
Its amazing that after all these years there are still changes trom 3E to 3.5 that I missed.
I just hate that I am an experienced GM and I just got schooled by one of my new players about this.
It's like... you think you know stuff and POW you've got to learn it all again.
The natural armor bonuses from the amulet of natural armor do stack with the Dragon Disciple's natural armor increase, since as worded the DD ability works as follows:
Natural Armor Increase (Ex): As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor's physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character's existing natural armor bonus (if any) as indicated on Table 11-4 (Pg 380, PCR). These armor bonuses stack.
This isn't an enhancement (magical) bonus, but a natural inherent bonus to the characters existing Natural armor (which for a core race is generally 0). Enhancement bonuses do not stack with other enhancement bonuses (uch as a Helmet of Wisdom and a Ring of Wisdom), but they do stack with inherent bonuses (which is why things like a Tome of Gainful Exercise stacks with a Belt of Strength).
I hope this clears things up.
Is there even a situation were natural armor doesn't stack?
Amulet of natural armor stacks with draconic blood line and that stacks with the Dragon Disciples natural armor.
Isn't the point of having Stacking rules to stop craziness like this? I mean how tough can your skin get before your a walking peace of beef jerky. I suppose the ever loving blue eyed thing was pretty flexible.
What is the highest Natural armor bonus you can get as a 20th level character?
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Is there even a situation were natural armor doesn't stack?
Amulet of natural armor stacks with draconic blood line and that stacks with the Dragon Disciples natural armor.
Isn't the point of having Stacking rules to stop craziness like this? I mean how tough can your skin get before your a walking peace of beef jerky. I suppose the ever loving blue eyed thing was pretty flexible.
What is the highest Natural armor bonus you can get as a 20th level character?
Natural Armor bonuses don't stack. The Dragon Disciple Bonus stacks with the Draconic Bloodline one because it's an increase to the natural armor bonus. But the bloodline bonus doesn't stack with the one granted by form of the dragon.
The highest natural armor bonus in core would be +23 (kobold sorcerer 10/dragon disciple 10 with Improved Natural Armor (10))
Is there even a situation were natural armor doesn't stack?
Amulet of natural armor stacks with draconic blood line and that stacks with the Dragon Disciples natural armor.
Isn't the point of having Stacking rules to stop craziness like this? I mean how tough can your skin get before your a walking peace of beef jerky. I suppose the ever loving blue eyed thing was pretty flexible.
What is the highest Natural armor bonus you can get as a 20th level character?
Natural Armor bonuses don't stack. The Dragon Disciple Bonus stacks with the Draconic Bloodline one because it's an increase to the natural armor bonus. But the bloodline bonus doesn't stack with the one granted by form of the dragon.
The highest natural armor bonus in core would be +23 (kobold sorcerer 10/dragon disciple 10 with Improved Natural Armor (10))
However, if you're just playing a core race Dragon Disciple without access to the Improved Natural Armor feat (as it's in the Bestiary (pg 315), and meant for monsters, and thus not available to players without DM permission), then your Natural armor bonus would be +12, which isn't game breaking for a character that can't really wear armor, and yet will be up on the front lines.
And yes, there is a point where Natural armor doesn't stack. Any time there are multiple enhancement bonuses (not natural or inherent bonuses) the enhancement bonuses do not stack. On the same page, inherent bonuses do not stack unless they specifically say the do. Otherwise you simply use whichever bonus is better, such as with your Natural Armor (Via bloodline and DD abilities) and Form of the Dragon. You'd use the better of the two Natural Armor bonuses, not both. However, your Amulet of Natural Armor would stack with either. This would bring your Natural Armor up to +13 while polymorphed with Form of the Dragon 3.
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However, if you're just playing a core race Dragon Disciple without access to the Improved Natural Armor feat (as it's in the Bestiary (pg 315), and meant for monsters, and thus not available to players without DM permission), then your Natural armor bonus would be +12, which isn't game breaking for a character that can't really wear armor, and yet will be up on the front lines.
Even with the Improved Natural Armor feat it's not game breaking, considering you have to sacrifice all of your feats. Fighters of you level will still have no problems hitting you and the same goes for monsters.
Even with the Improved Natural Armor feat it's not game breaking, considering you have to sacrifice all of your feats. Fighters of you level will still have no problems hitting you and the same goes for monsters.
Even without it, you'll have Natural Armor equal to a Paladin in +4 Plate, +5 if you shift into Dragon Form. All in all, you remain pretty comparable, but you don't completely steal the show. This is as it should be.
The highest natural armor bonus in core would be +23 (kobold sorcerer 10/dragon disciple 10 with Improved Natural Armor (10))
Wow, thats a lot of natural armor for a small creature. Thats one more natural armor then an Adult Gold Dragon has and thats a huge creature.
The highest natural armor bonus in core would be +23 (kobold sorcerer 10/dragon disciple 10 with Improved Natural Armor (10))Wow, thats a lot of natural armor for a small creature. Thats one more natural armor then an Adult Gold Dragon has and thats a huge creature.
Yes, but the Kobold had to sacrifice every feat he has to do it. Not to mention that all that natural armor isn't really gonna help him once the touch AC stuff comes up.
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Even without it, you'll have Natural Armor equal to a Paladin in +4 Plate, +5 if you shift into Dragon Form. All in all, you remain pretty comparable, but you don't completely steal the show. This is as it should be.
How exactly do you steal the show by being hard to hit? Paladins aren't impressive because of their AC, they are impressive because of their offensive capabilities. Same goes for fighters. And an amulet of natural armor is pretty standard for any character, especially frontline fighters and paladins.
Even without it, you'll have Natural Armor equal to a Paladin in +4 Plate, +5 if you shift into Dragon Form. All in all, you remain pretty comparable, but you don't completely steal the show. This is as it should be.How exactly do you steal the show by being hard to hit? Paladins aren't impressive because of their AC, they are impressive because of their offensive capabilities. Same goes for fighters. And an amulet of natural armor is pretty standard for any character, especially frontline fighters and paladins.
I was using an expression more than anything else, but since you asked...
If a character dies after the first round of combat because anything greater than a 2 will hit them, then they're not really contributing. On the opposite side, if a character needs a 20 to be hit, then they can tank all day long, more or less. Along with the impressive combat abilities of the DD, it also has the staying power. Without that staying power, it wouldn't be a viable combatant.
Also, while an AoNA is 'standard' as you say, so are things like Bracers of Armor for casters, giving the DD a comparable AC to a Paladin or Fighter.
I would venture to say that any 20th melee character would have purchased an amulet of Natural armor +5 and or over 9000 other things besides the armor on there backs.
A sorcerer wouldn't be relying on his Natural armor alone and Mage Armor doesn't give a spell failure chance.
I would venture to say that any 20th melee character would have purchased an amulet of Natural armor +5 and or over 9000 other things besides the armor on there backs.
A sorcerer wouldn't be relying on his Natural armor alone and Mage Armor doesn't give a spell failure chance.
Neither do Bracers of Armor, and they go up to +8. Also, this is assuming that Magic Items are for sale in the campaign world, which in mine they almost universally are not.
In my original comparison, I was comparing a fighter's Armor to a DD's Natural Armor and saying that even with all that 'craziness', it's still on par, and neither underpowered nor overpowered. The reason that I didn't include any other AC items was because they weren't applicable to the discussion. Seriously, I don't understand why this is an issue. You asked about Natural Armor stacking, I answered your question and tried to assuage your fears about NA becoming crazy. I'm not seeing where the problem is and why everyone seems to take issue with my comparison.
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A full plate +5 costs less than bracers of armor +8 and grants a much higher bonus to AC. And the shield bonus a +5 heavy shield grants is much higher than that of a shield spell.
For a sorcerer, spells like blur and mirror image are much better ways to avoid getting hit than pure AC.
In my original comparison, I was comparing a fighter's Armor to a DD's Natural Armor and saying that even with all that 'craziness', it's still on par, and neither underpowered nor overpowered. The reason that I didn't include any other AC items was because they weren't applicable to the discussion. Seriously, I don't understand why this is an issue. You asked about Natural Armor stacking, I answered your question and tried to assuage your fears about NA becoming crazy. I'm not seeing where the problem is and why everyone seems to take issue with my comparison.
But you did include other items. Somehow, the Dragon Disciple had access to an Amulet of Natural Armor while the fighter hadn't. So, in that comparison the AC of your DD would probably 5 points lower.
I have no problem with the way natural armor stacks, by the way.
A full plate +5 costs less than bracers of armor +8 and grants a much higher bonus to AC. And the shield bonus a +5 heavy shield grants is much higher than that of a shield spell.
For a sorcerer, spells like blur and mirror image are much better ways to avoid getting hit than pure AC.In my original comparison, I was comparing a fighter's Armor to a DD's Natural Armor and saying that even with all that 'craziness', it's still on par, and neither underpowered nor overpowered. The reason that I didn't include any other AC items was because they weren't applicable to the discussion. Seriously, I don't understand why this is an issue. You asked about Natural Armor stacking, I answered your question and tried to assuage your fears about NA becoming crazy. I'm not seeing where the problem is and why everyone seems to take issue with my comparison.But you did include other items. Somehow, the Dragon Disciple had access to an Amulet of Natural Armor while the fighter hadn't. So, in that comparison the AC of your DD would probably 5 points lower.
I have no problem with the way natural armor stacks, by the way.
I was addressing the question to the OP, but whatever. You seem to have missed the point. I didn't add in 'other' AC bonuses, as I was comparing the DD's Natural Armor (inherant class bonus and enhancement AoNA bonus) to the Fighter's Armor (natural Plate and magical enhancement). I wasn't saying what items everyone had access to, I was straight comparing the DD's Natural Armor to the Fighter's metal Armor. Obviously everyone is going to have access to other magical items, I didn't feel it necessary to bring up. The fighter will have access to an AoNA, and the DD is going to have access to Bracers of Armor. Both will have Rings of Protection. That's not applicable to the discussion at hand, which is how does natural armor work, and is it unbalanced. Again, I don't see what the problem here is.
Is there even a situation were natural armor doesn't stack?
A simple example would be a lizardfolk (natural armor +5) taking 7 levels of the Savage Barbarian archetype (gives natural armor +1). They wouldn't stack.
That is simpler!