Darkvision and Hide in plain sight -HELP :)

[Zexcir]

Okay,
SO I'm asking this question because in my campaign alot of the characters have darkvision or use a spell to give them darkvision. They are going against opponents that can hide in plain sight or use shadow jump. So my question is three fold:

1) Do players see shadows in darkvision? I know they see objects in black and white, but what if there is a crate or wooden fence... would the player see a shadowy illumination from the crate..

2) Is hide in plain sight useless against someone with darkvision? At higher levels most enemies have either dark vision or some kind of vision enhancement. So is hide in plain sight heavily limited?

3)If someone is in a "shadow" and their enemies have darkvision can they still use shadow jump right in their face?

[TriOmegaZero]

2) Darkvision does not remove the shadows, only allows the creature to see in shadows. Thus, the hidden character can still make Hide checks, and the creature with darkvision must still roll a Perception check.

3) See above.

This is not official, and as this has been argued countless times in the past I am certain someone will be along to tell me I am wrong. Sorry I can't help you with 1.

[Zexcir]

I know in the past that a character was trying to sneak in the dark, but a creature with darkvision saw him as he was literally 10 feet from him. I would agree that a character/monster would see someone when they are 10 feet in front of them if they are just "hiding." However hide in plain sight is a little different because it's a special ability that says "Can hide in plain sight even while being observed as long as they are near shadows. Since it's a special ability I would feel bad to take it away from them due to darkvision.

[KingHades]

It depends on the level of darkness they're hiding in. Dim light or darker counts as concealment and allows Stealth checks to be made inside it. However, those with darkvision can see clearly in dim light or darkness, hence negating the concealment which the Stealthed character is relying on to hide. However, if the darkened area is supernaturally dark, such as through the use of a "Deeper Darkness" spell, darkvision cannot penetrate it. In that case, it still provides concealment and ANYONE can use Stealth inside it.

Hide in Plain Sight's big advantage is that you can attack from concealment and re-Stealth while your opponent(s) is/are looking right at you and you take no negative, need to make no diversion, etc. Anyone can Stealth in dim light; it's just that after they've revealed themself, they can't re-Stealth very easily. And of course, if their opponent has low-light vision or darkvision, they better also have cover to hide behind or their Stealth gets eradicated when their opponent basically ignores the darkness-based concealment they're Stealthed in.

Hope that helps. I know it's tough to wrap your mind around, but that's how it seems to work.

[Tom Baumbach]

The Vision and Light rules clear this up.

Vision and Light wrote:

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

Shadows don't come into the equation; if there's cover or invisibility (or in the case of HiPS, shadows), one can hide.

In other words, darkvision ignores concealment due to light conditions, and a character can't use concealment from shadows to hide from a character with darkvision.

EDIT: Yeah, note the exceptions KingHades brings up. Magic can alter the normal rules.

[Ravingdork]

Darkvision beats stealth checks made to hide in the shadows.

Darkvision does NOT defeat stealth checks made to use Hide in Plain Sight (since the shadows exist whether or not someone can see through them and their existence is all that matters for someone using HiPS).

[Zexcir]

Tom Baumbach wrote:

The Vision and Light rules clear this up.

Vision and Light wrote:

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

Shadows don't come into the equation; if there's cover or invisibility (or in the case of HiPS, shadows), one can hide.

In other words, darkvision ignores concealment due to light conditions, and a character can't use concealment from shadows to hide from a character with darkvision.

EDIT: Yeah, note the exceptions KingHades brings up. Magic can alter the normal rules.

I have been trying to find something that explains darkvision and creatures hiding and that helps clear things up alot. This will also help me explain it to my players. Which is the biggest issue. I have a player who wants to see it in the RAW when I make a decision that goes against their "Schticks." Which I agree. I don't really want to hamper someone who is supposed to be "super sneaky" without being able to back it up.

Thanks alot everyone.

[Glutton]

everyone please faq the first post as it has been asked on this board at least 20 times

[Havelock]

PRD wrote:

Darkvision

Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

PRD wrote:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su):

A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

[Emphasis mine.]

"Hide in Plain Sight" is not "Hide in Shadows." Also the Assassin gets the same ability at 8th level, but has no other supernatural affinity for shadows.

[BenignFacist]

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O_O It's.. happening.... AGAIN!1!!!

*drops to the floor, assumes to foetal position, gently rocks back and forth whislt gibbering..*

..the horror ..the horror...

*shakes fi... gibber gibber drool..*

[Stubs McKenzie]

I agree with most everything being said so far... with a little bit to add:

To answer question 1) If there is no light to cast shadows, then no shadows can be seen with darkvision, so in total darkness, someone with darkvision does not see any shadows. That does not mean that the darkness doesn't exist. If a lvl 1 rogue attempted to hide in the darkness without anything else around, then their hide attempt would be negated by darkvision.

2) If Hide in Plain Sight is being used, however, even a creature with darkvision would not be able to detect that character automatically, but would get a perception roll to see them. The way I view it is something like a trick of the eye, one moment you see the stealther, the next moment they have slipped from view, seemingly into nowhere (or at least they tried to, with a high enough perception roll you might see exactly what they did and punish them for it :P). The bigger question is if you allow someone with darkvision to detect shadows at all... I would, as some sort of outline or some such, but I could see how some would say darkvision wouldn't allow you to detect if there was a shadow there in the first place, as they see right through the darkness, and through the better lit areas with black and white vision. If that's the case a character with darkvision is probably going to be at a disadvantage when it comes to hide in plain sight, as they couldn't narrow down where the stealther might be.

3)No reason not to be able to.

[james maissen]

Zexcir wrote:

Okay,

SO I'm asking this question because in my campaign alot of the characters have darkvision or use a spell to give them darkvision. They are going against opponents that can hide in plain sight or use shadow jump.

A character with darkvision does not suffer concealment against targets within shadow (aka dim light).

A character with hide in plain sight can hide without the need for concealment if they are within 10' of dim light.

The two are not related, though often confused.

Normally in order to hide one has to first be unobserved then maintain either cover or concealment relative to potential observers to remain hidden from them.

A character with darkvision would not have concealment penalties against someone in dim light. However against someone with Hide in plain sight it would not matter.

There have been long drawn out threads on this, but the rules are crystal clear.

-James

[DeathQuaker]

I realize this has essentially been resolved but I would note that:

Hide in Plain SIGHT suggests sight-based abilities do not prevent from HIPS from happening.